Friendzones, Nice Guys, Geek Girls, Nerdy Romance Stuff

[Suominatua]

Hmm... I've never had a girl-friend per-say (if your parents say you have a girl friend when you are 4... I'm pretty sure that doesn't count XD )

However, I never gave a crap about girls in that way until my senior year of high-school, never even considered it. By that point, all the girls I liked were dating my good friends and so since I liked the guys who they ended up with I wasn't really 'unhappy'. Strangely (or at least it was to me)... there were a bunch of underclassman girls who had crushes on me, but It was mostly because I was just some upperclassmen guy who was nice to them. I would've taken up a few of them on it, but none of them seemed to be able to carry on a conversation with me about things I'm interested about (philosophy, politics, technology) and could only repeat phrases like "You're so smart." or similar veins without adding anything.

I've only 'asked' one girl out, last year. Was turned down.

IDK... I like the idea of a girlfriend... I'm a Romantic Idealist, though, so I don't really just ask out any girl I meet.

I've changed my outlook, joined Latin and Ballroom Dancing, began working on myself physically (and of course, mentally is always a challenge at college) but that was more for myself than it was to 'get a girl'.

In the end... the only girl who ever tried to 'seduce' me when she had a boyfriend (almost worked) said It was because I was a nice guy.

I've had the 'conversation' with a few girls like AkLulu talked about, about our feelings towards each-other. I've been on both sides of it, and while it's certainly a heart drop for a day when you are the one attracted to the other and they don't think anything about you, it's still better to know ^.^ And on the other side, it's sort of a nice thing to know, a slight confidence booster I would say, when you know someone likes you.

Oh well~ In the end *shrugs* I'll just continue on my path based on my ideals and let the pieces fall where they may. Whether or not I find the right girl depends as much upon me as it does upon the girl, so I can only control my half of the deal and make myself as good of a human as possible both for myself and for the future girl who may or may not exist.

[GreenEyesBright]

:Bursts into song: "Don't stop believing... Ohhh oh ooohhhh..."

Frankly when I meet the right guy, I'm gonna smack him and ask what the hell took him so long!

Go Big or Go Home! Sent from my Atrix using Tapatalk.

[Durandal]

I like the point Suo and others have made. Be the best person you can be now, so you're better prepared when opportunity knocks. I used to see & treat relationships as some kind of goal or objective. Now I think of it as more of an ongoing process, kind of like working out or being close friends with someone. It's not about hitting a milestone and declaring victory, but instead it's all about being a better person. It's about defining and redefining who I am, over & over again.

Thinking back, one thing I noticed was that I'd always change who I was or how I thought if I believed it'd better my chances of dating/sleeping with someone. It wasn't always an obvious shift but it was always there in some form of another. I wasn't comfortable with who I was; I was insecure. And I became 5x worse when it seemed like everyone else was hooking up and I was the only person missing out on the fun.

I used to really overthink the whole dating angle/friend zone/nice guy attitude. It became much more complicated than it should've been. I personally found a lot more peace with the matter when I just simplified it by ignoring what everyone else was doing and concentrating on what I personally wanted in a relationship. Then I started leveling up so even if I didn't meet anyone special, I'll still be awesome and live a fulfilling life.

See what I'm getting at here? In the past I had shitty self esteem and defined myself by the girls I wanted to date, most of who were almost as clingy as I was. Now I'm writing my own definition of who I am, and I expect the same out of anyone who I'd want to date. If I meet no one like that, fine.

I'm a strange guy, and I always used to think being so weird was an obstacle towards being in love. The truth couldn't be farther removed; I was confusing superficial attraction with what love must really be. As the saying goes, it's all about finding someone whose weirdness is compatible with ours. I'd rather be picky about it, instead of feeling like I'm dependent on finding a partner.

Apologies for the rant but this is something I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about. If I can prevent one other person from making the same dumb-ass mistakes I have, I can die a happy man.

(And yeah, I quoted Dr. Seuss. He's the man.)

[AuroraNorth]

Oh well~ In the end *shrugs* I'll just continue on my path based on my ideals and let the pieces fall where they may. Whether or not I find the right girl depends as much upon me as it does upon the girl, so I can only control my half of the deal and make myself as good of a human as possible both for myself and for the future girl who may or may not exist.

I think this is a good way to look to the future.

[GreenEyesBright]

Exactly my thoughts! "Are you the person that the person you're looking for is looking for?" Am I the kind of woman that my dream guy would want in his life?

Go Big or Go Home! Sent from my Atrix using Tapatalk.

[The Tin Man]

You ever watched Stargate SG-1?

<3 SG-1

A lot of people run when the fire fizzles out, and real love is required.

When your SO has to deal with illness, grief, depression, anxiety, etc and you are left holding down the universe while they can do nothing for you, and you stay and push through and care for them, lose sleep at night, push them to get the help they need, and fight for what you've built together, even when they aren't fighting with you...that is love.

I have been on both sides of this love personally, and I've seen it in action in others' lives as well. When you finally break through all the anger, resentfulness, pride, rebelliousness and grief, there on the other side of those dark clouds lies the most beautiful, satisfying love you will ever experience.

It's the kind of love you see in old people's faces, the ones who die of broken hearts when their SO passes away. They've spent so many years giving of themselves for another person, that when the other one goes, their heart can't bear not to follow.

It's an all-encompassing love. There plenty of fire and passion to go with it, but even without all that, it's real and deep and final...and becoming more and more rare.

Is someone cutting onions in here?

Frankly when I meet the right guy, I'm gonna smack him and ask what the hell took him so long!

Ahaha I love this!

[Atalan]

I think the problem is that a lot of guys (I'm sure this happens with women too, but I see it most often with guys, so it's my experience) only befriend a girl in order to start a relationship with her later on. And then are upset when the girl doesn't return their affections. Being someone's friend is not a guarantee they will fall in love with you. I think that was Scarletheavy's point - it's not a game, so you won't be allowed access to the next level (lovers) just because you were nice in the first level (friends).

I think this comes from their experience that the only way they've been able to see a girl more than once, spend time with her, ect. has been from friends. They've had exactly 0 success trying for a relationship at the outset.

I was this way for a long while, and still catch myself and have to step back, "Okay, are you attracted? Let her know. Otherwise, proceed to friendship."

Other notes, I'm still on 0 success, and the best/worst advice is "be more confident." It's the best because it's correct. It's the worst, because you have to try being confident about doing something you have only ever failed at.

[Arashi]

I think this comes from their experience that the only way they've been able to see a girl more than once, spend time with her, ect. has been from friends. They've had exactly 0 success trying for a relationship at the outset.

I was this way for a long while, and still catch myself and have to step back, "Okay, are you attracted? Let her know. Otherwise, proceed to friendship."

Other notes, I'm still on 0 success, and the best/worst advice is "be more confident." It's the best because it's correct. It's the worst, because you have to try being confident about doing something you have only ever failed at.

Yeah, this whole being confident thing is great - in theory. Reality is a bit harder, for both men and women. But when a guy befriends you, and you end up trusting him, only to have him throw your friendship away (and occasionally throw a hissy fit) when you don't want to sleep with him... it sucks. You feel used. It is one thing to say 'I'll need some time away to process this rejection' (totally fair), it is another thing when people resent you for something that's not your fault - after all, you cannot be held responsible for another person's crush.

[Rosen]

A great defination of frindzone and why it happens , taken from another site:

Homosocial bonding is different between men and women, and this causes a lot of confusion and why it's assumed that men and women cannot be friends.

Men see their friendships as camaraderie, hanging out, occasional complaining, and chilling. There's plenty of support mechanisms in place, but they're not intimate, per se.

Women on the other hand are intimate, affectionate, they talk more about how they feel than how things happened. The support mechanisms are explicitly intimate.

So, men who are not used to intimate physical contact and discourse have to translate a person of the opposite sex being physically and emotionally intimate beyond the boundaries of relationships he is used to.

Women may say that this is really the man's fault for getting his hopes up, but it's worth noting that scientists have found that this disparity in relationships has an actual significant effect on different genders. Men and women are socially programmed differently.

As the study shows, women share their emotional intimacy through much broader networks. They don't restrain it for that one special person. They give it out freely. They take it in easily.

And also, as the study shows, men reserve their emotional intimacy for one special person. They rely on that person. They hold back until they find someone they can trust and then pour it out to them.

This actually makes male intimacy a far more dear thing than female intimacy. This is why men "overreact." This is why men panic. Above all, this is why the Nice Guy misreads his interactions with a woman he likes.

Of course, this has an interesting side-effect. To wit, when bad relationships end and men are single, they actually do better emotionally than single women do because what a man derived from the relationship had a higher cost for him. Men don't mind being called "single," what they mind is having their only intimate outlet being in jeopardy or, worse, being turned against them, such as in a bad relationship.

EDIT: fixed the wording of the above.

In opposition to this, when women are single, they actually do worse than when they are in bad relationships. A woman in a bad relationship still has her emotional network intact. A woman who is single has instead had her relationship status changed.

Now you can look at the nice guy phenomenon through a sharper lens. Men are used to emotional intimacy being saved for a special person, women are not. Women find emotional stability in poor romantic relationships, while men do not.

This confuses the fuck out of the Nice Guy. None of this makes sense. A woman is being emotionally intimate with him, he thinks he's special since that's how he would act. A woman stays in a bad relationship, he thinks it's illogical since that's not how he would act. Combined, this becomes the "I would be good to you, what's wrong with you!" mindset.

Of course, he doesn't understand that a woman has cultivated many intimate relationships with friends and family while he has been working on the one trying to develop a romance. The woman doesn't need to get her emotional support from her romantic relationship. In fact, she can spend all day talking about how bad her relationship is -- but at least she's not single, and maybe her partner provides some other value beyond emotional intimacy.

In regard to how the nice guy is viewed, the woman sees his actions as those of just another friend, since that's how she would act toward her friends -- freely intimate, physically affectionate. When the guy doesn't get what he wants, she will sometimes feel betrayed, primarily because he has willingly integrated himself into her network and then has destroyed the status quo.

Ninja-Edit: It's worth noting that there become unspoken non-rules about flirting and relationships. If a man is physically affectionate with multiple women, it's probably safe to befriend him since he probably isn't going to balk at his intimacy not developing into romance. It also probably means that he's not going to respond to romantic advances as quickly. Interestingly enough, this may all be at the root of our inculcated romantic steps. Men are usually non-intimate, so intimacy means romantic interest. Women are usually intimate, so sexual interest means romantic interest. Oddly enough, there is still an expectation for men to make the first move in such an environment.

Over the years, a mix of misogyny, misandry, entitlement, and sheer ignorance and indifference to all parties involved have turned this issue into a point of contention. Everyone is trying to translate it through a universal precept of human interaction, often ceding to one side or the other points they have not actually managed to make out of politeness or self-loathing or whatever.

As you can see, men get over it faster than women do. Not universally, of course, but men are more comfortable being single than women are. This is where the myth of "commitment-phobic" men comes in. For men, advances in one's relationship are emotionally expensive, each step more costly than the next. For women, it is effectively a status change.

Like all studies, generalizations are merely a recognition of the trend in a group. Personal anecdotes and asides are all well and good and I am not trying to discount them. That said, the trends are apparent.

TL;DR Male platonic relationships are friendly camaraderie, female platonic relationships are intimate and physical. When men try to be friends with women, they sometimes misinterpret each other's intent and feel betrayed when things do not go as expected.

This also has an effect on initiated romantic relationships as well, since each partner is investing and seeking something different in each stage.

[bprime]

"Friend zones" don't exist. It's a term made up from guys who don't know how to attract women. Let's move on from this stupid concept.

[Atalan]

"Friend zones" don't exist. It's a term made up from guys who don't know how to attract women. Let's move on from this stupid concept.

A number of women in this thread have said they find it weird when their male-friends try to be more than friends.

If that's not the friend-zone, I don't know what is.

[IrishAmazon]

"Friend zones" don't exist. It's a term made up from guys who don't know how to attract women. Let's move on from this stupid concept.

This! This is so, so, so true. And it's such a self-defeating concept.

[demonslayer]

I'm married, but I'm in a very male-centric career and have very male-centric hobbies so it would be silly not to be allowed to have male friends ... but that means that any guy I'm friends with is "friend-zoned" by default because I have no interest in being unfaithful to my husband. Some of my male friends are pretty hot, too, so if I were single or polygamous ... but I'm not, so the point is moot .

The problem with "nice guys" is a lot of guys who claim to be nice guys, really aren't. I learned my lesson the hard way with a guy who was moping about with the "I'm a nice guy, nobody wants me" line, and so of course, I being young and naiive, went all "I will want you! <3 <3" and only then did he show his true colors as a douche.

[Strawberry Squatcake]

The problem with "nice guys" is a lot of guys who claim to be nice guys, really aren't. I learned my lesson the hard way with a guy who was moping about with the "I'm a nice guy, nobody wants me" line, and so of course, I being young and naiive, went all "I will want you! <3 <3" and only then did he show his true colors as a douche.

Sadly, this is me. I'm the naive girl. And once you have one guy do that to you, even if you consciously try not to be cynical, it's hard to not learn from those mistakes.

[Arashi]

On the subject of the 'Nice Guy who is really a Douche Guy', I'll never stop recommending the Livejournal post that is linked in the first page of this thread.

[Guest Gemeaux]

Yeah I fell for the " nice guy " a few times .

[Zorch]

I like the point Suo and others have made. Be the best person you can be now, so you're better prepared when opportunity knocks. I used to see & treat relationships as some kind of goal or objective. Now I think of it as more of an ongoing process, kind of like working out or being close friends with someone. It's not about hitting a milestone and declaring victory, but instead it's all about being a better person. It's about defining and redefining who I am, over & over again.

Completely agree with this - I've found that by focusing on making myself a better person, I've become more comfortable in my own skin. This has translated to me being more relaxed and confident in a variety of situations which generally yields good results, as one might expect. Calm + Confident goes over well with... well, almost everyone.

Also I think the "process" part applies to relationship-seeking as well - the goal shouldn't necessarily be "I HAVE TO GET A GIRLFRIEND NOW!", it should be more about the process of putting oneself in situations where good things can happens, and then allowing things to play out, and being ready when a good opportunity does present itself - not necessarily the first person who happens to show some sign of interest.