Discovery of the Size Acceptance Community

[kombimankenny]

What an interesting read, I love seeing ideas that hadn't crossed my mind before. I've always been a bit overweight, but generally carried it fairly well so I've not dealt with being clearly labelled as "fat". I think it's definitely a great idea in creating greater awareness that your health and fitness are the most important thing, and weight loss may or may not be a side effect of that. It's similar fighting the kind of attitudes people have towards mental illness eg "Suffering from depression? Just cheer the hell up".

I can see there are going to be people who live an unhealthy lifestyle, and as a result have become fat, who will dumb this idea down to "Being fat is OK, so I don't have to change anything" and use it as an excuse to continue their behaviour. But if people are determined not to change, they'll always find a way not to and the existence of the fat acceptance movement has little bearing on that.

[Zorch]

Without having read any of these links directly....

There is a lot of good to it, however the many hide behind the few. Yes you can be overweight and in great shape. Heck look at every NFL lineman. But way too many people are identify with the few that actually are overweight and in great shape, and try to hide among them, lying to themselves even.

And yes, being skinny and out of shape is no better. These people are a mysterious bunch, so many emulate them (all those people that try to lose weight with mostly diet), yet at the same time so few realize that it really isn't much improvement, being skinny and out of shape doesn't do a whole lot for your ego, and does little for your health.

My view on the matter is pretty close to Waldo's. I think I'd summarize it as the following:

1. Every human being deserves to be treated with decency and dignity

2. There are a number of people that are overweight for reasons(endocrine disorders/unusual genetics) that aren't completely within their control

3. There are a larger number of people that are overweight due to factors that ARE primarily within their control

4. Health as a product of a good diet and an active lifestyle should be the primary goal; for those that aren't in the group described by #2 above, this should naturally lead to a weight/body composition that is reasonably "normal", or not too far from it.

5. See #1. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity - however, this doesn't change the reality that most of us can exercise a reasonable degree of control over our own destinies - and in cases where it seems like we can't, we probably need to start by approaching the problem a little differently. Stating this does not make someone intolerant/a bad person, so long as they observe point #1 above(and they should recognize the validity of #2 as well).

I speak to the above as someone who was significantly overweight in the past, for whom psychological factors were a major factor in weight gain, and overcoming those psychological issues was a significant part of my weight loss. Obesity is a complex problem, and I think the real root causes vary from person to person - but in the end most of the causes can be addressed - the challenge is that often this is a case-by-case basis, and what works for one person may be completely different from what works for another.

[161803398874989]

And yet you were comfortable starting with "There is not a single reason to be obese. If you are, it's because you let yourself go. If you're not willing to change that, you're not worth my time". And even beyond that, even if their reason is 100% willpower, you have no idea if that 300lb person used to be a 450lb person. And even if they weren't, they may be kind people, clever people, creative people, but because they look a certain way they're not worth your time?

That kind of judgemental attitude is exactly what that fat acceptance movement is a reaction to - people being told that they're not worthy just because of their body type.

Alright, that was an overstatement.

Also, if you are helping yourself, that is abso-fucking-lutely awesome. I'm serious, it's great. So if a 450 lb person became a 300 lb person and is still exercising, they have my full encouragement. If I see an obese person in the gym I don't think: "Stupid obese person, get away from my gym", it's not like that at all.

It's just that when an obese person isn't willing to change despite knowing that he/she ought to, if only for health reason. THAT gets on my nerves. A bunch.

i think people who received the same top scores/times/distance can share a gold medal... so everyone could have had the same winning time and everyone could theoretically win... ;-)

This isn't a fair comparison. To win the Olympics, you have to give up virtually everything else. While getting to a healthy weight doesn't take that much effort.

[epaleocookbooks]

There is a lot of good to it, however the many hide behind the few. Yes you can be overweight and in great shape. Heck look at every NFL lineman. But way too many people are identify with the few that actually are overweight and in great shape, and try to hide among them, lying to themselves even.

I couldn't agree more. As someone who was class II morbidly obese with hypothyroidism (previously 265lbs at 5'5", now 170), I definitely have my own take on the whole fat acceptance thing (and it may offend people, so if that's the case, then I apologized in advance).

My husband was a powerlifter, so I've spent a lot of time around some BIG dudes who were perfectly healthy. It's not unusual for someone to be 290lbs, solid muscle and be healthy as a horse. I like to call them "obeast". I also know plenty of "skinny fat people" - those people who are super thin, practically malnurished, but have no muscle tone and are constantly ill because their diet sucks. These skinny fat people aren't any better off on the health scale than the morbidly obese who's diets suck and they don't exercise.

I'm all about loving who you are, but to a point. If who you are is going to make you sick or risk injury to yourself, then I think you should change it. It may be true that obesity doesn't increase your risk of Type II Diabetes or heart attack, though I'm not sure I believe that, but it's certainly true that carrying around extra weight puts added strain on joints and causes all kinds of knee and back problems. If you don't believe me, ask any chick with big boobs who doesn't work out and they'll tell you they have back pain. Maintaining a healthy weight isn't about vanity, it's about HEALTH. Why risk something that can be prevented?

I can't help but feel like all of these fat acceptance groups just serve to provide a shield for people to hide behind. I'm sure that's not the case for all of their members. There are plenty of people out there who join them because they're looking for others in a similar state to motivate each other towards self-improvement, and that's great. However, for every one of those, there are two others just looking for people to tell them that fat is the new norm and everyone will come around eventually. It reminds me of Wall-E.

I personally believe that everyone should just strive for the best version of themselves possible. If you're healthy, fit and you like what you see when you look in the mirror, then awesome. Ignore anyone who gives you crap. However, if you're not healthy, you're not fit and you don't like the person in the mirror, then change it. No excuses. Stop looking for people to give you validation, and give it to yourself.

[ellystar]

I can't help but feel like all of these fat acceptance groups just serve to provide a shield for people to hide behind. I'm sure that's not the case for all of their members. There are plenty of people out there who join them because they're looking for others in a similar state to motivate each other towards self-improvement, and that's great. However, for every one of those, there are two others just looking for people to tell them that fat is the new norm and everyone will come around eventually. It reminds me of Wall-E.

I personally believe that everyone should just strive for the best version of themselves possible. If you're healthy, fit and you like what you see when you look in the mirror, then awesome. Ignore anyone who gives you crap. However, if you're not healthy, you're not fit and you don't like the person in the mirror, then change it. No excuses. Stop looking for people to give you validation, and give it to yourself.

I agree with these points so much. It shouldn't be "thin" or "skinny" that's acceptable and desirable by society, it should be healthy. It doesn't help when Bob Harper from The Biggest Loser comes out with a book called "The Skinny Rules: The Simple, Nonnegotiable Principles for Getting Thin." I find that the word "thin" was used instead of "healthy" to be a very, very poor choice. I wonder if it was he or the publisher who chose that.

[msuroo]

I find that the word "thin" was used instead of "healthy" to be a very, very poor choice. I wonder if it was he or the publisher who chose that.

Regardless of who made the decision, that word choice was not an accident - it will sell more copies that way.

[VorJoshigan]

I have spent most of my life consumed with a burning hatred of myself, my fat, and my lack of control over my weight. Like the rest of you here at NF, I'm pretty smart, so I've known exactly what I needed to do to lose weight for several years but I never acted, or at least not successfully. What 1618* said? That's what I've been saying to myself for decades. And worse. Much worse.

That being said, I really wish the fat acceptance community was called the SELF acceptance community. As I'm slowly coming to understand, you can love your self while also desiring to make a change.

Beyond that, I agree about 99% with Zorch. I have zero negative feelings towards somebody who is fat accepting, but I have positive feelings towards somebody who has decided to make a change.

The only negative I have towards "fat acceptance" is when some of them ask for special legal protections, but that probably has more to do with my politics than anything else.

[Raikas]

Ignore anyone who gives you crap.

That's easy for adults, but what if the person in question is a 10-year-old who is being shamed by a parent? I think that's where the desire to change the bigger culture comes in.

Maybe I'm not reading the same blogs, but my biggest take away from that community (and now that I think of it, maybe I've been reading more of the "health at any size" stuff as opposed to the straight fat acceptance stuff) is less "be as fat as you want, pass the doughnuts" and more "no one deserves to be shamed because of their appearance". I've been known to tease people about weight (in a good natured way, but still), and reading some of that has honestly made me rethink the way I talk about it.

[ellystar]

Regardless of who made the decision, that word choice was not an accident - it will sell more copies that way.

Most definitely. I should have clarified, I think from a marketing/branding standpoint it's the best word to use because it will sell the most copies. But from a... I guess "moral" standpoint, for lack of a better term, and what someone like Bob should be supporting, it's not cool. That show just angers me now and I used to be huge fan. They focus so little on food, unless it's an in-show advertisement, and don't do enough to focus on changing lifestyles. Instead it's all about working out as much as possible to lose as much weight as possible in the course of the show.

[Waldo]

That's easy for adults, but what if the person in question is a 10-year-old who is being shamed by a parent? I think that's where the desire to change the bigger culture comes in.

....or the parent being shamed by the 10 year old, which might even be worse.

[Shoshie]

Wow, I'm surprised and happy to see so many people here who are familiar with fat acceptance and health at every size! I've been practicing HAES for about 4 years now, and oh man, my quality of life is better. I yo-yo dieted a million times through middle school, high school, and college. HAES and FA taught me that my body wasn't something to be ashamed of, but something to be treated well with nutritious food and enjoyable activity. Before, I never would have had the courage to be the fattest chick in a dance class or a yoga class. I'd never have had the courage to pick up a barbell. And I'd still be living on defrostable Weight Watchers crap-in-a-box because it's low calorie and shit like that.

I think the two biggest takeaways that I got from FA were:

a) You can't tell how healthy a person is from the way they look.

Everyone makes choices about what to prioritize for their health, as an all-encompassing principle. If someone decides they need a bowl of ice cream to get them through a hard day, that's their choice. If I choose a high-risk profession (oh, hi, chemistry graduate school), then that is my choice. If someone decides to do marathoning, knowing that there's a decent chance that they may blow a knee, then that is their choice. It's all about personal autonomy being paramount, and people knowing best about what their priorities are in their situation.

[BeckyBuckeye]

....or the parent being shamed by the 10 year old, which might even be worse.

Or the 10 year old being shamed by the bullies at school, or the parent being shamed indirectly by society, or "good-natured" teasing by friends, or whatever. It's not really easy at any age, it's just that by the time you're an adult, you've gone through enough of it to know how to cope better.

[Shoshie]

Or the 10 year old being shamed by the bullies at school, or the parent being shamed indirectly by society, or "good-natured" teasing by friends, or whatever. It's not really easy at any age, it's just that by the time you're an adult, you've gone through enough of it to know how to cope better.

That's exactly how Marianne Kirby, who is basically my FA hero, puts it. In an awesomely nerdy way, I must add.

[BeckyBuckeye]

That's exactly how Marianne Kirby, who is basically my FA hero, puts it. In an awesomely nerdy way, I must add.

That is pretty awesome

[ETFnerd]

i'm definitely a marianne kirby fan now... thanks for sharing...!!!

don't hate fat people... don't hate skinny people... don't hate... one love...

[ETFnerd]

i want to be fit... i want to lose weight... i want to look good... i want to be healthy... i am vain...

the size acceptance community made me... forced me to ask myself why i need to do this... i took it for granted that that's what i wanted... but never reflected on what my deep rooted reasons are for why i want it...

the size acceptance community made me realize that i was reaching... trying to relieve my years of being overweight and obese by transforming myself into a different state... a healthier state... but not only healthier but also as a more beautiful me.. one that i could accept more than the large person i had become in the past...

the size acceptance community made me realize that i can love myself at any size... i am not my container... i am the sum of my actions... i am the imprint that i leave in this world... i am each the glimmer of hope that i can impart to another human being and help them believe that they too are wonderful... i am defining myself and my worth by the happiness that i can bring to another human being... and as i type this... i can't stop crying...

thank you size acceptance community... for readjusting my compass in life...

[Moxie Hart]

Thats awesome ETF.

[ZenGwen]

I've been aware of the size acceptance community for quite a while now, and for the most part, I agree with everything that's been said in this thread. It's great that people who are of a larger size than is generally thought of as ideal can love themselves for who they are. I don't have a problem with that whatsoever - actually, I think it's fantastic. People on both ends of this spectrum bitch at each other and... there's just no need. It may not be my thing, I may not find you attractive myself (although I might, surprisingly often) but as long as you find yourself attractive, that's awesome. If you're happy, I'm happy for you. If you accept your body, I will accept it too. I wouldn't make judgements about that any more than I would make judgements on any other aspect of someone else's lifestyle. And yes, I do know that people who are carrying around a bit more weight but still being active can be quite healthy.

But. There is one very common group of people who I still have a problem with. These are the people who are unhealthy and/or at a body weight which is far from ideal (either skinny or fat), clearly don't like it and will take every opportunity to tell you so, and yet will not do anything serious about it. It doesn't reach the point of "I don't have time for them", certainly I do on other things, but when the conversation gets onto these topics with them I have learned to generally just keep quiet because I am being more judgemental than I like, and although I can of course keep perfectly polite and friendly and helpful, it doesn't go anywhere and that frustrates me.

I have a number of friends like this. They will whine about their weight, but never take me up on my offers to take them along to the gym, or do C25K together, or cycle around the city with them so they get some confidence in traffic and can start cycling everywhere themselves, or let them try out a protein shake, or... anything. They don't have time. The gym is expensive. They don't like running. They don't want to count calories. They don't want to do something "extreme" like paleo, clean eating, or IF. Our city is too hilly and cobbled to cycle in (uhhh... myself and the other cyclists are clearly just weird paradoxical hullcinations). Oh my god, stop judging them, obsessive gym-rat! Sigh. I'm not judging them - I only care when they've made the judgement themselves, and aren't following up on it.

And then they'll go do something absolutely nuts like try to live off lemons and senna tea for a week, make themselves horribly ill, and conclude that they just can't be any healthier, so they must be healthy already.

That's what I have a problem with. (Not least because I was pretty similar until recently.)

[ETFnerd]

gwen... i think it's absolutely acceptable for an adult to:

1. choose to view their health as a secondary, terciary or bottom of the barrel priority. i think everyone has the right and freedom to make this choice. it affects their loved ones adversely but they are the ones who live with that through their choices.

2. be at a point in life, for whatever reason, where they don't have the capacity to help themselves to a better state. if others choose to help, that's what loved ones do for one another. if at a point in time someone is unable to see a choice, but sees something as destiny, they may be wrong, but do we as loved ones have the right to demean, berate, castigate, etc...? who has a right to kick someone in the pants if they don't do what you believe they should? a parent, a friend, a priest, stalin, the gang of 5 of the chinese cultural revolution and the re-education labor camps... you can justify a lot of awful things for the "benefit" of another...

you have a problem with it... what should you do about it...?

to me the best teachers aren't the ones that force information down your throat... but those that come up with a way to engender understanding of the rigorous process everyone needs to go through to achieve their goals... probably with kindness, emanating from the realization that no one knows it all... no one even knows a lot...

don't know if i'm right or wrong... just thinking out loud...

[ZenGwen]

gwen... i think it's absolutely acceptable for an adult to:

1. choose to view their health as a secondary, terciary or bottom of the barrel priority. i think everyone has the right and freedom to make this choice. it affects their loved ones adversely but they are the ones who live with that through their choices.

Absolutely. I have no problem with that. I hope that was clear.

2. be at a point in life, for whatever reason, where they don't have the capacity to help themselves to a better state. if others choose to help, that's what loved ones do for one another. if at a point in time someone is unable to see a choice, but sees something as destiny, they may be wrong, but do we as loved ones have the right to demean, berate, castigate, etc...? who has a right to kick someone in the pants if they don't do what you believe they should? a parent, a friend, a priest, stalin, the gang of 5 of the chinese cultural revolution and the re-education labor camps... you can justify a lot of awful things for the "benefit" of another...

you have a problem with it... what should you do about it...?

to me the best teachers aren't the ones that force information down your throat... but those that come up with a way to engender understanding of the rigorous process everyone needs to go through to achieve their goals... probably with kindness, emanating from the realization that no one knows it all... no one even knows a lot...

don't know if i'm right or wrong... just thinking out loud...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, who's demeaning or castigating anyone? Stalin? Excuse me??

What I said was that I purposely don't say much in such conversations any more, because even though I remain perfectly friendly and polite and just offer to help, internally I'm still being more judgemental than I'd like to be. I don't like that, but it all stays in my own mind, at least. I would never, ever tear down a friend, even if I do get frustrated when they seem to want me to just listen to complaining and not actually do anything to help. I find that tiring and frustrating after a while, and I have a problem with that attitude. But the worst I would ever say to a friend is "Mmm, yeah, <insert platitudes>."

Before it gets to that point, I just try to be helpful by answering "Ugh, god, I'm nearly at a size 18" with "Well, if you're feeling worried, I'd be happy to show you around my gym sometime, there's a great pool" and "I hate this, I really, really need to get active" with "Well how about we start C25K together? I really need to work on my endurance too."

If someone is genuinely at a point in life where they can't alleviate a condition they have a problem with, then I have full sympathy. This is the case with one of my friends who has put on a lot of weight due to the medication she's on - losing it is just not in the picture, because she'd be fighting chemical effects, and she's having a hard enough time just coping with the condition she's medicated for. I have nothing but love, hugs, and support for her. But that is not the type of situation I was talking about, at all.

[ETFnerd]

i wasn't saying that you were doing that... just asking where the line is...

[ZenGwen]

The line depends on the person you're dealing with. For most of my friends, I won't push too hard, and would never say anything which could ever be construed to be in the least bit insulting, simply because I don't want to insult them. I just make offers (not even suggestions) where I can, and try to set a good example. But for a couple of my friends - mostly ones who are already making good progress - if I say "You should come to the gym with me/we should sign up for this event together" or "Dude, why are you eating that," they'll appreciate it. Ones who are really motivated and doing this stuff on their own already can often stand a bit of a kick in the butt for motivation. Wanting to catch up to my boyfriend's lifts certainly motivates me. If I give up on a set and he says "Pfft, weeeeaaak" that's good, I know he doesn't really think I'm weak, he's just trying to motivate me. And it works.

Like Steve says... it's important to have a Nemesis!

[LizOh]

What I said was that I purposely don't say much in such conversations any more, because even though I remain perfectly friendly and polite and just offer to help, internally I'm still being more judgemental than I'd like to be. I don't like that, but it all stays in my own mind, at least. I would never, ever tear down a friend, even if I do get frustrated when they seem to want me to just listen to complaining and not actually do anything to help. I find that tiring and frustrating after a while, and I have a problem with that attitude. But the worst I would ever say to a friend is "Mmm, yeah, <insert platitudes>."

The HAES community calls this "fat talk." It can be done by anyone! I have friends who are thinner, more active, stronger, run more, etc, who engage in that kind of talk and I think it's hurtful and irritating because

1) it feels passive aggressive. If you weigh 120 lbs. and I weigh 180, and you're fat and therefore ugly, then what am I? B*tch please, I ain't ugly.

2) it's used as a social bonding tool. If you think you're fat and therefore ugly, and I think I'm fat and therefore ugly, then we can be friends. Because we couldn't possibly have anything else in common?

3) it's used as a control mechanism. If I don't think I'm fat and therefore ugly, or if I'm just ok with being the weight I am, it means I'm not normal, and other people have a right to correct my behavior. Why did you buy the cake for the family function if you didn't want us to eat it? And of course, this has some social and political consequences. Women's bodies are supposed to be small and out of the way. Other people have written better stuff about this. My thinking though is, it's never about the people having the conversation and believing what they're saying. It's about people saying what they think they're supposed to say, and not realizing that there are consequences to those words.

4) But mostly, I just don't like the activity of fat talk because it's so negative. No matter how hard we're working, no matter how much we try, no matter what our priorities in life are, we aren't doing enough and don't deserve love. So, not only will we make it impossible for other people to love us by CONSTANTLY talking about ourselves and our terrible workout regimens, we will also make it impossible for us to love ourselves, which at the end of the day is the only think you can truly do for yourself, by constantly repeating for the benefit of everyone around us how unlovable we are.

I stopped with all that. If it happens around me now, I say "this makes me feel bad, let's talk about something else." It was really cool when my mom asked why and decided to join me in not doing it anymore. We still go on hikes, we still promote and support one another's health, but that doesn't have to come with all the psychological damage that came with it before.

/rant

[ZenGwen]

The HAES community calls this "fat talk." It can be done by anyone! I have friends who are thinner, more active, stronger, run more, etc, who engage in that kind of talk and I think it's hurtful and irritating because

1) it feels passive aggressive. If you weigh 120 lbs. and I weigh 180, and you're fat and therefore ugly, then what am I? B*tch please, I ain't ugly.

2) it's used as a social bonding tool. If you think you're fat and therefore ugly, and I think I'm fat and therefore ugly, then we can be friends. Because we couldn't possibly have anything else in common?

3) it's used as a control mechanism. If I don't think I'm fat and therefore ugly, or if I'm just ok with being the weight I am, it means I'm not normal, and other people have a right to correct my behavior. Why did you buy the cake for the family function if you didn't want us to eat it? And of course, this has some social and political consequences. Women's bodies are supposed to be small and out of the way. Other people have written better stuff about this. My thinking though is, it's never about the people having the conversation and believing what they're saying. It's about people saying what they think they're supposed to say, and not realizing that there are consequences to those words.

4) But mostly, I just don't like the activity of fat talk because it's so negative. No matter how hard we're working, no matter how much we try, no matter what our priorities in life are, we aren't doing enough and don't deserve love. So, not only will we make it impossible for other people to love us by CONSTANTLY talking about ourselves and our terrible workout regimens, we will also make it impossible for us to love ourselves, which at the end of the day is the only think you can truly do for yourself, by constantly repeating for the benefit of everyone around us how unlovable we are.

I stopped with all that. If it happens around me now, I say "this makes me feel bad, let's talk about something else." It was really cool when my mom asked why and decided to join me in not doing it anymore. We still go on hikes, we still promote and support one another's health, but that doesn't have to come with all the psychological damage that came with it before.

/rant

I'm really glad that this is a recognized thing, that it's not just me who doesn't like it. I am in total agreement with all of your reasons. I also have a couple of my own, and I'm wondering if they're just me being paranoid, or if other people have felt like this...

Sometimes, when my friends say "God I look so fat in this dress," I feel like they're fishing for compliments. Like that's when I'm supposed to step in and say "What are you talking about babe, you look absolutely gorgeous, let's go dancing." But I mess up this little script by going "It's a great dress, but if you're feeling self-conscious, how about checking out Pilates with me?" because when I was still really overweight, I hated people saying "No, no, you look great!" when I said I was going to start running/lifting weights/counting calories. That was genuinely not what I wanted to hear. Is that weird?

And the other part is, I still hate people saying that. I'm still trying to lose weight, but more importantly, I'm trying to settle into a very healthy lifestyle I can maintain. And sometimes I feel almost like in some situations, the "fat talk" is being done to sabotage me. Like if I'm hanging out with friends, there are often lots of home baked goodies. They're very tasty but I limit myself to just one or two now. But at some point, someone will go "Welllll, I really shouldn't, I've been putting on lots of weight when I really needed to be losing, but there's so many left! I guess I'll have one... Gwen, why don't you take care of some of these chocolate muffins for us? Go on! Treat yourself, you can afford it!" And then if I say no I make them look worse, and if I say yes I feel bad and annoyed because I'm already treating myself by having any of that stuff in the first place.

Is that just my paranoia? I don't know. I feel like since I've been getting fit, a lot of it has changed from "listen to me/bond with me" to "Say you're okay with this even though I'm not" and "Be the same as me again even though I'm saying we both want to be more like you." It makes me sad, because I just want both of us to be happy with who we are not pressure the other either way.

[LizOh]

I'm really glad that this is a recognized thing, that it's not just me who doesn't like it. I am in total agreement with all of your reasons. I also have a couple of my own, and I'm wondering if they're just me being paranoid, or if other people have felt like this...

Sometimes, when my friends say "God I look so fat in this dress," I feel like they're fishing for compliments. Like that's when I'm supposed to step in and say "What are you talking about babe, you look absolutely gorgeous, let's go dancing." But I mess up this little script by going "It's a great dress, but if you're feeling self-conscious, how about checking out Pilates with me?" because when I was still really overweight, I hated people saying "No, no, you look great!" when I said I was going to start running/lifting weights/counting calories. That was genuinely not what I wanted to hear. Is that weird?

And the other part is, I still hate people saying that. I'm still trying to lose weight, but more importantly, I'm trying to settle into a very healthy lifestyle I can maintain. And sometimes I feel almost like in some situations, the "fat talk" is being done to sabotage me. Like if I'm hanging out with friends, there are often lots of home baked goodies. They're very tasty but I limit myself to just one or two now. But at some point, someone will go "Welllll, I really shouldn't, I've been putting on lots of weight when I really needed to be losing, but there's so many left! I guess I'll have one... Gwen, why don't you take care of some of these chocolate muffins for us? Go on! Treat yourself, you can afford it!" And then if I say no I make them look worse, and if I say yes I feel bad and annoyed because I'm already treating myself by having any of that stuff in the first place.

Is that just my paranoia? I don't know. I feel like since I've been getting fit, a lot of it has changed from "listen to me/bond with me" to "Say you're okay with this even though I'm not" and "Be the same as me again even though I'm saying we both want to be more like you." It makes me sad, because I just want both of us to be happy with who we are not pressure the other either way.

I agree with all of the things you don't like about it. It helps to remember they aren't trying to sabotage you on purpose. It really has nothing to do with you at all - you don't even need to be in the room for another woman to have that conversation with herself. Its one of those things you have to do as a member of society, like Mother's Day. It's a test, there is a right way and a wrong way to respond, and if you do it correctly, you are a good person. Otherwise... in the case of fat talk, you're a self-righteous know-it-all who thinks I'm fat and ugly and that she's better than everyone else. And now we can gossip about you! Yay!

As I said, I find it really powerful to call it out. "Hey, stop talking about my friend like that" when someone is putting themselves down is an amazing way to wake a pal up, so then you can explain that there's this thing called fat talk, and it puts everyone in a terrible place, and we shouldn't do it anymore.