No squats and deadlifts? CARDIO?

[zdub]

Okay. Here are my goals:

Endurance - I want to be able to run far, fast.

Upper body strength - Be able to do lots of pushups, pullups AND have a decent bench and overhead press.

So what I'm wondering is: is it okay if I don't do squats and deadlifts and just stick with my cardio (5-7 milers, 1-3 milers, HIIT (Tabata and stadium stair running) while continuing to do upper body weightlifting (DB bench and press)? Will there be problems with an unbalance between my lower and upper body?

I'm training for combat fitness, so I use dumbbells to work the stabilizer muscles as well. I'm not really concerned with getting HUGE lift numbers. Sometimes I will incorporate a weighted vest into my cardio/lower body workouts (20# vest for squats, lunges, stairs, etc.). So my legs are getting somewhat of a weighted workout. However, dropping squats and deadlifts would allow me to do more cardio and really improve my run times since I wouldn't need recovery time from the weightlifting.

EDIT: I'm doing a tough mudder in October which I feel really applies to my goals. I want to be able to run far, fast (it's 9 miles) while having the upper body strength to tackle obstacles quickly. Just to give you all a better idea of what I'm going for.

Ideas?

Thanks. If you need more info, let me know.

Current condition: Decent endurance run wise - 3 miles in less than 19 minutes. I'm working my upper body a lot right now. Trying to get my bench up (currently at 45# DBs 5x5) as well as my pushups (I really suck at pushups). Also working on pullups - currently can do ~15 deadhang pullups, hoping to get to at least 20. My cardio has mainly consisted of stadium stairs and some HIIT (sprints) since I've been trying to build my upper body since I got back from OCS.

[spezzy]

However, dropping squats and deadlifts would allow me to do more cardio and really improve my run times since I wouldn't need recovery time from the weightlifting.

what you're not thinking about here is how the strength will help your run times.

there are other things that can help your cardio other than running.

if you're going to do something, do it right - don't do half of it. train your whole body.

[Zima]

Same question here, actually...just how BAD is it to not do squats? It's the lift that generates the most testosterone, leading to overall muscle growth...I know this.

Does being a runner help the situation at all, since your legs still end up getting a workout?

Like the above poster, my goals are overall strength and endurance, but also an aesthetically pleasing physique. That means increasing muscle mass further while maintaining/lowering bf%. For most people, that means doing squats. For me...well, I already have fairly big hips and quads thanks to genetics. Big as in muscle and bone, not fat. Not to mention I've done heavy deadlifts and squats for a long time in the past, which added to size in that area. So, to have a physique that looks balanced, it's in my best interest to not put on more size there. It's also in the best interest of my jeans and dress pants, as I wear slim fit pants...because I look like a tool in regular ones.

My answer to the above poster, however, is...do squats and deadlifts on one day once a week. They're good compound moves that work lots of muscles and stimulate overall growth, and leg strength will help you in your other goals. Do light cardio the day after - you don't need to push yourself like crazy on EVERY single run, so save your shortest/slowest run for that day. Light cardio will actually *help* the soreness.

[zdub]

Okay, after doing some research (Google) about squat and deadlift helping out with running,I've decided to work squats and deadlifts into my routine. Like Zima recommended, I'm thinking once a week so I have plenty of days for rest and for cardio. I understand I won't see quick gains in weight, but as I said before, I'm not so concerned with weight, especially for squats and deadlifts.

Thanks for the recommendations and help.

[67alecto]

It seems like what is being unsaid is "Squats/deadlifts are hard, and I don't want to do them".

They are hard because they work big chains of muscles. They aren't going to make your legs big unless you're eating 4000 calories a day and lifting heavy 3-4 times a week (and even then, you may hardly see any gains). What they will do is make your legs more defined. In 6 months, my squat went from the bar to 405 pounds while I was losing 100lbs. And I went from not being able to wear size 40 pants because I couldn't get them past my calves/thighs without cutting off circulation to wearing size 34" jeans with no problems at all.

[andygates]

"dropping squats and deadlifts would allow me to do more cardio and really improve my run times since I wouldn't need recovery time from the weightlifting."

That's not complaining about squats and deadlifts being hard. That's the runner's squat recovery complaint -- I know it well, from when I was trying to balance squats and triathlon and having wooden legs for days and it Just Wasn't Working.

Zdub, what is your current squat routine?

[Guest Carjack]

If you get sore from squats, you haven't squatted enough.

[andygates]

That's what I'm leading up to: regular squats but not done to failure, and you can run and bike and whatever because it just works that way.

Once a week bodybuilder style pyramid squats to failure, and you'll be more sore for longer. They invite the error of not squatting more often. My guess is that this is where our poster is.

[Zima]

It seems like what is being unsaid is "Squats/deadlifts are hard, and I don't want to do them".

They are hard because they work big chains of muscles. They aren't going to make your legs big unless you're eating 4000 calories a day and lifting heavy 3-4 times a week (and even then, you may hardly see any gains). What they will do is make your legs more defined. In 6 months, my squat went from the bar to 405 pounds while I was losing 100lbs. And I went from not being able to wear size 40 pants because I couldn't get them past my calves/thighs without cutting off circulation to wearing size 34" jeans with no problems at all.

Yeah, no one complained about them being hard. Hard is good. You should know better than to accuse runners and weight lifters of complaining about THAT.

And the problem is not *big* like bodybuilder big - the problem is big enough to make my body look less proportional and for my pants to get too tight. Yes, I actually noticed the difference in that regard when I go back to doing squats for a while.

[Timmy M]

the problem is big enough to make my body look less proportional and for my pants to get too tight.

i still deadlift (don't squat right now due to an injury) even though i had to give away a pair of jean simply because i couldn't even jog/bike properly in them, even day to day walking was troublesome lol, they weren't even skinny jeans

[zdub]

"dropping squats and deadlifts would allow me to do more cardio and really improve my run times since I wouldn't need recovery time from the weightlifting."

That's not complaining about squats and deadlifts being hard. That's the runner's squat recovery complaint -- I know it well, from when I was trying to balance squats and triathlon and having wooden legs for days and it Just Wasn't Working.

Zdub, what is your current squat routine?

Like andygates said, it's not that they are hard, but that they require time that could be spent on cardio.

Routine-wise, I'm following the Strong Lifts 5x5 idea. Slowly increasing weight. Are you saying that as long as I'm not sore, that running the next day shouldn't be a problem?

I suppose if I went on my long runs the day after doing squats/deadlifts I would be working the slow-twitch muscle fibers instead of the fast-twitch fibers used in weightlifting, but I'm not an exercise physiology expert (hence asking on the forum). I'd have to save the sprints/stair runs for later (although they are my favorite workouts). How bad would it be to do a sprint/stair run workout the day after weightlifting?

Thanks for all the input so far. I guess one of the things I'm worried about is getting adequate recovery time while still getting as many workouts in as possible. Trying to get the most for my "money", so to say.

[Knightwatch]

If you're doing this for "combat fitness", then there is no question. You really need to deadlift and squat. Especially deadlift. If you're doing this to look like someone that does combat fitness, well, that's a whole 'nother barrel of fish.

[Guest Carjack]

What the hell is combat fitness? Is zdub joining the army?

[Jon Umber]

Like andygates said, it's not that they are hard, but that they require time that could be spent on cardio.

Routine-wise, I'm following the Strong Lifts 5x5 idea. Slowly increasing weight. Are you saying that as long as I'm not sore, that running the next day shouldn't be a problem?

I suppose if I went on my long runs the day after doing squats/deadlifts I would be working the slow-twitch muscle fibers instead of the fast-twitch fibers used in weightlifting, but I'm not an exercise physiology expert (hence asking on the forum). I'd have to save the sprints/stair runs for later (although they are my favorite workouts). How bad would it be to do a sprint/stair run workout the day after weightlifting?

Thanks for all the input so far. I guess one of the things I'm worried about is getting adequate recovery time while still getting as many workouts in as possible. Trying to get the most for my "money", so to say.

I would rather double up and do both in one day and save the next for a total rest day. Lift in the morning, cardio after work maybe. Stronglifts is very heavy on squats though and you might burn out anyway. Make sure you're eating enough, too.

[zdub]

What the hell is combat fitness? Is zdub joining the army?

I'm note sure how else to explain it except that it is fitness geared towards combat. Kind of like functional fitness for the military you could say. And to the question about joining the military, I went to 6 weeks of Marine Corps OCS (PLC-Juniors) this past summer. While I've come to the conclusion I don't want to be an officer, it is still very likely I will enlist in the Marine Corps or go for Army Rangers after I graduate.

I think I'm going to go with doing squats and deadlifts on the same day. Not sure yet if I'm also going to try and do cardio on the same day. Regardless, the next day will definitely be a rest day. I'm going to start off by doing it once a week and then decide if I want to substitute more cardio for weightlifting. I understand I won't see as fast of progress with my deadlift and squats numbers, but hopefully I'll see it carry over into my cardio performance.

Last question: Do you think it would be okay to do an upper body workout on the rest day after deadlifts/squats? Or do I need to give my whole system a break since I'm working such large muscle groups? Ultimately my whole plan is going to come down to how I feel and if I think I need more rest I'll take it, but just wanted to get some input.

[Guest Carjack]

Most of the military would rather do something that looks like Pilates than actual combat fitness. Expect millions of push ups and sit ups with flutter kicks and 3 milers:

http://www.combatreform.org/apft.htm

I did both squats and deadlifts today. Plus I squatted both Thursday and Friday. It can be done.