Harvard School of Public Health Study Highlights Risk of Early Death from Red Meat

[oystergirl]

Aj, conventional eating PRE-1980 and the cholesterol hypothesis WAS eating heavier meat, mostly grass fed, little or no soy, little or no high fructose corn syrup, more butter. where is there any research showing that eating polyunsaturated fats like canola, low fat, high grain diet makes you live longer? please show me the research because I have never seen it.

[oystergirl]

I think it would benefit everyone to read the book In Defense of Food by Micheal Pollan which indicates that YES, researchers would indeed be that Stupid....

[Waldo]

Waldo, you just said something interesting to me, first you said you feel better eating a couple of piece of cake than you do eating french fries. Remember that the oil they are fried in at mcdonalds is canola oil.....then you said canola oil isn't a problem. You said yourself it makes you feel bad. Do you want to explain that?

I was pointing out the fact that an excess of grease makes many/most people feel like crap, including myself. It has nothing to do with its omega-3 balace or some other pseudoscientific explanation, it is an extreme concentration of calories, same as sweets. Most people will feel horrible after eating a few tablespoons of lard. This is no different than the whole carb flu insulin spike thing people always seem to talk about with regards to sugar (except to diabetics).

For some reason people always seem to villianize carbs. 1 fat calorie = 1 carb calorie. Simple as that. Though athletic performance is better when running on carb based fuel as it has a higher output capacity the way our bodies use the fuels. Because performance is higher, you can burn off your carb fuel faster via exercise (see the HIIT fad for example).

(though I do find it odd that paleo folk in general poo poo steady state cardio, the type of exercise ideal for a diet of predominantely fat based fuel, in favor of high intensity cardio and weight lifting, activities that diet of carb based fuel would be ideal for).

[Loren Wade]

'Eh, I regard all that chronic inflammation stuff with paleo as mostly nonsense. Convince people looking into the diet (that aren't doing it) that they have all this low grade inflammation that they didn't know about, that there is something wrong with them (could there be a better way to prey on a hypocondriac). This diet will then fix all these issues that we are telling you that you have like that you didn't know that you have. And since excess bodyweight is often called inflammation, it is said to cure this inflammation as well. LOL Of course some people really do have food allergies that they didn't realize they had. But I would wager this is a very small % of people, especially in the US (people are just like dogs in the sense that mutts tend to have fewer ailments than purebreds).

Actually, you're right. It sound quirky but that's true.

Dr. Lundell, a world class surgeon, one of the few who operates on beating hearts, gave my Grandpa a quadruple bypass a few years ago.

This guy said in one of his books that he has done open heart surgery on thousands of patients. He said every single one had inflammation around the heart. All of them.

This is significant because what you say in jest is actually the truth. We have inflammation we're not aware of.

[Waldo]

Actually, you're right. It sound quirky but that's true.

Dr. Lundell, a world class surgeon, one of the few who operates on beating hearts, gave my Grandpa a quadruple bypass a few years ago.

This guy said in one of his books that he has some open heart surgery on thousands of patients. He said every single one had inflammation around the heart. All of them.

This is significant because what you say in jest is actually the truth. We have inflammation we're not aware of.

So eating a grain free diet would cure this inflammation and end heart disease. I was not a aware that Sisson and Wolfe had made such an important discovery. Where is their nobel prize?

How is your example any different than a doctor that does root canals pointing out that every one of his patients had tooth decay, or a doctor that does deliveries pointing out that every one of his patients was pregnant. It isn't a stretch to say that everybody that needs open heart surgery has some kind of inflammation around their heart. I mean, they need open heart surgery.

[ETFnerd]

I think that we should just respect that each of us believes what we do with the best interpretation of the information available to us. As such, as long as we've been thoughtful about what we're eating, feel comfortable about our decisions and are happy to accept the consequences of our actions, then there's not anything wrong with many different courses of action.

My purpose was to present some information. If it's helpful great, if it's not, great. But let's try our best to be civil to one another as were all fellow travelers toward better health. Let's be respectful of differing POVs...

[oystergirl]

Waldo, I can eat half a stick of butter at a sitting and feel just fine, but if you gave me a tablespoon of canola oil I would vomit. The type of fat definitely has an influence and reaction in the body. Saying that all fat is the same is like saying that all carbs are the same, and we certainly know that a skittle is a carb and so is a piece of kale, but they make the body react in different ways!

[Silvernia]

I'd like to add (on the subject of nitrates) that we consume way more nitrates in veggies than we do bacon. "Nitrate-free" or "No added Nitrates" is a loop hole companies use because during the curing process they add celery juice instead, which is, consequently, chock full of nitrates.

I've also read that Vitamin C & E counter the negative effects of nitrates as well as not over cooking your bacon. Also, nitrates kill botulism so there's a risk of that too.

So many things have toxins in them that we'd go crazy and starve if we followed everything we're told. Food companies aren't always truthful and so many studies are financially backed by companies that have their own interests.

We're all so very different from one another that I'm not sure there's a "right" answer for what works for an entire population as big as our species. I recently saw an interview with a healthy man who was turning 100 and something and when they asked him his health secret he laughed and said he ate bacon every day of his life.

[Loren Wade]

So eating a grain free diet would cure this inflammation and end heart disease. I was not a aware that Sisson and Wolfe had made such an important discovery. Where is their nobel prize?

How is your example any different than a doctor that does root canals pointing out that every one of his patients had tooth decay, or a doctor that does deliveries pointing out that every one of his patients was pregnant. It isn't a stretch to say that everybody that needs open heart surgery has some kind of inflammation around their heart. I mean, they need open heart surgery.

I don't know where you got Sisson and Wolf from. Was quoting Dr. Lundell. Also, if you can't be respectful (the whole Nobel prize discovery jest), I won't respond to you.

And EXACTLY. They have inflammation, it's definitely a stretch if those people were there for bypass surgery. If cholesterol is to blame from high fat diets, why is there inflammation? There shouldn't be any. You can't equate that to pregnant patients. Terrible analogy, dude.

I think that we should just respect that each of us believes what we do with the best interpretation of the information available to us. As such, as long as we've been thoughtful about what we're eating, feel comfortable about our decisions and are happy to accept the consequences of our actions, then there's not anything wrong with many different courses of action.

My purpose was to present some information. If it's helpful great, if it's not, great. But let's try our best to be civil to one another as were all fellow travelers toward better health. Let's be respectful of differing POVs...

Agreed. We have no need to get in a tizzy.

Waldo, I can eat half a stick of butter at a sitting and feel just fine, but if you gave me a tablespoon of canola oil I would vomit. The type of fat definitely has an influence and reaction in the body. Saying that all fat is the same is like saying that all carbs are the same, and we certainly know that a skittle is a carb and so is a piece of kale, but they make the body react in different ways!

Agreed.

[MMyers]

Telling somebody that cured their inflammation problems with Paleo that it doesn't actually work and that all the inflammation was invented by the guys who "sell" Paleo is schoolyard nonsense.

I don't actually follow Paleo, I just eat with it in mind. Besides, since when did this become people taking out personal vendettas against a way of eating?

[Loren Wade]

Telling somebody that cured their inflammation problems with Paleo that it doesn't actually work and that all the inflammation was invented by the guys who "sell" Paleo is schoolyard nonsense.

I don't actually follow Paleo, I just eat with it in mind. Besides, since when did this become people taking out personal vendettas against a way of eating?

"Plus 1" & "Like"

[bigm141414]

Time for everyone to go to the pub have a beer, or a Nor-Cal margarita and relax for the rest of the day. We can pick it up again tomorrow

[oystergirl]

LOL-make mine a cabernet sauvignon! I agree with the no right diet for everyone because if you look at indigenous cultures there is so much variation, all based on whole foods and all kept their people's healthy. Some ate mostly whale blubber, some ate blood and milk. Very different....

[Zorch]

I gotta say, you and AJ Rock make the most sense to me. I completely disagree with the whole fatty greasy bacon everything paleo weirdness, but god forbid you stand against it.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

edit: I would like to know exactly how many people on NF who are paleo, purchase nitrate free bacon... maybe the majority do? if you are not, then i can assure you, that bacon is bad for you.

Honestly, while I follow paleo principles on many levels, some of the "OMG BACON" stuff is pretty over the top.

Hell, by paleo/Primal principles even nitrate-free pork/bacon is a pretty lousy food - pork is generally laden with tons of n-6 fats - an excess of which is considered a bad thing in the paleo/primal community. Very, very little of the pork in our country is fed the kind of diet that would give it a decent fatty acid profile.

[Loren Wade]

Honestly, while I follow paleo principles on many levels, some of the "OMG BACON" stuff is pretty over the top.

Hell, by paleo/Primal principles even nitrate-free pork/bacon is a pretty lousy food - pork is generally laden with tons of n-6 fats - an excess of which is considered a bad thing in the paleo/primal community. Very, very little of the pork in our country is fed the kind of diet that would give it a decent fatty acid profile.

Totally agree.

[Philociraptor]

For some reason people always seem to villianize carbs.

This is more straw man argument, just like spatz's "OMG GIMME MORE BACON" interpretation of Paleo dieters. Paleo does not hate carbs. It doesn't like grains or sugar. Veggies and tubers are fine.

[oystergirl]

I agree Zorch and why I buy pastured pork and for the record, I cook with pastured lard and butter more than I do bacon grease. I only eat bacon about 1 time a week and I throw in a tablespoon of coconut oil sometimes when I cook cause I don't get a lot of medium-chained fatty acids. I also take a fish oil supplement if I know the food I am eating has a funky FA profile.

Here is my final thought, and it is really what drives me. I love myself. I love my family. I have lived with suboptimal health during my lifetime for various reasons, and I have made the decision to do everything I can in my power to avoid that in the future. I am also a student of biology and understand the workings of the human body. I understand that the body is going to build things that it needs out of whatever it can get its hands on in an absence of the most directly correlated ingredient. That is wonderful! It's a miracle, but why NOT give it the optimal ingredient? Certainly some of the stuff is debatable, but if my body is going to make cell membranes, hormones, brain tissue, myliene, etc. out of saturated fats and prefers Omega 3 to Omega 6 in cell membrane construction, and muscle out of amino acids present in complete form in meat, why would I not eat it? That's simply my thought on the matter, and most indigenous cultures agree with that, and live that, and that is fine with me.

[kombimankenny]

It's a well known fact that Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore, eating red meat could prevent mass genocide and anyone who says otherwise is a Nazi.

(Just thought I'd skip all the reason and logic and fast forward to this thread's inevitable conclusion)

[oystergirl]

ROTFLMAO!!!!

[Arashi]

It's a well known fact that Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore, eating red meat could prevent mass genocide and anyone who says otherwise is a Nazi.

(Just thought I'd skip all the reason and logic and fast forward to this thread's inevitable conclusion)

LOL! Godwin's Law is infallible...

[ETFnerd]

It's a well known fact that Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore, eating red meat could prevent mass genocide and anyone who says otherwise is a Nazi.

(Just thought I'd skip all the reason and logic and fast forward to this thread's inevitable conclusion)

Yes, correlation is not causation, I get it.

So much so that it is used ad infinutum by the cigarette industry to prove that smoking doesn't cause cardiovascular disease and lung, mouth, throat cancer.

Because of course, it could be sunspots, or pollution, or inflamation from eating grains that causes cardiovascular disease and lung, mouth, throat cancer, not smoking.

Again, no one in this study is implying causation, just correlation...

[Loren Wade]

This is more straw man argument, just like spatz's "OMG GIMME MORE BACON" interpretation of Paleo dieters. Paleo does not hate carbs. It doesn't like grains or sugar. Veggies and tubers are fine.

Mhmm! Completely agree.

[ETFnerd]

ROTFLMAO!!!!

LOL! Godwin's Law is infallible...

I guess if this discussion irritates you, this is one strategy to try to get it shut down and squashed...

I am also surprised that you find the use of this tactic amusing... do you know what Godwin's Law is? I feel this discussion is taking a really ugly turn... frankly i am really disappointed by what this discussion has deteriorated into...

[llsoszynski@gmail.com]

It's a well known fact that Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore, eating red meat could prevent mass genocide and anyone who says otherwise is a Nazi.

lol

That is my contribution to this debate.

Thank you.

[llsoszynski@gmail.com]

never heard of Godwin's law: It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches."

hahahahahaha.