Designing a new split weightlifting routine...looking for feedback...

[mizvalentine]

Hi everybody, I'm new here so I hope this is the right place to put this.

I'm working on a 3-day split routine...I had been doing 3-4 days a week full body, but as I'm adding real weight to my lifts I find a split more effective. So I'm wondering what you guys think of this. Balanced? Enough? Too much? Something missing?

I try for 3-5x10 for most everything, as that gets easy I add 5# until I can only do 3x6 with perfect form, then work up to 3-5x10 and then try adding more weight. My goal is strength, then fat loss, and I want to do a pull up, dammit!!

Tues: Legs/Glutes/Stability

- Squats or Sumo Squats (working up to squats AND sumos but my knees can't take it yet)

- Lunges or step back lunges or walking lunges

- Single leg deadlifts

- Bridges (working up to hip thrusts)

- Standing calf raises with dumbbells

- One leg stability exercise (stand on one leg, extend the other leg forward, then back, then across the standing leg, then out to the side; don't put the foot down between sets)

- Lying leglifts and band clamshells

Friday: Chest/Abs/Shoulders/Biceps

- Standing overhead press

- Standing rows

- Bicep curls

- Bench press

- Birddogs

- Side and front planks

- Cable machine isometrics

Sunday: Back & Triceps

- Deadlifts or straight leg deads

- Sumo deads

- Lat pulldowns

- One-arm dumbbell rows

- Rope pulldowns or tricep kickbacks or skullcrushers

- Incline pushups or bodyweight rows

I also walk 2 miles, 3x a week on my off days. I should mention, I've got a bunch of injuries, which I describe here but everything above is Physical Therapist Approved. But that's also why there's some possibly odd seeming exercises in there.

Would love to hear your feedback!!

[Timmy M]

in my opinion it doesn't look too bad as a general lifting plan, bit of extra info need really, how long are you in the gym for? how long have you been training for previously? also going up to 5x10 seems a bit excessive, personally i'd stick with 3 x 10/12 on the isolation moves and on stuff like bench, squat and deadlift go for lower reps and high sets. but it's what works for you, if this is giving you good results then stick with it until it doesn't and WATCH YOUR FORM

[mizvalentine]

Thanks for the questions/feedback!

I try to keep my workouts to around an hour, sometimes I go over a bit. I've been concentrating on resting less between sets so I can get a bit of extra fat burn in there. I've been lifting weights for probably 5 years, but I'm coming back from a lower back injury that took me back to zero in the gym. Only been back doing real workouts for about 5 weeks and only adding significant weight the last 2-3 weeks but its coming back fast.

Interesting about the high sets/low reps on stuff like bench/squat/deads... I do feel WHUPPED after 3x10 on that stuff, not always in a good way... are high sets/low reps more effective for more compound exercises like these?

[Timmy M]

i prefer doing low reps/high sets for the big lifts, i have a day entirely made up of cleans then deadlifts where i go to failure on both, i can be in the gym for an hour or a sometimes a bit more on that day (was monday, hams, and back are aching nicely right now ) but as i said it's what works for you, if, as you say, you're whooped but not in a good way then maybe try a change around, on monday i left the gym not that tired or feeling that weak but from the feeling i got this morning i know i did well (could of maybe done more but being a cripple doesn't appeal to me)

[mizvalentine]

i prefer doing low reps/high sets for the big lifts, i have a day entirely made up of cleans then deadlifts where i go to failure on both, i can be in the gym for an hour or a sometimes a bit more on that day (was monday, hams, and back are aching nicely right now ) but as i said it's what works for you, if, as you say, you're whooped but not in a good way then maybe try a change around, on monday i left the gym not that tired or feeling that weak but from the feeling i got this morning i know i did well (could of maybe done more but being a cripple doesn't appeal to me)

Full hour of cleans and deadlifts--wow! That's something to aspire to in my book, 5-6 sets of deads and I'm *literally* dead haha!

Honestly high sets/low reps never crossed my mind so I'm going to give it a shot... I'm so used to doing 3x10+ for everything for so long that I felt like I was wimping out somehow doing short sets. But I think high sets/low reps might give my disc and knee problems a break on the compound lifts. Thanks for the idea!

[jdanger]

are high sets/low reps more effective for more compound exercises like these?

More effective for who and for what? Who's doing the lifts and why? Considering your injury history I'd have a hard time justifying any high intensity compound lifts for quite a while. I like volume when beginning and coming back from and/or working around injuries. 5x10 will be excessive as the weight goes up but I wouldn't feel like you're missing out by not jumping into heavy triples or similar. Take it slow, keep the form perfect. Remain as pain free as possible.

Consider the traditional 5x5 for the compound lifts as it's a pretty happy mix between max strength work and hypertrophy/muscle endurance. The assistance work can be kept in the 10-12 rep range but again, depending on the exercise and the goal five sets of 10-12 is a lot of anything. Why do five when three is enough? Put it this way, if you did 5x10's for a while and plateaued the correct advice would most likely be to do less, not more, to get back on track towards your goals.

[jdanger]

Honestly high sets/low reps never crossed my mind so I'm going to give it a shot... I'm so used to doing 3x10+ for everything for so long that I felt like I was wimping out somehow doing short sets. But I think high sets/low reps might give my disc and knee problems a break on the compound lifts. Thanks for the idea!

Note that doing lower reps generally implies using higher weight. If you're having disc and knee problems at weights you can handle for sets of 10, you absolutely will have larger problems with weights that are challenging for 3 or less. Further, doing more sets of less reps at an equal weight is not equivalent from an exercise stimulus perspective. Doing ten sets of five at whatever weight you do for five sets of ten is going to be much much easier, which might make sense in certain situations but it is important to be aware of this.

[mizvalentine]

More effective for who and for what? Who's doing the lifts and why? Considering your injury history I'd have a hard time justifying any high intensity compound lifts for quite a while. I like volume when beginning and coming back from and/or working around injuries. 5x10 will be excessive as the weight goes up but I wouldn't feel like you're missing out by not jumping into heavy triples or similar. Take it slow, keep the form perfect. Remain as pain free as possible.

Consider the traditional 5x5 for the compound lifts as it's a pretty happy mix between max strength work and hypertrophy/muscle endurance. The assistance work can be kept in the 10-12 rep range but again, depending on the exercise and the goal five sets of 10-12 is a lot of anything. Why do five when three is enough? Put it this way, if you did 5x10's for a while and plateaued the correct advice would most likely be to do less, not more, to get back on track towards your goals.

Thanks for this! I'm going to try 5x5s and see how it feels. I guess I need to rid myself of this thought that if I don't do 10 reps of something, I haven't really DONE it. I think this is something that was drilled into me long ago by 'fitness' instructors who don't think girls should lift heavy... I can see that since I've moved from pink weights to big girl barbells I need a mindset adjustment.

I do worship at the altar of the Goddess of Form. Mostly out of fear of hurting myself again... that particular fear is a great motivator!

[mizvalentine]

Ah... This is something I didn't realize: "Further, doing more sets of less reps at an equal weight is not equivalent from an exercise stimulus perspective." It makes sense of course.

I should be more specific too (hard because I'm such a bag of conflicting indications!). The weights I'm lifting at for 3x10 are very much helping my knees/back as my quads/core get stronger and I have less day-to-day pain and better stability overall. But in the immediate moment of lifting I have increased pain in my knees towards the end of my sets and I feel like my knee stability suffers as I tire. I'm pretty sure I could lift 25% heavier on deads at least, no problem (I'm being very careful adding weight, and doing it slow) but my knees would never hold up to 10 reps at that weight. 5 sure, definitely not 10.

[Brometheus]

Full hour of cleans and deadlifts--wow! That's something to aspire to in my book, 5-6 sets of deads and I'm *literally* dead haha!

Honestly high sets/low reps never crossed my mind so I'm going to give it a shot... I'm so used to doing 3x10+ for everything for so long that I felt like I was wimping out somehow doing short sets. But I think high sets/low reps might give my disc and knee problems a break on the compound lifts. Thanks for the idea!

Yeah, that seems like a lot of sets. I'd do either a starting strength 3x5 or stronglifts 5x5. I would also make sure you get 3-5 minutes between sets for the squats and deadlifts.

[Timmy M]

I would also make sure you get 3-5 minutes between sets for the squats and deadlifts.

yh i should of mentioned that lol, that's why it takes so long, i probably do about 6-8 sets not doing more than 3 reps, even if i can do more, when i do that it's to get as heavy as i can... maybe not the best thing to aspire to right now with your knee as it is

[anxiety]

You have some good exercises there, I see 2 things that I would change if I were you though. I would switch tricep with bicep because you activate your tricep/shoulders when you bench and you activate your biceps when you do most back exercises. By switching these it would just be for safety so you don't over work and injure them but they are fast healing muscles so you don't HAVE to do this.

Also, I would recommend doing your deadlifts on leg day because during squats you use your lower back more than when you do normal back exercises and your lower back is the slowest to heal so working that a lot might cause some issues later down the road.

This is just my opinion though, if this is a 3 day split where you only work out 3 times a week then it shouldn't be a big deal.

[mizvalentine]

yh i should of mentioned that lol, that's why it takes so long, i probably do about 6-8 sets not doing more than 3 reps, even if i can do more, when i do that it's to get as heavy as i can... maybe not the best thing to aspire to right now with your knee as it is

Ah interesting, thanks guys! I NEVER rest that long between sets...might try not max weight, but slightly more weight and shorter sets/longer rests and see where that gets me. I'm always interested in changing things up for the better.

You have some good exercises there, I see 2 things that I would change if I were you though. I would switch tricep with bicep because you activate your tricep/shoulders when you bench and you activate your biceps when you do most back exercises. By switching these it would just be for safety so you don't over work and injure them but they are fast healing muscles so you don't HAVE to do this.

Also, I would recommend doing your deadlifts on leg day because during squats you use your lower back more than when you do normal back exercises and your lower back is the slowest to heal so working that a lot might cause some issues later down the road.

This is just my opinion though, if this is a 3 day split where you only work out 3 times a week then it shouldn't be a big deal.

Interesting... I haven't felt any strain on the bi's and tri's yet, but I'll keep this in mind... I guess I was thinking that overall the back day is lighter than the others but my triceps are weak so I figured that'd give me the strength to do some extra tricep work. Would you swap the deads and squats or do both on leg day? I might not be in good enough shape to do that quite yet, but its something to think about...I'm all about being careful of my lower back while it gets strengthened. I am only lifting 3 days a week though so maybe its okay.

Can you all recommend a good weight training book (or three? ha) so I can educate myself? I like those that are heavy on the science and anatomy, I like to know the why behind what I'm doing in the gym...I have Strength Training Anatomy by Delavier, but I clearly need to do more reading on the subject.

[anxiety]

Ugh, for some reason it deleted my last response. Anyways, I suggest you stay away from deadlifts if you are worried about your back, or maybe just do really low weight. If you decide to do deadlifts I would do them the same day as squats/legs. You need your back for almost every exercise though so if you feel too much pain stop and either go to a machine or rest. Listen to your body!

About the book, "The Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding" is amazing and filled with tons and tons of different things, but it is completely for bodybuilding. It talks about exercises and different things but also posing, tanning, different things like that.

[jdanger]

While I agree with anxiety in principle I've worked with people with fusions before and I generally follow the idea that if you can perform the movement pain free with good form you aren't in any significant danger. Would I ever suggest you attempt to set powerlifting records with a fusion, no (though it's probably likely to have been done). But good movement is healthy for a lot of reasons beyond max strength and heavy weights.

Do you have back pain while deadlifting? While I can't comment on movement I haven't seen I would strike a balance between anxiety's correct though maybe conservative recommendation and suggest you seek the advice of a trainer with experience working with people with similar injury histories if at all possible. It doesn't even have to be a long term thing but I'd at least have them review how you move and make sure you're doing things as right as possible.

There are tons of books but it sounds like Starting Strength is exactly what you're looking for there. I've yet to see a better breakdown of the "why/how" of the main lifts.

[Guest Carjack]

http://articles.elitefts.com/tag/rehab/

[mizvalentine]

Thanks guys...I actually have been lucky enough to be in with a fantastic physical therapist the past 2-3 months who is also a trainer and uses weight training as therapy. So we've done a lot of work on good form etc. Since my fusion is solid and old, its mostly about good form above all, and not adding weight too fast (this kind of patience is hard for me, but I'm trying!!). In fact, I was under the impression that I should never do stiff leg deadlifts, for example, but my PT's opinion was that I could actually really benefit from the strengthening those would offer--with proper form and appropriate weight (this shocked the crap out of me to be honest!). My weak core is actually contributing to my lower back/disc problems (strong, long fusion at the top of the spine, putting significant weight and shear on the lumbar spine and nerves). I don't see any Good Mornings or 300lb deads in my future but I think the lightweight stuff is doing more good than harm.

I do need a more ongoing relationship with a trainer, though... just so hard to find one with the medical chops to understand my situation!

Most of my pain is knee related (my physiatrist and PT are actually suspicious that my back pain is referred from my knees, and less related to my fusion than originally though), and if anything its squats that give me trouble rather than deads. I've always been super strong at deads and they feel good...

Appreciate the book suggestions too!! I've got some reading to do.

[mizvalentine]

http://articles.elitefts.com/tag/rehab/

This is AWESOME. Thank you.

[jdanger]

In fact, I was under the impression that I should never do stiff leg deadlifts, for example, but my PT's opinion was that I could actually really benefit from the strengthening those would offer--with proper form and appropriate weight (this shocked the crap out of me to be honest!).

FWIW (not much), I agree with your PT here. Though I've never trained anyone with a fusion that severe and knee issues, I have people with fusions perform bent over rows and straight leg deadlifts with success. Note the distinction between straight and stiff leg DL. Normally stiff leg DLs are performed with the knees locked out which loads the lumbar spine a little more and is harder on the knees so I stick to straight leg variants where the knees are bent slightly. Since your fusion is higher up stiff legs can very well be totally fine and this is a semantics thing that people differ on so one trainer's stiff leg DL may be the same as another's straight etc..

As mentioned many times already, form and proper weight are the key things and it sounds like you've got a pretty good PT who understands resistance training so I like where you're at there. A lot aren't that savvy on the training side.

[mizvalentine]

Note the distinction between straight and stiff leg DL. Normally stiff leg DLs are performed with the knees locked out which loads the lumbar spine a little more and is harder on the knees so I stick to straight leg variants where the knees are bent slightly. Since your fusion is higher up stiff legs can very well be totally fine and this is a semantics thing that people differ on so one trainer's stiff leg DL may be the same as another's straight etc..

Ah OK, I didn't realize that anyone actually did SLDLs with legs locked out...the rule my PT gave me is to almost never lock out my knees because it instantly takes me out of neutral pelvis/spine position (this has been a huge contributing factor in my lower back pain from standing... I lived my whole life with my knees locked out up til now!). Thanks for the info!

I'm super lucky to have the PT I have, that's for sure. My previous experiences with PT had ranged from palliative to useless. Now I just want to keep it going, kill all the fat I put on being laid up, get stronger and be more stable.

Here's a question (that I'll also ask my PT when I can get in there, but I'd love you guys' thoughts)... I just can't seem to conquer single leg deadlifts. Its my lack of stability, definitely...I just feel like I fall all over the place, even without weight. Any supporting exercises that you guys could suggest that would help improve my balance/stability and help with those?

[jdanger]

Cool. Yeah it definitely isn't normal and I've never personally prescribed said exercises with locked out knees, but it is out there. Again the PT is on the money.

Single leg deads are definitely tricky. I consider them a skill movement that simply requires a lot of practice to master. Tons of coordination and balance going on. I'd start with dumbbells or kettlebells or similar to start. I'm a pretty athletic guy with a hockey background and historically did a lot of single leg squatting moves (pistols, loaded split squats, lunges etc) and the day I decided to try barbell single leg deadlifts I looked like I'd never been in the gym before, falling all over myself. Persistence, patience and practice.

Doing some sets "from the top" might also help. Basically you DL whatever you're using the traditional way then attempt to place it back on the ground (the eccentric) with only one leg. So you DL to the top, pickup a foot and then attempt the eccentric. Once that's pretty groovy on each leg start working the concentric.

[mizvalentine]

Doing some sets "from the top" might also help. Basically you DL whatever you're using the traditional way then attempt to place it back on the ground (the eccentric) with only one leg. So you DL to the top, pickup a foot and then attempt the eccentric. Once that's pretty groovy on each leg start working the concentric.

Cool! I'm totally going to try this. Might be a stupid question, but in the initial phase, would I put both hands on the dumbbell as I deadlift it, then switch to one hand for the eccentric phase, or just one hand for both phases?

And thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one with trouble on these... I've been super frustrated but I'm determined to get it right!

[jdanger]

No problem, good luck! Let us know how it goes. Actually you'd want a dumbbell in each hand. Holding one can be done but it would be more advanced and it's better to stick to equal loading to get the movement down. Removing yourself from the limitations of the barbell helps as dumbbells are easier to balance and you have a little wiggle room in the movement because your arms aren't fixed to a barbell.

[mizvalentine]

No problem, good luck! Let us know how it goes. Actually you'd want a dumbbell in each hand. Holding one can be done but it would be more advanced and it's better to stick to equal loading to get the movement down. Removing yourself from the limitations of the barbell helps as dumbbells are easier to balance and you have a little wiggle room in the movement because your arms aren't fixed to a barbell.

Awesome! I'll try this out this weekend and see how it goes. Thanks again.