Men ONLY please...

[Maleficarum]

Ive been watching this thread for a while... just thought i would chime in. Due to my current "life issues," Ive been doing a lot of research into Myers-Briggs and Enneagram personality types. Some of it sounds like voodoo-hokum, but some of it has some very valid, soul-searching type information that has helped me come to terms with certain aspects of my personality.

I am an INTP [the architect] (Myers-Briggs) and a 4w5 [the bohemian] (Enneagram). I am basically a big ball of emo-introverted-stagnation, UNLESS i keep moving. I basically will plan, and plan, and think, and plan, and think some more until whatever it was I needed to do in life has already passed me by. Any criticism or disapproval is immediately met with a big ball of self-deprecating loathing. Amazingly, actually having read that other people are just as locked into this type of thinking as I am, and that it is possible to actually turn this type of thinking into real, artistic productivity has helped me out of the downward spiral.

Dating sites suck. How do you adequately describe yourself into a little box of internet crap? Seriously. Some of the best profiles i have seen read more like a resume than a personality. At least the single-hook-up sites are a bit more honest about their intent. You post a pic, or respond to a pic, and hope for the best. No one expects more than they get from those sites and there is significantly less drama... from what i have seen anyway. Personally, ive never been able to have a one night stand, or even consider one. The closest I ever came to that was with a girl I had known for 3 months. I guess I have more trust and personality requirements than most guys.

[Church]

Not necessarily. I don't like one night stands. I'm exclusively a 'relationship' guy.

And yeah, it's not going well. The delay in communication is fucking with me pretty badly. It's depressing as all hell to have sent out 14 emails and (at this point) only 2 have been read and one has been replied to. And I feel like it would be really disingenuous to just send an email to every girl on the site and hope SOMEONE replies in a positive manner.

And yes, it is INCREDIBLY hard to write a good profile. Mine looks about on par with most of the others I've seen but results have been lackluster at best.

It's incredibly demoralizing

/rant

[chasely]

One night stands suck. If they didn't suck, they would turn into more than one-night stands. I've had a few, none were satisfying beyond about five minutes after the fact....

As far as dating sites go. Remember that women get a lot more contacts than men do. Check out the link for an idea. The same dating rules still apply on the internet. Most women will wait to be contacted by a man, they want him to take charge, but there is a lot more competition, oddly enough.

Obviously the number one rule for sending messages is NEVER use a template. You need to relate to the women's profile. She'll likely only look at your profile after you e-mail her. Even if you do this I think your "reply" rate is probably about average. I don't know what site you're using but in general pay sites are going to be better than the free sites.

It's "funny" that a lot of people do online dating because they don't want have to worry about the annoying parts of traditional dating, but the same rules apply to the online scene.

Keep your head up and good luck.

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts15031516.aspx

[Razor]

Haven't used a dating site yet, so I can't give advice.

What I can say is that you need to shrug it off. If you went to a carnival and there were a hundred women, and you only went up to the 14 prettiest/most interesting and they all rejected you, guess what son. There's STILL A TON OF GIRLS STANDING AROUND.

Self-esteem comes from the self. External factors should not change your esteem unless a multitude of factors have shaken the self loose from its position. This is called a mid-life crisis. Unless you're having one, don't let boneheaded bitches bother you, bro (I love alliteration).

[Church]

I get that. And, while I'm basing it somewhat off of looks (I'm a sucker for pretty eyes and a nice smile) its more about the profile content and how it is stated.

I'm looking for quality, not a quick lay. The issue I'm having though is more etiquette or whatever. I mean, should I wait another day or so before trying to contact more girls, or should I just go nuts and send messages to every girl I see and hope for the best, basically run a numbers game. Or should I send another message to the ones that REALLY interest me? What is the protocol in his situation!?!?!?!?!? >

[Atalan]

The good Doctor Nerdlove has some helpful tips for online dating profiles:

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/07/online-dating-101/

[chasely]

I mean, should I wait another day or so before trying to contact more girls, or should I just go nuts and send messages to every girl I see and hope for the best, basically run a numbers game. Or should I send another message to the ones that REALLY interest me? What is the protocol in his situation!?!?!?!?!? >

No, you should not send a message to every woman on the site . You should only send messages to those that you're interested in (not REALLY interested, but would actually like to see). It will probably take you at least a half hour to construct a "good" message to someone you're interested in (from looking at their profile, seeing where interests overlap, ideas for a date, etc), so that limits the number of messages you can send.

[CyningaDena]

Jeez, I take a weekend off and you guys start all sorts of great discussions!

I want to know, how do I conquer my need for recognition? It can be said that all the things I do is partly in my quest for others to recognise me as a talented, intelligent, kind and strong person.

First off, Bean, the impression I've garnered from reading your posts in various threads is that you are boss. I know there's a huge difference between having someone say that and believing it yourself, but from just the small part of you that we see here in the NF forums, you seem very thoughtful, articulate, and in possession of both a powerful desire to make yourself a better man and a strong follow-through. I hope you're giving yourself props for that.

There came a point in my life where I ruthlessly cut out every single relationship that wasn't helping me become better than I was. I spent a good deal of my life up through college feeling like I was useless and surrounding myself with people who treated me like trash, just because I thought I was lucky to have people who would accept my presence. That was bullshit. There is nothing wrong with needing to receive recognition and validation for your full awesomeness. There is something wrong with friendships that don't provide that. I stopped hanging with my old crew, and when anyone pushed I said, "I don't like the way you guys make me feel about myself as a human being, and so I'm just not going out with you any more." I had to tell my own father, "You don't get to talk to me like that, and if you do then we just won't talk any more." And I actively sought out friendships with other people. Not gonna lie -- it was a really rough transition. But the upshot is that I have a circle of friends now who excel in things I could never even begin to touch, who inspire me with their excellence and vice versa. If you feel a deep need to be recognized still, the problem isn't with you. It's that your circle is too bent on staring at their own belly-buttons to give you a legitimate human need.

The only other thing I might add is to suggest that you evaluate whether you would continue improving certain areas of your life if you were a hermit living in the mountains. Are you doing X because you're hoping someone else will notice it and give you props? Or are you doing it because it makes you a better you, which has value in its own right? If it's the first, then fuck it. Be ruthless and cut it out of your life. It's a waste of your energy, and if you're battling with depression, then energy is a precious commodity to be spent like a miser. I cannot stress that enough. Invest your energy in places that will give you a return. Everything else can go fuck itself. If it's the second, then tell yourself that you're worth the energy -- that being talented, intelligent, kind, and strong has intrinstic value because it makes your life into a work of art. If no one ever saw the peaks of Kilimanjaro, they would not cease to be beautiful and majestic.

The delay in communication is fucking with me pretty badly. It's depressing as all hell to have sent out 14 emails and (at this point) only 2 have been read and one has been replied to. And I feel like it would be really disingenuous to just send an email to every girl on the site and hope SOMEONE replies in a positive manner [...] It's incredibly demoralizing /rant

As a queer man in rural Montana (where there is one gay bar for the 4th largest state in the Union), online dating was pretty much my only way to meet potential dates. I generally had to say to myself that non-responders were doing us both a favor: they were reading my profile, assessing it like an intelligent human being (pretend with me there), and reaching the reasoned conclusion that we would not be a great match beyond the third date. They were saving us both the time and energy of plowing through a couple awkward dates and the painful "let's just be friends" conversation at the end. If they don't respond, it's not because you aren't fucking awesome. It's not because you aren't incredibly sexy. It's not because you aren't hot shit that women would clothesline each other for a shot at. It's because she's totally into Beanie Babies and reruns of Charles in Charge, and she's noticed that you aren't. And thank god she's wise enough to recognize you wouldn't be a good match. Somewhere out there, there's a woman who will feel like she's won the lottery when she sees your profile. You've just got to send a lot of emails to Beanie Baby chicks to find her.

[Razor]

Somewhere out there, there's a woman who will feel like she's won the lottery when she sees your profile. You've just got to send a lot of emails to Beanie Baby chicks to find her.

Someone give this man a MOTHER FUCKING MEDAL.

Could never have put that mentality into words myself. Kudos.

[Maleficarum]

No doubt. Excellent response Cyninga.

[Church]

..... I love you guys..... lol.

Cy that was an incredibly motivating-pick-me-up kind of rant/morale boost. And amazingly well written too. I'm actually kind of jealous... lol.

Atalan, thanks so much for the link Even if I AM going to have to rewrite my profile AGAIN. lol.

And Razor, I totally agree. Cy needs a big 'ole badass medal of badass-awesomness

[TheSavageBean]

Okay big post inc...

The best way for me to stop worrying about recognition and whatnot is to worry about others ... So, when I start getting depressed, the best way for me to work it out is to help others or at the very least to be kind to others

Quoting this for truth. There's a lot of power in being positive and helping others. I've had personal experience with this kind of depression tactic, you talk about happy things or to happy people to remind yourself that your problems aren't as bad as they seem. Alternatively you try to help people out of the holes they dig for themselves to demonstrate that no problem is insurmountable. You can't do it superficially though, you have to follow through and help, not just care because you're depressed and you want to feel better.

I used to care a lot about getting recognized as well. After joining the Masons I started doing a lot of anonymous donations and charity work it really has helped me get over the "Look what I did! You should give me a cookie!" mentality.

Charity work is an interesting idea, I've been thinking of joining Rovers and among the many things they do they help out at homeless shelters. Thanks for the advice!

In terms of actual validation, you need to love yourself. Not like yourself, or be okay with yourself, LOVE yourself. If you get injured tomorrow and can't work out for the rest of your life, will you be okay with how you look? Can you think of yourself as an adequate human being, lover, friend, and employee if that happens?

This might actually be the key element I've been missing. I've always been okay with myself, and accepting of where I am rather than really loving my body/life/personality and everything it can do. Importantly, this is a point I can work on in my mentality.

There's nothing wrong with improving yourself. One of my reasons is to look better to. But you have to ask yourself, and be SURE of your answer, when you ask "Down the road, when all is said and done and my goals are reached, will I actually be satisfied?". A lot of philosophers and psychologists will tell you ambition and expectations are the keys to disappointment and sadness. At the same time, what corrupts and damages the mind and soul builds and improves societies. Where would we be as a collective without those things?

You'll know you no longer seek validation from anyone but yourself when you no longer seek friends. In economic terms, there will be a low demand for friendship. Because you realize either A) There are no human beings who can meet and maintain the fictional standards we have of what friends and people should be, and/or You really don't need anybody else to spend time with/talk to.

That's an interesting litmus test actually. I've always felt I needed more friends and people look at my like I'm bizarre. It doesn't matter whether the amount of people I talk to is 5 or 20 I want to meet and talk to more. More importantly, I think the most peaceful time in my life was before my epic quest began, when I only had 4 true friends and spent all of my time with them.

Don't confuse friends with acquaintances. In this age with facebook, the internet, etc. everybody thinks they have lots of friends. I call those people acquaintances. I know them, I am cool with them, I occasionally talk to them, and we've had good times. But they aren't friends. I think the less you seek validation, the less willing you are to call random people you've met friends.

I actually did a facebook purge a while back, cut my "friends" from 200 down to 50. It was amazing how many people that not only weren't friends, but I didn't LIKE them. Why should they be in my life at all if I don't like them (except out of "politeness")!?

P.S. There will always be a desire for social interaction and structure, along with sexual mates due to biological imperative. Community is how a species survives the world, and mates are what keeps the community populated. However, there is a difference between actively seeking validation (young people do this through peers especially, or the older example would be the Curl-bro), and desiring validation (It's nice to have, but you can continue without giving a rat's arse).

Yeah, part of what I want to do is separate the biological imperative for community and a partner from living my own life and doing things because I want to. Thanks a heap for your post Razor, it sets a lot of stuff out clearly.

This is a funny subject to me. I have spent my whole life willing to make sacrifices and doing what is best for everyone else. Lately this has bitten me in the butt. I made the suggestion to hire someone at work. I knew it would be easier to find someone to do a user interface rather than the backend stuff. I suggested we get a PHP developer and obviously he became the go to person on design changes. Long story short he is going to be my new boss in a few weeks. Getting notoriety is not bad especially if you want to move up the corporate ladder. Life lessons suck and so does looking for a new job. It is a dead end job now and I don't see the reason for me to stay.

That really sucks man. Sometimes life just doesn't pull its punches. I really hope things get better for you, are there many opportunities for IT? A friend of mine programs in Ruby on Rails and he seems to be of the impression that the job market is pretty good in San Francisco.

First off, Bean, the impression I've garnered from reading your posts in various threads is that you are boss. I know there's a huge difference between having someone say that and believing it yourself, but from just the small part of you that we see here in the NF forums, you seem very thoughtful, articulate, and in possession of both a powerful desire to make yourself a better man and a strong follow-through. I hope you're giving yourself props for that.

Haha, it made me blush. Often I don't. I've also realised that I tend to brush off compliments. "He's a big guy" "You're so strong" "How is your hair always perfect". I think a lot of what I've been experiencing with my negative attitude comes from being unable to take compliments with due gratitude. I tend to not believe it or think that the person has a motive in telling me this. It's something I can work on, instead of saying "It's no big deal" I say "Hey thanks a lot!" instead.

The dual side of the coin is needing to pay compliments more. There's an anecdote from yesterday that's relevant here. I was walking along on Sunday and decided to get a sandwich. The girl who served me seemed like she was having a good day and I heard myself think, "Man, she has such a big smile." Walking away I realised I should have articulated what I thought but it was too late. As long as I know the problem I can work on it, so I'm happy to identify more things I can think about in my down time.

There came a point in my life where I ruthlessly cut out every single relationship that wasn't helping me become better than I was. I spent a good deal of my life up through college feeling like I was useless and surrounding myself with people who treated me like trash, just because I thought I was lucky to have people who would accept my presence. That was bullshit. There is nothing wrong with needing to receive recognition and validation for your full awesomeness. There is something wrong with friendships that don't provide that. I stopped hanging with my old crew, and when anyone pushed I said, "I don't like the way you guys make me feel about myself as a human being, and so I'm just not going out with you any more." I had to tell my own father, "You don't get to talk to me like that, and if you do then we just won't talk any more." And I actively sought out friendships with other people. Not gonna lie -- it was a really rough transition. But the upshot is that I have a circle of friends now who excel in things I could never even begin to touch, who inspire me with their excellence and vice versa. If you feel a deep need to be recognized still, the problem isn't with you. It's that your circle is too bent on staring at their own belly-buttons to give you a legitimate human need.

I can see what you mean, and I've had a similar experience. There have been a lot of friends I lost contact with on purpose. I think I'm actually still going through it, because I haven't yet found the friends who really inspire me to be better.

The only other thing I might add is to suggest that you evaluate whether you would continue improving certain areas of your life if you were a hermit living in the mountains. Are you doing X because you're hoping someone else will notice it and give you props? Or are you doing it because it makes you a better you, which has value in its own right?

You know the times when you read an innocuous quote and it strikes you as profound? It happened here. I totally would still do this as a hermit. I would still be strong and I would still be kind and healthy. I DO do this for me. If I had my legs cut off then I'd still do whatever I could to move and be happy.

If it's the second, then tell yourself that you're worth the energy -- that being talented, intelligent, kind, and strong has intrinstic value because it makes your life into a work of art. If no one ever saw the peaks of Kilimanjaro, they would not cease to be beautiful and majestic.

This is exactly what I want and how I want to feel about myself. It's the why underneath my workouts. I simply want to BE the person I'm working towards.

I think those words and this post has really cleared up my head. I've learned a lot from reading all of these ruminations and I think I can say things will definitely get better now.

[BarefootDawsy]

Jeez, I take a weekend off and you guys start all sorts...

...

...to find her.

Holy sh!t that was awesome.

[Waldo]

That sounds...odd. Pretty cool, but odd. If you have a 20+ second back lever, I would expect that you have a front lever. Or at least a straddle or one-leg out front lever.

Not necessarily.

The vast majority of weight trained people are pull deficient, sometimes severely. With the exception of the biceps in the chain. Likewise a lot have fairly weak abs (relatively speaking). If you are strong at curls, bench presses, and deadlifts, (and not overweight) the back lever should come easy.

The front lever is an entirely different beast though. The ab strength requirements are on a totally different plane than most ab exercises; even L-sits are laughably easy compared to holding a 1 leg lever, planks are in a same sphere as little pink dumbbells. And pulling weakness will show up in the shoulders with an inability to hold it. Pulling chain (esp the posterior head of the deltoid) and ab weakness, both common amongst weight trained folks, will show up in the form of people's back lever being WAY ahead of their front lever.

It may not be the case, but I'd expect the majority of people that got strong with weights before switching to BW exercise, as opposed to getting strong with BW exercise, to be well ahead on the back lever, with people that de-emphasized bent over rowing forms and did no ab work to have a huge difference between the two.

[Razor]

Waldo, I love all your posts. But I'm convinced you're a robot. Your kid is too cute to be human also. I bet he's a robot as well.

[Waldo]

Your kid is too cute to be human also. I bet he's a robot as well.

If so he's definitely NOT a protocol droid.

[RaeVynn]

You guys are all so awesome, it makes me almost wish I were single, so I could date you!

I did meet my husband online, though I did have to meet/date a few others through match.com... Most important thing I could tell you, is be honest. Don't play up your negatives, but don't make up positives.

Okay, carry on.

[Church]

Waldo, I love all your posts. But I'm convinced you're a robot. Your kid is too cute to be human also. I bet he's a robot as well.

^^^ seconded.

So what would Waldo-bot recommend for abdominal progression? Right now I'm doing side-plank push ups, hanging leg raises, and V-sits. I'm thinking of swapping v-sits for bicycle curls. I also do spiderman pushups, to get some emphasis on abdominal rotation/counter-rotation. I've found some great resources that I'll link to once I get into a computer, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

[quote name=Church;274071And Razor' date=' I totally agree. Cy needs a big 'ole badass medal of badass-awesomness

I believe the word you are looking for is "Badassery."

[Waldo]

^^^ seconded.

So what would Waldo-bot recommend for abdominal progression? Right now I'm doing side-plank push ups, hanging leg raises, and V-sits. I'm thinking of swapping v-sits for bicycle curls. I also do spiderman pushups, to get some emphasis on abdominal rotation/counter-rotation. I've found some great resources that I'll link to once I get into a computer, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

The strength required for levers can really only be gained by doing levers (I guess weighted pullups and ab wheels could get up to that resistance). While Dragon Flags (or the extremely closely related body levers) are a very cool exercise in their own right, they are also a front lever assistance exercise. The resistance is way, way higher than most other ab exercises. Doing them with bent knees or one leg straight lessens the resistance a great deal and leads to a logical progression.

http://www.alkavadlo.com/2010/12/the-dragon-flag/

[Church]

I've just looked into planche, lever and one arm push up progressions. I'm totally adding them into my routine for the next challenge. Probably just one day a week as a skill day or something. Along with pistol squats. I'm happy with my current routine with the bar bell, but I want to shift over to a more complete body weight routine. At least when I'm home and have better facilities to do so.

[161803398874989]

Skill work? My friend, planche, levers and one-arm pushups aren't skill work. That's strength work.

[Church]

This is true. I guess my brain was in stand-by while I was rising the bus.

[Waldo]

I guess my brain was in stand-by while I was rising the bus.

The force is strong with this one.

[Waldo]

Skill work? My friend, planche, levers and one-arm pushups aren't skill work. That's strength work.

They may look like there is some skill involved with planches/levers, but it is pretty much pure brute strength and little else.