Disturbing trend in the nf forums?

[weirdquark]

I've set a BF% as a goal, but my main goals are strength related -- I have no idea what my current goal BF% would actually look like on me, and I sort of pulled the number out of the air. Not entirely; it's the top of the range of BF% for 'athletic' women, and that sounded like a good place to start.

A benefit of measuring my body fat is that if I know how much of my weight is fat, I know how much of my weight is not. So if I'm tracking these numbers, I can see if my LBM is going up which means that in addition to tracking how much fat I have, I can track whether I'm gaining, maintaining, or losing muscle mass. And since my goals are strength related, I want to have a way to be sure I'm eating enough to at the least maintain my LBM, and preferably increase the amount of muscle that I have. (I have not figured out a way to distinguish between water-weight gain and muscle-weight gain, except that if I can gain three pounds over the course of a few days and then lose them after fasting for 24 hours, those were probably water-weight pounds and not muscle or fat.)

So I see BF% more as a tool than a goal.

[gugi9000]

Note* MMA fighters need not apply. You guys are unique little snowflakes.

ROFL.

I changed my diet to loo better. I train to get stronger - actually to perform better in Parkour, MTB and bouldering, but you need strength for that :-)

- Gugi9000 (almost everywhere)

Convict Conditioning: pushups: step 3, leg raises: step 1, pull ups: step 2, squats: step 3, rest is pending.

[spezzy]

A lot of people's motivation is physical appearance. And if that's their motivation - great. Not everyone is interested in lifting more or running faster.

As for certain body fat percents, we're nerds, we tend to like numbers and to analyze things, and since we're typically against actual scale numbers bodyfat percent is a good number.

[Guest Snake McClain]

Do I think there is an acceptable beach body? no, I don't - BUT I do think there is acceptable beach attire. Do I want to see someones thong disappear into their ass crack? nope, i do not. We all have our reasons for doing what we do, and I don't think anyone should feel guilty about it.

I find everyone on these boards to be very accepting of others viewpoints, and I find that advice is offered freely, and without judgement.

I was literally about to say this immediately after readign the OP. It is about attire. I don't want to see certain parts of a person. how they look is their business. However I do agree to a point that people seem at times to be too focused on "i want to look like this and that" but I can only speak for myself. i want to look a certain way because of the REASON i have been training so hard. I want to look a certain way because I am going to be in nothing but tights in a wrestling ring. I want to look impressive. Again I can't speak for anyone else.

[ETFnerd]

Well, I'm glad I live in America (the US part of it), where I can rock a thong at the beach any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I wish I had had the courage to do it when I was extremely overweight, because I think that that's the time when the visual impact is greatest. It ain't no thing to do it in South Beach, but much more satisfying to do it where the people who want to tell me what to do are concentrated. It's just a freedom of speech issue with me...

Thongs don't kill people... people kill people...

[Loren Wade]

A lot of my fitness has something to do with the way I look. I don't know why this is a "disturbing" trend. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look good naked! It boosts confidence, that's for sure. It combats the overweight epidemic. AND it gets us fit. As long as one does so in a healthy manner, I have no problem with goals consisting of physical looks.

[andygates]

Also; might I say it could be worse? At least people are focusing on BF% and not something stupid like total body weight. ZOMG NEED TO BE UNDER 100 POUNDS !!!!1!11!!!.

I've dealt a lot with the pro-ana community, and they're not stupid, they're... mostly just broken.

But yeah, the goal is daft. Mass is not a meaningful indicator.

(if there's a beach challenge, I get to be the exploding whale!)

[scotticus]

Interesting feedback from everyone! To extend the question, when is enough enough? Where does the line get drawn?

[cacodaemonia]

Good point - there is the whole fitness = appearance aspect of things that I completely failed to consider. I think I might just be paranoid about the nf forums going the same way as so many other fitness forums. That would suck, bro

FWIW, I stopped reading Seventeen YEARS ago...

Suuuure you did. I only fell into the trap of reading girly magazines between the ages of maybe 11 and 16, but they did plenty of damage in that time!

I've dealt a lot with the pro-ana community, and they're not stupid, they're... mostly just broken.

But yeah, the goal is daft. Mass is not a meaningful indicator.

(if there's a beach challenge, I get to be the exploding whale!)

Agreed. Disorders like anorexia are very weird in that they completely alter one's image of a desirable body type, and no amount of facts or consequences can change that. I was anorexic for a couple years in high school, and had majorly disordered eating for years afterwards. Of course, I still have some problems with food and body image, but I've transitioned to mostly healthy ways of thinking about and dealing with food/weight/general fitness.

(Exploding Whale would be a good band name)

Interesting feedback from everyone! To extend the question, when is enough enough? Where does the line get drawn?

That's a tough one, and something I've been struggling with. Like many people, I get stuck in the "I have to be constantly losing weight/fat or it means all is lost and I'm a fat, horrible cow!!" mindset....Or maybe that's just me. I really don't have an answer for this, but I'm very curious to see what others have to say!

[Loren Wade]

Interesting feedback from everyone! To extend the question, when is enough enough? Where does the line get drawn?

That's personal discretion.

[scotticus]

That's personal discretion.

There must be some kind of objective limit though - eating disorders, steroids, living in a van (down by the river) so you can buy supplements?!?

[scotticus]

Suuuure you did. I only fell into the trap of reading girly magazines between the ages of maybe 11 and 16, but they did plenty of damage in that time!

Agreed. Disorders like anorexia are very weird in that they completely alter one's image of a desirable body type, and no amount of facts or consequences can change that. I was anorexic for a couple years in high school, and had majorly disordered eating for years afterwards. Of course, I still have some problems with food and body image, but I've transitioned to mostly healthy ways of thinking about and dealing with food/weight/general fitness.

(Exploding Whale would be a good band name)

That's a tough one, and something I've been struggling with. Like many people, I get stuck in the "I have to be constantly losing weight/fat or it means all is lost and I'm a fat, horrible cow!!" mindset....Or maybe that's just me. I really don't have an answer for this, but I'm very curious to see what others have to say!

It's really good to know that you were able to turn that around into something positive

[Loren Wade]

There must be some kind of objective limit though - eating disorders, steroids, living in a van (down by the river) so you can buy supplements?!?

Of course there's unhealthy limits, but that makes eating disorders and steroids the enemy, not wanting abs. And if anyone on the forums comes here for help with those things, I guarantee you they'll receive comfort, support, and help from the community. That's why we're awesome.

A lot of people's motivation is physical appearance. And if that's their motivation - great. Not everyone is interested in lifting more or running faster.

As for certain body fat percents, we're nerds, we tend to like numbers and to analyze things, and since we're typically against actual scale numbers bodyfat percent is a good number.

Also, this. Don't know how I missed this.

['Roos]

As far as 'enough' - I think the real question is, is there ever a time when your personal desires don't change? I mean, so I complete all my goals, the reason I will have new ones is because I will want to do NEW THINGS. So I make my goals currently - maybe I'll decide I want to do parkour - very different physical demands than horse riding. so I'll train in new and different ways. No big deal. No concern about eating disorders, etc. What we want is dynamic, and so I think the question of 'enough' is really kind of moot. Barring compulsive/unhealthy behavior, we will never get 'enough', because fitness isn't a quantity - it's a state.

[ETFnerd]

I've written that I tend to exhibit compulsive behaviors, especially around not being able to pull back on workouts. This probably stems from a fear of regression to my old self. Things like this are a concern, especially if I am spreading it to others with a rah, rah attitude all the time, making people depressed about small, recoverable failures, sinking self-esteem, when a balanced, resilient approach is probably the better course.

run-on sentence much?

[aj_rock]

I've dealt a lot with the pro-ana community, and they're not stupid, they're... mostly just broken.

But yeah, the goal is daft. Mass is not a meaningful indicator.

(if there's a beach challenge, I get to be the exploding whale!)

Ahh yes sorry if that wasn't clear! 100% I meant the goal was stupid/daft (I like the word daft better actually), not the misguided people seeking it.

[chammy]

Interesting feedback from everyone! To extend the question, when is enough enough? Where does the line get drawn?

For me (I'm one of those lose weight/appearance/bf% goal people), I want to get to that goal, or close to it, in order to achieve other things in life. I want to be able to hike and walk long distances on vacations with little to no issue; run a half marathon; not have to wear extra support garments under clothes (spanx/corsets to hide tummy flub); get a breast reduction; etc etc etc.

I can list so many things that I would be MORE COMFORTABLE DOING closer to my goal BF%. I don't want to focus on "weight" because it's too easy to get distracted on. I'd rather be 150lbs and 20%bf/size 6-8 pants than 120lbs and 30%bf, or the 170ish I am now with 34%bf (size 12).

[scarletleavy]

To extend the question, when is enough enough? Where does the line get drawn?

My personal rule is when your goals begin to interfere with your life, relationships, work, etc. When goals turn into an obsession or a compulsion. When your goals become actively secretive. These are the big ones for me as they indicate some sort of disordered thinking.

On a side note, this is just anecdotal, so obviously I can't prove it or anything, but I really believe that relapses or instances of anorexia are much smaller in women who actually lift weights (I don't mean 2 pound pink dumbbells, but heavier stuff). So in that sense I'm a little less worried about women's goals so long as they include an emphasis on strength training. There's something about the disordered thinking of anorexia that seems mostly incompatible with weight lifting, the mental aspects of it at least. I get far more worried on other fitness sites with women who eat like 800 calories a day and run for hours on an elliptical/treadmill, with the goal of looking like a Victoria's secret or runway model. Anyway, just some rambling.

[scarletleavy]

I can list so many things that I would be MORE COMFORTABLE DOING closer to my goal BF%. I don't want to focus on "weight" because it's too easy to get distracted on. I'd rather be 150lbs and 20%bf/size 6-8 pants than 120lbs and 30%bf, or the 170ish I am now with 34%bf (size 12).

Also, I think this is an important point about goals. So many people just have a number or clothing size in their head that they want to reach and I think in general that's a pretty bad way of setting goals. I weigh 135 pounds with about 20% or so body fat, but I've also weighed 135 pounds with a much higher body fat and looked totally and completely different, not to mention wore 2 sizes larger. It's a a crazy thing to wrap your mind around at the beginning, that you can weigh more and wear smaller clothes/look better, etc.

[chammy]

Also, I think this is an important point about goals. So many people just have a number or clothing size in their head that they want to reach and I think in general that's a pretty bad way of setting goals. I weigh 135 pounds with about 20% or so body fat, but I've also weighed 135 pounds with a much higher body fat and looked totally and completely different, not to mention wore 2 sizes larger. It's a a crazy thing to wrap your mind around at the beginning, that you can weigh more and wear smaller clothes/look better, etc.

Absolutely. Reading spezzy's story taught me that.

Also, I may have reached a size 10 again? maybe? I was ~150 last time I wore it. <.<

[Oogiem]

there is the whole fitness = appearance aspect of things that I completely failed to consider.

For some of us appearance is the only way I can manage it now. I'm just trying to figure out good goals, as in significant, measurable, attainable, relevant and time bound. For me that's going to necessarily mean measurements and looking good as defined by what size clothing I am wearing and how many pounds I can lift or how many pushups I can do.

I've never stuck with any exercise plan ever before in my life. I'm slowly working into it here with support. I'm one of those who is doing things slowly, so I'm working first on diet and some fitness. Still trying to find a coach to help me make sure I have proper form for weight lifting before I go much further. I know from experience in other things that it's better to go slow now and wait till I can do the thing properly than try to rush ahead and learn bad habits/form that will be much harder to change later. Plus I am probably double the age of the average person here and have age related health issues that dictate I must take it easy and build up slowly.

If I knew more about other ways to set measurements I would but for now the focus on looking good is one of the best ways for me to accomplish my goal of getting fitter and stronger.

[ETFnerd]

Sorry to take this a little off topic, but I see another trend that is a little disturbing. I've not been here very long, maybe a couple of months, but I've really enjoyed the sense of community here. The board is growing and new people join every day. This is a special place because it is the intersection or crossroad of so many lives. So many here are generous with their time, experience and advice. It is inevitable that this place will grow to a proportion where it will be difficult to keep track of things, and folks just interact with a smaller group because time doesn't allow keeping up with what everyone else is doing. I think it becomes impersonal at that point. I am in no sort of way advocating a cull or restrictions on growth. This place is special because of openness and inclusiveness, but I wonder if after a certain point the village will lose its small town charm.

[HenryFnord]

I find it a bit depressing, as it seems to suggest that the societal impetus to "look a certain way" might be seeping in around here.

Basic psychology man. People tend to be attracted, trust and want to be around people are are fairly fit and body fat is a pretty reasonable metric for fitness/attractiveness. You can find countless examples in dating, interviews, sales, etc.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[andygates]

One of the great things about turning forty is that I can offically retire from that game. That was my "light-bulb!" riding LEJOG: what I was doing was awesome and had nothing to do with how I looked, any stat or metric, or what anyone thought of me.

I know there's plenty of people who'd think that, eg, Crossfit is going too far into weird bodycult territory and see little difference -- though they're mostly couch potato types. The terrain looks different from different places, and that's part of the insidious creeping nature of it. 4 days a week? Fine or obsessive or dedicated? Five? Every day? Is "obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated" true, false, or something to hide behind?

There's something about the disordered thinking of anorexia that seems mostly incompatible with weight lifting

True, but there's also all that delicious control. Weights as a way out of anorexia seems to come via that route quite often.

[JRH46]

I like what I now see in the mirror now as opposed to when I hit rock bottom & started again. But at 65 the focus is Health & functional strength. I am the oldest person in the shop where I work & it is important to me that I am just as or more productive than those half my age. The thing is a 6-pack is 99.9% diet so if you got one your BF% is probably sub 10%. Genetics & Gender are also factors. I think a simple approach would be to focus on getting as fit as you possibly can & then all the statics will fall inline with less stress. Just my 2 cents.