Dogma

[El Exorcisto]

After last night's locked thread extravaganza on functional training I got thinking about the dogma that so many people in the fitness and strength training worlds get hung up on. This isn't a thread meant to start argument or even much of a debate, but more about trying to understand why, with the availability of the amount of solid information at our fingertips now, why do so many people remain hung up on one individual's approach to getting stronger and/or leaner and the denial of all other approaches?

 

Mark Rippetoe insists that one needs to squat and eat 6000+ calories daily to get strong.

 

Glassman insists that only his definition of "functional" movements be practiced.

 

The paleo diet insists that "clean" eating is the only path to optimal body composition.

 

 Then there is the phenomenon of people who not only follow dogma handed to them without backing and data that has for a very long time along with basic biology/physiology has been proven to be outright falsehood.

 

A calorie isn't a calorie according to the clean eating crowd.

 

Rippetoe and Mehdi say you will get bigger arms from doing squats.

 

Squats acutely increase testosterone and therefore make all of your lifts go up.

 

Doing direct ab work will give me visible abs.

 

These points are not up for contention, let me make that clear. There are hundreds of others that can be added to the list, but it is the the trend that is up for comment. Why is it that with all of the information available and the experiences of successful people in the strength training and fitness worlds that people continue to try to either reinvent the wheel, or ignore that the wheel was invented in the first place?

[Flex Luthor]

Actually one of the most confusing thing to me are the fact that a lot of people in the fitness community seem to not realize that there is more than one way to "get in shape". The other is this us vs. them mentality so many groups have. I love this video I'm going to link because Rich articulates perfectly why it's so dumb. He relates it to bodybuilding but I think his attitude should apply to the entire community.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FctKVb_bL9Y

[sylph]

Why is it that with all of the information available and the experiences of successful people in the strength training and fitness worlds that people continue to try to either reinvent the wheel, or ignore that the wheel was invented in the first place?

My opinions:

1. People (in general) are lazy and want a quick answer. 'Crunches will get you abs' is a lot simpler than 'First build enough ab muscle, then diet down to reduce your overall bodyfat such that they become visible.
2. Information overload. There is SO MUCH information readily available that sifting through the dross is very difficult. Sure, the 'right' information is out there, but it's so diluted with 'wrong' information that sorting one from the other is difficult.
3. Touched on by Simon: People like to feel like part of a group. It gives them support and (in some cases) a feeling of superiority. "Us vs. Them" is a powerful mentality.
4. Somewhat related to 3: People also like to feel smarter than the average schmoe. If someone's convinced that functional/paleo/GOMAD/squatz 4 Test is THE way, then obviously everything else is wrong. If everything else (or anything else) were 'right,' then that someone would not get to feel so smart. Corollary: people also want to be special special snowflakes.
5. My apologies if this one comes off as insulting to anyone, as it's not my intent: "There is no zealot like a new convert." At the beginning, putting things into black/white or right/wrong gets to be a very intense yet clear process. "No carbs after 7p!" "30g of protein within 30 mins of a workout!" "Clean food only!" As time goes on, and people learn/experience other things, those shades of grey often come more into play.

[Timmy M]

5. so much, i was such an annoying fucker when i found paleo, i'm well aware of the greys now, i just wish i'd seen a bit more of the grey regarding 'curls aren't just for idiot bros' and then i wouldn't have the dodgy elbow i have now (finally healing up thank Darwin, rest, broth and glucosamine tablets ftw)

[JCDenton]

7. They have to be different to sell their books/videos/websites

 

Another thing to add is that small differences in body composition will pre-determine that certain techniques work better for some people than others. It's kind of like UFC: Tall, long-limbed guys tend to be better suited to striking styles, while shorter, stockier guys are better suited for grappling styles. This isn't set in stone: you could overcome this and become a great grappler, even though you're suited for striking.

[El Exorcisto]

I guess my concern is that there seem to be so many people that continue to live in a faerie tale of absolutes even after the initial conversion period is over. I understand the groupthink concept and the "us vs. them" thing for the beginners as everyone needs to feel that they are doing what the successful people are doing. Later on though, with the amount of information available, the chinks in the armour of whatever cult the initiate has hopped on board with should become evident.

 

Just reading between T-Nation, EliteFTS, and Bodybuilding.com has shown me no less than 100 different training systems all of which resulting in the desired outcome for the person using it. Why is it that someone who has broken past the "squats and milk" or "kip til you rhabdo" phases completely ignore the elephant in the room? The elephant being that outside of the outright unintelligable training templates put together by pencil necks and rank novices, all training works. The same can be said for diet once a few facts are accepted and the sensationalism is dismissed. Some training systems and diets work better for different goals, but they all work for someone.

 

Why do fanatics who have reached an intermediate or higher point in their strength, fitness, or leanness still insist that someone else's training system or diet is substandard or worse if it works for their goals?

[bigm141414]

 

 

Why do fanatics who have reached an intermediate or higher point in their strength, fitness, or leanness still insist that someone else's training system or diet is substandard or worse if it works for their goals?

 

 

Because they didn't do the other program/diet/etc. And they base all of their beliefs on their experience and think that their n=1 experiment is all there is. 

 

There is a psychological phenomenon called "What You See is All There Is"  and people can't get passed it. 

[sylph]

Why do fanatics who have reached an intermediate or higher point in their strength, fitness, or leanness still insist that someone else's training system or diet is substandard or worse if it works for their goals?

I've bolded your important word.

There are plenty of folks around who have a useful, realistic view on fitness (start with the basics but experiment, find out what works for YOU). But for every 100 of those people on BB.com or elsewhere, there's 1 dude yelling at the top of his lungs that his way is the only way and only through him can you find fitness nirvana, because it's a super duper secret that those 100 sensible pragmatic folks don't want you to find out because they're keeping it all for themselves.

[chairohkey]

Came here thinking we'd be discussing the Kevin Smith flick.

 

 

On topic. I've been there, was a die hard Ripptard "GOMAD OR GO HOME!" in the beginning but could care less now. The longer I'm in the lifting game the more my fitness philosophy mirrors my economic one, Laissez-faire.

[SteelShield]

I rarely use the term thought-provoking, but this thread definitely qualifies. I've bounced from one program to another since college (DAMN YOU ENGINEERING TYPE-A-NESS), but in the last few months I've decided that whatever works for someone, works for a reason, and that's it.Thanks for getting this out there, Double E.

[SteelShield]

I reserve the right to judge people for curling in the squat rack, tho.

[Knightwatch]

All I have to add has already need said. I don't get why people can't just let each other be. But anyway, I ran across an interesting term today, UTD, or Universal Trainers Disease. It's basically this.

[Knightwatch]

I reserve the right to judge people for curling in the squat rack, tho.

Best arm workout I ever had was partial curls in the power rack actually, and it was authored by Pavel, a guy most people would be willing to call a legit strength coach.

Just sayin'.

[Flex Luthor]

Because they didn't do the other program/diet/etc. And they base all of their beliefs on their experience and think that their n=1 experiment is all there is. 

 

There is a psychological phenomenon called "What You See is All There Is"  and people can't get passed it. 

 

So much this.

 

There was a video where Elliott Hulse I believe says that the only reason people don't respect other disciplines is because they themselves have never tried it.

[Timmy M]

but could care less 

OK! i respect you guys, but if you yanks don't stop with this there's gonna be trouble!

 

 

ya dig dawg? YA DIG?!?!?!?!?!?

[El Exorcisto]

SteelShield, I just have to throw it out there... Type-a-ness sounds like Type-Anus.

 

I'm hoping Why Not will chime in and give his take on the phenomenon at some point.

 

On an unrelated note, what the fuck is a Fran time?

[Timmy M]

how quickly you do the WOD 'Fran', thrusters and pullups (kipping obv) 21reps, 15 reps, 9 reps i believe

[El Exorcisto]

Got it... so an arbitrary metric of strength and/or conditioning.

[Timmy M]

isn't that the point?

[El Exorcisto]

Indeed, that's what all of us are all about.

[OperaChica]

I may have just mildly ranted about this in the paleo forum ha ha!

 

Everybody is different, different things work for different people. I don't really care what people do if it works for them and they are happy and healthy, more power to you!

 

I hate when people tell me what I am happy in and what works for me is not as good as what they are doing.  I am working towards a strength competition.  There are several crossfit folks who train with me and will not leave me alone about doing 'WODs' with them. I have what I am training for and it is not crossfit. (NOT a judgement on crossfit, just my currently life experience). Nagging and extreme negativity are what I cannot stand.

 

They tell me I have to run 5Ks and learn to kip to be a better lifter and I do not enjoy that stuff. I enjoy my iron-therapy damnit!

[Flex Luthor]

There are right and wrong ways to train. 100 push ups a day will not help you bench more. The interesting thing to me is when people who do not train for the results that you want tell you you're wrong. There was this personal trainer who was in fantastic shape at my old gym. Could have competed in bodybuilding, I don't know if he did. Anyway, we got to talking one day and he asked me how I trained. I told him how and he basically told me I was wrong for training that way and should do a split workout and blah, blah, blah. That's a great workout and works well for bodybuilding. Not so much for strength but he tried to make my goals his goals and people in the community do this a lot. Why would I train like a bodybuilder if I don't want to be a bodybuilder or vice versa for powerlifting. People cannot wrap their heads around this very simple concept and it frustrates me. Anyone have any insight into this? I think it's a little different than what bigm described although there's definitely a lot of that in the community as well.

[El Exorcisto]

I think there is a lot of confusion by everyone both in and out of the iron game, about the purposes of training. Bodybuilders rarely train for limit strength while powerlifters rarely condition well. Football players train for both but outside of some vanity curls train very little for physique. Crossfitters train as prescribed or to compete, while Strongmen train limit strength and endurance, but their 40 time and six pack are irrelevant. The only common thread between any of these people is that they use a barbell in pursuit of their goals. The problem is, that is where the similarity stops and that confuses the shit out of just about everyone.

[Flex Luthor]

I'm waiting for why not to chime in. Interested to see his perspective.

[SteelShield]

SteelShield, I just have to throw it out there... Type-a-ness sounds like Type-Anus.

Awwww shit. *facepalm*

This is what happens when I get used to Christmas gift coffee, run out, and start drinking the store brand again...

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