Are there any 4HBers here?

[DerekP]

I've been accused of shilling 4HB so I'm not gonna write the name in full, but I'm interested in interesting hacks you might have for the slow-carb approach.

 

 

I'll start the ball rolling...

 

 

Success with wine? Reds only work for me - and no more than 2 glasses.

 

Other drinks? Very interesting... I can still lose for the day if I do a whipped cream vodka martini or 2! I add a squirt of Dasani sugar-free Coconut/Pineapple flavoring, shake with ice and enjoy! (splash of water helps)  If you get carried away though it wrecks your weight loss for that day and the next.

 

Compliant energy drinks? Monster white actually works for me. I can be compliant (lose weight) if I have one after breakfast. Very successful with this

 

Compliant shakes? NOW whey isolate has a 0 carb protein mix. It's awesome. See my "Best Shake EVER" post. Totally compliant.

 

Combine with HIT resistence? HIIT sprint workouts? I'm having very good early results, but too early to tell - ask me in 8 weeks.

 

Does anything interesting stall your loss for the day? Does anything interesting NOT stall your loss for the day?

 

Other fun, interesting ideas on 4HB and/or slow carb?

 

I'd love to hear it!

 

 

 

Derek

[TheCrimsonFist]

I owe a lot to Tim for taking me from "guy who wants to get fit" to "guy who believes he can do it". I lost a ton of weight a year or so ago using Slow Carb, but have had mixed success with some of the other stuff from the book. 

 

Occam's Protocol - Currently on the program, and I'm definitely seeing some results, but nothing even close to the 28 pounds of muscle he built. I'm currently up 6 pounds, and am in my 4th week of 6 on the program. Growth is growth, so I'm not complaining, but I feel like there was more to his results than meets the eye

 

PAGG - Seemed to work. I used it during the first part of my current bulk, and did not notice nearly as much fat gain as I would have expected. Though, I was also training a lot harder than I have in the past, so I am unsure how much PAGG had to do with it.

 

Eating The Elephant - This definitely helped me get my bench press up a while back. I didn't go through the whole program, but the technique of utilizing the three separate grips definitely worked to build the starting and finishing power I needed at the time.

 

To touch on one of your questions posed, regarding energy drinks, nothing tops Redline in my book. It fits the dietary restrictions of Slow Carb, and works like nobodies business for giving energy. I drink it pre-workout and can go for hours. Though, if you want a more moderate level of energy for general daily stuff, I highly recommend just some wheatgrass and ginger juice. 

[DerekP]

Thanks, Fist.

 

I'm not sure I see any real difference when I use PAGG compared to when I don't. I lost my first 40 without it.

 

Most of the research I've been reading has come to the conclusion that grains consumption is fairly unhealthy - at least significantly less healthy than many alternatives. So I've begun mostly avoiding it - though now that I think about it, wheatgrass implies that you're not eating the kernel. Is that accurate?

 

I think it's important to not underestimate the importance of creatine in his mass gain. Possibly the fact that he was previously larger is a significant factor as well. Creatine adds water to muscle cells which contributes to muscle volume and performance, but it's impermanent. Quit creatine and the water goes away, taking most of the performance with it. Though the increased strength while on it should help you increase muscle fiber as you're able to increase load, frequency, and TUT. But you just won't get anywhere near those results without creatine. And he also says that he's waaay out on the fringe of the curve for mass gain. In short, 6 pounds in 4 weeks is great!

 

I'll give Redline a shot. Can't hurt to have more options. Thanks, man.

[TheCrimsonFist]

Regarding wheatgrass vs wheat: They are the same plant, but wheatgrass is harvested very young before it sprouts the grain. So, you get a whole different layout of nutrients from each. Wheatgrass is a green, and is completely acceptable under slow-carb regulations. Not to mention it is jam packed with goodness. Back when I could afford to, I used to drink it daily. The effect it has on your mood and your stable energy levels is astonishing. Throwing in the ginger juice is great for giving the extra boost you would want when looking at things like energy drinks.

 

Regarding Redline: If you buy it, definitely make sure you don't exceed the recommended dosage (half the bottle). It is very potent stuff, and people have had very adverse side effects when they overdose. In fact, I would recommend trying 1/4 bottle first and gauge it's effects before taking the full dosage.

 

Regarding Occam's: I am almost sure that much of his results was regaining previous mass, but I'm not complaining about not hitting the high results he got. Doing Occam's has taught me a lot about my body and what works/doesn't work for growing mass. I have 2 more weeks to go on the program, and am going to be tweaking it a bit with stuff I know works well for me to try and maximize results.

[DerekP]

Thanks, CF. I figured that was the case re: wheatgrass but never really looked in to it.

 

Curious... are you doing creatine?

[TheCrimsonFist]

Aside from whey, I'm pretty horrible about remembering to take supplements. So, I went out and purchased some whey that had creatine and glutamine pre-mixed in. Even so, my intake of creatine varies depending on how much of my protein intake I need to supplement (1 scoop = 30g Protein 3g Creatine).

 

So, in answer to your question: Kinda.

[MizBlackCrow]

I'm in the TF / 4HB camp too. I lost 27# in the first 6 weeks a while back with SCD.... and then fell off the wagon and gained it all back. Now I'm starting again with SCD.

 

I've been following Occam's as a weightlifting guide, not in terms of trying to gain but trying to gain strength and using the excess caloric demand to try to lose weight. Also combining with sprints to try and get some EPOC going.

 

Am I totally off my rocker for trying to use Occam's Protocol to cut?

[TheCrimsonFist]

Honestly, MizBlackCrow, you might have better success with a different program to meet your goals. Occam's is designed to be a mass building program (the slow pace of the movements and exercising to failure are classic bodybuilding techniques). The movements themselves aren't a bad choice, but if you're trying to drop weight and gain strength, I'd at least tweak the program to where you are moving the weight with more speed, pick a set amount of reps/sets instead of going to failure, and avoid the increasing space between training sessions

[MizBlackCrow]

Thanks! I had looked later in the book at the Effortless Superhuman section for something closer to my needs, but the deadlift quite frankly scares me (I have a mild scoliosis and a history of pulling muscles in my lower back; I'm debating using lightweight kettlebell swings for back strength before moving to a heavier-weight lift like a DL). It also involves using plyo boxes for box-jumps and box-pushups, which aren't available at my gym.

 

Any suggestions on where to look for a better lifting program for weightloss?

[DerekP]

MizBC,

 

Lifting and weight loss are 2 separate things. You can combine them, but they aren't necessarily mutually advantageous.

 

That is, assuming by lifting you mean lifting to increase strength and muscle size.

 

Optimizing fat loss and optimizing mass gain are at odds with one another. To optimize fat loss you need to minimize insulin spikes, keeping blood sugar on the low side. This is why SCD works so well; it minimizes insulin production. High insulin tells your body to use glucose to make ATP, so you burn much more glucose rather than fat. It also tells your fat cells to stop releasing fat. In fact insulin helps your body store fat.

 

To optimize muscle growth, you need elevated insulin for muscle to synthesize protein (amino acids). This is why you hear strength trainers and body builders saying to make sure you're getting enough carb when trying to build strength and mass - by eating more carbs, we produce more insulin. This isn't in any way meant to be a complete description, just a helpful overview.

 

You can build strength and mass while eating lower carbs, but you can’t optimize strength and mass building with low insulin – protein intake boosts insulin enough to build muscle, but not enough to optimize muscle growth.

 

That said, it’s very difficult to lose fat without maintaining low insulin levels. So if you concentrate on building strength it’s very difficult to lose fat, but if you concentrate on losing fat you can still make strength gains, just not as fast as on higher carb diets. This is why I prefer concentrating on fat loss until you get close to your goal body comp. That’s not to say don’t lift – please do - but there’s greater outcome-advantage to concentrating on fat-loss until you approach your near-goal body composition. I’ve run out of hyphens. Damn.

 

Back issues:

 

I might suggest doing safe straight leg dead lifts for your lower back, or using a lower back machine. I like kettle bell swings, but the force at the bottom of your swing is potentially very damaging if you already have back issues, and using lighter weight KBs won’t ramp up your metabolism in the ways I think you’re looking for.

 

Doing Str8 Leg DLs very slowly (HIT Style) is a great way to build the muscle while minimizing the force because you’re taking speed out of the equation. You can pick a weight that makes you feel fatigued after 8 or ten reps - I prefer hand dumbbells to barbells for this. Don’t straighten up on top – when you get close just start the bending process again. Clearly don’t go to failure on these. Don’t even go to deep fatigue - just til your back feels good and tired. Once you can do this weight 12 or 13 reps add 5 pounds. Definitely a safe way to strengthen your back. It’s likely you will see fast development as well.

 

I think doing sprint training or some sort of HIIT is an excellent compliment to HIT lifting (HIT being the primary approach that TF talks about). One thing I do that I’ve found very effective is to not eat for an hour after working out. You’re body is on a big afterburn after a HIT lift or a HIIT workout, and eating will spike your insulin, taking you out of optimal fat burning mode. I like to ride the heightened metabolism wave for a bit before I eat.

 

I hope there’s some helpful info for you here.

 

Derek

[MizBlackCrow]

Derek,

 

Thanks for the explanations and advice! Ignoring the need to feed for an hour after a workout does sound handy. My goal with weightlifting is not primarily to gain muscle mass (though it would be nice to have some muscles revealed when the fat sheds away), but rather to increase strength. This is especially important since my job occasionally (daily) requires some heavy lifting on its own similar to a deadlift--it's where my original lower back sprain came from.

 

My hope with using a protocol like Occam's was to get the same metabolic demands as someone trying to build mass (it certainly gets my heart rate up!), and then force my body to meet them with fat (rather than caloric overload). Since it sounds like protein storage for muscle growth is primarily insulin-dependent, I may modify the protocol as suggested.

 

One thing I like about the 4HB and NF communities: Everyone in them is stupendously helpful. Thank you guys for all the input!!