[Sept.15 - Oct. 26] There is only war: A Warhammer Fantasy PvP experiment

[ShadowLion]

@ CommanderKidd - Forgive me for not knowing more about an ally's background. Do dwarfs call only a certain mountainous land home, or do they dwell in mountainous areas in general? It sounds as if many of your people have become wanderers.

@ DarK_Raider - Could you post a link to the old version of the map, please?The new one's resolution is reduced and it is hard to read the place names

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Khalith pulled the guanuaco skin tighter around her, as a strong wind swept in from the east. She coughed. Something about this wasteland strained her normally iron constitution. She would be glad to leave it behind, but she was under no illusions about the threat of Chaos being gone.

She watched the others go as she waited for the group of Albion soldiers to finish their preparations to accompany the Amazons back to the standing stones of Albion. She had already seen to the loading of the Amazon warriors and their dead.

Khalith walked a little ways away and looked eastward. She respected all of the allies who had fought together, but the elven general's arm clasp and words touched her more deeply and she felt warmer for that. There was one she would happily fight alongside again.

She squatted and let a handful of the blasted, gritty soil sift through her fingers. With her other hand, she reached into the pouch at her waist and pulled out a small, orange-red stone. Not much more than a pebble, she dropped it in a small depression and smoothed dirt over it before she rose and turned her face south and west. Already word had come of new threats to her homeland and she would be there to deal with them.

[ShadowLion]

What about character and race? It sounds like some people will be changing anyway, but can we keep our current one? Provided, of course, that we don't get killed between now and the reset...

[DarK_RaideR]

@ DarK_Raider - Could you post a link to the old version of the map, please?The new one's resolution is reduced and it is hard to read the place names

Unfortunately, the old version is no more. I'll try PMing you with a .jpeg copy of it, it's 3168*2534, you should be able to see the names

 

What about character and race? It sounds like some people will be changing anyway, but can we keep our current one? Provided, of course, that we don't get killed between now and the reset...

You can keep the name, concept and army alright. I just have to work out the levelling system, to make sure switching is not too punishing, otherwise veteran generals can get too precious to leave behind (or too powerful to face in combat).

[CommanderKidd]

Shadowlion, the Dwarfs in previous versions of Warhammer have been down on their luck and holding on to their ancestral homes by the skin of their teeth. The newest version of the army book has them finally coming out of their super fortified cities to kick some serious tail.

 

Basically if I start talking about the war of reclamation, that's Dwarfs coming out to kick the greenskins, skaven, and others out of their old mountain homes and taking them back.

 

Dwarfs as a race used to be rich and powerful but they were beaten on by natural disasters and hordes of enemies to the point where instead of living in places they can mine gold they decided to move to places they could mine copper and tin, very weak and cheap metals. Dwarfs currently live all over the Old World due to the disasters that befell them but they don't have cities anywhere else to my knowledge and these cities are more like towns than what they are used to.

 

There also has been tension between Elves and Dwarfs due to something called the war of the beard (or more properly to us Dwarfs the war of vengeance). This came about when Dark Elves masqueraded as high elves and slaughtered a bunch of Dwarf caravans. When the Dwarfs sent a messenger to the elves saying "wtf guys? better repay us for the damages" the high elves shaved off his beard and sent him back (hugest of huge insults). This version of the rule book for the first time I remember says the Dwarfs consider things even (after killing the High King of the elves) so whereas we don't trust Elves we don't have an issue working with them.

 

Thus ends my 5 minute history of the Dwarfs.

[ShadowLion]

Unfortunately, the old version is no more. I'll try PMing you with a .jpeg copy of it, it's 3168*2534, you should be able to see the names

You can keep the name, concept and army alright. I just have to work out the levelling system, to make sure switching is not too punishing, otherwise veteran generals can get too precious to leave behind (or too powerful to face in combat).

Thanks! Old eyeballs...

Makes sense on the generals and keeping it competitive. Thought that even those might get reset. Guess we'll see how it all works in version 2!

I was thinking about the ranged troops and possible rule changes. It looks to me like the creators of Warhammer pretty carefully balanced out a lot of that to make the strategy interesting and to give each race something different as a strength and something else as a weakness, consistent with their backstories. Eliminating/limiting the ranged capabilities after the second round could really tilt the board.

And not all ranged are shooters, such as the Marauder Horsemen and the Beast Masters. How would those fare in such a scenario? It seems like that would complicate the game play considerably to break those different classes out, and without them some races would be at a real disadvantage. Obviously, I'm biased on the Amazon side, but it affects not just me, but any current or future player of any race that has cavalry/skirmishers/scouts, as well as all the races that are strong archers, etc.

[ShadowLion]

Shadowlion, the Dwarfs in previous versions of Warhammer have been down on their luck and holding on to their ancestral homes by the skin of their teeth. The newest version of the army book has them finally coming out of their super fortified cities to kick some serious tail.

 

Basically if I start talking about the war of reclamation, that's Dwarfs coming out to kick the greenskins, skaven, and others out of their old mountain homes and taking them back.

 

Dwarfs as a race used to be rich and powerful but they were beaten on by natural disasters and hordes of enemies to the point where instead of living in places they can mine gold they decided to move to places they could mine copper and tin, very weak and cheap metals. Dwarfs currently live all over the Old World due to the disasters that befell them but they don't have cities anywhere else to my knowledge and these cities are more like towns than what they are used to.

 

There also has been tension between Elves and Dwarfs due to something called the war of the beard (or more properly to us Dwarfs the war of vengeance). This came about when Dark Elves masqueraded as high elves and slaughtered a bunch of Dwarf caravans. When the Dwarfs sent a messenger to the elves saying "wtf guys? better repay us for the damages" the high elves shaved off his beard and sent him back (hugest of huge insults). This version of the rule book for the first time I remember says the Dwarfs consider things even (after killing the High King of the elves) so whereas we don't trust Elves we don't have an issue working with them.

 

Thus ends my 5 minute history of the Dwarfs.

Thanks! That was a great history lesson! It gives me a much better picture of what you were talking about and a clearer understanding of some of the tensions between the elves and the dwarfs. I'm glad that some of the bitterness is easing after time and successful cooperation.

[DarK_RaideR]

There also has been tension between Elves and Dwarfs due to something called the war of the beard (or more properly to us Dwarfs the war of vengeance). This came about when Dark Elves masqueraded as high elves and slaughtered a bunch of Dwarf caravans. When the Dwarfs sent a messenger to the elves saying "wtf guys? better repay us for the damages" the high elves shaved off his beard and sent him back (hugest of huge insults). This version of the rule book for the first time I remember says the Dwarfs consider things even (after killing the High King of the elves) so whereas we don't trust Elves we don't have an issue working with them.

That would be so because in Warhammer, Dark Elves are not obsidian-skinned like their D&d cousins, but look every bit like normal Elves (once, all the Elves were one race, then split into three due to political and religious differences). It may be intentional or not, but I always view this story as a take on Nazi troops dressing as Polish soldiers and lifting the border bars as a provocation designed to provide an excuse for the invasion of Poland. But maybe it's just me.

 

Anyway, according to the Elves, the dwarf ambassador showed no respect and had a completely unfitting attitude, which of course we can all imagine from this grudge-loving race, so they wanted to give him a lesson in humility. According to the dwarfs, this was the highest of insults from a race that is anyway holier-than-thou.

[DarK_RaideR]

I was thinking about the ranged troops and possible rule changes. It looks to me like the creators of Warhammer pretty carefully balanced out a lot of that to make the strategy interesting and to give each race something different as a strength and something else as a weakness, consistent with their backstories. Eliminating/limiting the ranged capabilities after the second round could really tilt the board.

And not all ranged are shooters, such as the Marauder Horsemen and the Beast Masters. How would those fare in such a scenario? It seems like that would complicate the game play considerably to break those different classes out, and without them some races would be at a real disadvantage. Obviously, I'm biased on the Amazon side, but it affects not just me, but any current or future player of any race that has cavalry/skirmishers/scouts, as well as all the races that are strong archers, etc.

The creators of Warhammer have a multitude of rules for realism and balance. Shooting units have maximum range, can stand and shoot or suffer penalties for shooting on the move etc etc. For simplicity's sake, I've omitted most of them, which at times may seem unbalancing.

 

Also, since this whole train of thought began from the Grand Central Station of "Medusae turning Dragon Ogre Shaggoth into a pin cushion before it could even act" I've done a minor case study, which produced the following results:

1. Medusae were specifically ordered to shoot that unit without mercy, it was not just a random thing
2. Poison (a.k.a. ignoring defense on a roll of 6) applies only to their melee attacks. I've always played it this way, just mentioning because I think SL believes it also applies to their arrows
3. Three attacks with a bonus of +5 in each means a total potential roll of 6 to 11 on each.

• Against a single Rare unit (3 hp) with a high defense, they need a good roll to take it down, because if it deals less than its full hp in damage, I count it as a miss instead of writing down wounds, so they need to get its Defense+3 or nothing. Three rolls gives a decent chance and in the big fight, I actually rolled 6,5 and 6 so the D.O. Shaggoth didn't have a chance. The downside to this scenario is they are forced to waste all 3 attacks of that round on a single unit, even if they kill it with the first shot.
• Tried against large squads of armored warriors, like the Dwarfs, will probably not kill enough units to make a difference
• I'd say their optimal use is against Special units (2hp) that are usually 3-5 units strong.
• Against squads with low Defense, they can be devastating, but that can again be countered by sheer numbers. Shooting down 12-27 Goblins or Warhounds per round is impressive, but of little use if that squad is 100+ units strong

[Balthazar]

Short of converting the rules in to the pvp there will always be some tweaking to be done, and converting the rules into the pvp isn't practical because of the way the rules work.

The rules are designed to make how you move your army the most important way to win a battle,that can't be done in the pvp because players would physically have to play the game out which would literally take hours.

Ranged attack comes fourth in a list of five things to look at in order to win. It is trumped massively by deployment and movement, which we can't really do in a pvp and then by close combat, in the table top game ranged units do very little to alter the course of combat, especially when armies head over 3,000 points.

I think raider has done a grand job of trying to condense a few hundred pages of rules in to a quick and easy to understand pvp and in the grand scheme of things, like he said, the range units aren't too far away from where they need to be

[ShadowLion]

Wow. This PVP is the only time I've ever dealt with any of it. It's fascinating and a bit overwhelming. Every time I learn something new about it, I learn more about how much work and adaptation has gone in to create the PVP!

I still don't understand how the points all go. Been meaning to study it online some, but simply haven't had time. My strategy of throw the biggest thing(s) at the biggest thing the opponent has has been working, but not from knowledge as much as plain, dumb luck. Thought the poison was a separate ability, like a cobra spitting or something. No idea it was melee specific. Have also seen ranged as some sort of balancing factor against heavy hitting melee troops, which I guess it is (why I put Medusas where I did, as opposed to coatls), but maybe not as much as I thought? It seemed to make a big difference in the last battle but was that some sort of anomaly? The Medusas took out the Shaggoth, but I lost a 250 pt coatl to a 66 point dragon ogre, lol, so I know I'm not figuring out something on the points very well...math.

Have been keeping squads small for mobility, which evidently isn't much of a factor if one is not playing it out on a tabletop. That sounds like it would be quite fun to do because of the strategy involved. Complex, though, with all of the additional rules.

I think I just learned a lot of very useful stuff! Thanks, guys!

Have to keep working on my psychokinesis chops to get those high rolls - ha!

[Balthazar]

If you ever come over to the uk we will play the full game

I think your range did well because the strength of ranged units has generally been artificially inflated a little to make up for other things. Most notably the wood elf army normally relies on out manoeuvring an enemy to win, but in the pvp this isn't possible so their ranges strength has been increased to make up for it

[ShadowLion]

Ah. More of D-R's wizardry. I think it is super cool the way the exercises were matched to type of unit and the variety of things there are to do. It is making me work a lot of things I don't normally, or in different ways. Very beneficial. And the motivational factor is huge!

Sounds like a great vacation someday! I can see where it would be a blast to collect the units and actually lay out a battlefield and ranks and such. One of the things I was thinking about when I put in my rather ignorant two cents worth about ranged units was that I like that we can stage troops out between front and back, and have to plan that out. That kind of thing sounds like it is far more a part of the tabletop game.

Reminds me of the sand table exercises we would participate in for wildfire incident training. You form the "sandbox" into terrain, position houses, trucks, firefighters, aerial units, supplies, etc. and play out a whole scenario with changing weather conditions, and so on. Great fun and excellent training. Some of what we are building into the iOS game I'm working on currently. I can so see this PVP being turned into something similar.

[Balthazar]

True that

[DarK_RaideR]

Short of converting the rules in to the pvp there will always be some tweaking to be done, and converting the rules into the pvp isn't practical because of the way the rules work.

[...]

I think raider has done a grand job of trying to condense a few hundred pages of rules in to a quick and easy to understand pvp

Wow. This PVP is the only time I've ever dealt with any of it. It's fascinating and a bit overwhelming. Every time I learn something new about it, I learn more about how much work and adaptation has gone in to create the PVP!

You don't need to be familiar with the tabletop game to understand the PvP, but it certainly helps in understanding how much work has been put into the conversion Dan gives you the main idea in his post: my main dilemma is to either include rules and make things more complicated or cast them aside with the risk of unbalancing the game. It's a thin line but I'm managing.

 

I think it is super cool the way the exercises were matched to type of unit and the variety of things there are to do. It is making me work a lot of things I don't normally, or in different ways. Very beneficial

I blame CrossFit for making me think like that But yeah, I thought it would be extremely boring to have an army that is based completely on one kind of exercise, unless their racial theme is geared specifically towards it. Sometimes I use different exercises to differentiate units that are close in stats and rep/apv cost. Other times, especially when I have a powerful/rare unit, I try to assign a harder exercise to it, instead of something like 200+ reps which might be easier, especially if spread out over time.

[mitch_dee]

You don't need to be familiar with the tabletop game to understand the PvP, but it certainly helps in understanding how much work has been put into the conversion Dan gives you the main idea in his post: my main dilemma is to either include rules and make things more complicated or cast them aside with the risk of unbalancing the game. It's a thin line but I'm managing.

And I (and pretty sure I speck for everyone) believe you are doing an outstanding job!

[ShadowLion]

I agree! Lots and lots of work put in and an excellent product.

 

And it works as intended - we're doing more workouts, better workouts and having a load of fun. And, it works our brains and social skills, too!

A very strong argument for gamification of everyday life.

 

[ShadowLion]

The celebration in Genaina was uproarious. As much as Amazons loved making war, partying was a close second, and Queen Thalestris made sure that her appreciation of her warriors' efforts was known. The strong, herbed beverages made from jungle tubers and the fermented juice of cactus fruit from the western coast flowed freely and the accompanying dancing, singing and storytelling went far into the night.

Khalith retreated to the Sisterhood as soon as it was seemly. At an earlier meeting, she had told Thalestris and the Jaguar Mother of what they had seen and experienced in the Chaos Wastes, and how much of their success had been due to pure, dumb luck. The stories told for general consumption she now knew would be embroidered and dramatized. She would do nothing to contradict her commanders' lead, yet she would not soon forget the shadows behind her warriors' eyes or the creatures they had all seen coming at them across the blasted earth of the wastes.

The next day, she set off north, carrying the ashes of the great red coatl in the earthen pot. The blue coatl accompanied her, though this time the flying serpent was uncharacteristically quiet. They journeyed back to the Green River and with solemn prayers and ceremony gave the red coatl's spirit back to its home.

Her promise kept, Khalith and the blue coatl continued on to an Amazon encampment further north and east. Word had come of a buildup of Lizardmen in territory adjacent to Amazon lands and Khalith was determined to assess the risk for herself.

[DarK_RaideR]

Tilea has been added to the spreadsheet. No mini challenge this week, been extra busy. In other news, the deadline is tonight so please start messaging me so I can spend my weekend processing battles. Friendly reminder, we only have this and next week's battles before troops/lands reset to zero, so don't hold too many for reserves or they'll be wasted

[Balthazar]

holy moly, tilea, tilea, tilea, tilea

 

SO EXICTED

[DarK_RaideR]

Also, I may or may not have just finalized the rules for the next version of this PvP in a 5 page document. Including simplified combat rules, level-ups for generals and territory control as a means to designate a winner at the end. Next big step is a minor (lol) revamp of the spreadsheet

 

Edit: Albion, Amazon and Chaos pages have been tweaked, in case you wanted a sneek preview of the abilities that will be available to higher level generals in the future

[Chris-Tien Jinn]

I agree! Lots and lots of work put in and an excellent product.

 

And it works as intended - we're doing more workouts, better workouts and having a load of fun. And, it works our brains and social skills, too!

A very strong argument for gamification of everyday life.

 

 

I agree.  I could see some afterschool clubs using something like this. 

[erwohs]

Tonight the lizardmen will rightfully claim there space on the map and take sometime to determine friend from foe and then unleash the power of the Slann upon there enemies!!

[mitch_dee]

I will get my stuff to ypu later tonight. ...sorry for being a lil behind....crazy busy and a handful of a 2 year old on top of it all

[ShadowLion]

Satisfied that the Amazon borders were secure from any incursions by the Lizard men, Khalith and the coatl returned south towards the capitol.

A cloud of dust in the distance signaled a rider coming their way. Soon a Totem Guardian, one of Queen Thalestris's personal guards, appeared astride a Culchan, a large, fleet, and flightless bird.

"Urgent news from the Queen," the woman said.

Khalith took the message and read.

"Urgent, indeed." She nudged her jaguar and then she, the blue coatl, and the Totem Guardian and their mounts took off towards the capitol at a fast trot. They needed to get to the standing stones quickly.

[Red1263]

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