Plateau Issues - need help

[ranestorm]

I'm a noob here at NF but I've been a lurker for a while. I've been working out and eating right since the beginning of April. I lost 17lbs the first 6 weeks but since then...nothing. Not ONE single pound! Now, I know that muscle weighs more than fat, and yes, I've lost more fat but it's just hanging out and enjoying itself and it won't LEAVE! I was eating way too little for a long time (about 1000 calories a day) and I've upped it to about 1500 for the last week and a half or so, but still no changes. I bodyrock which is HIIT training 5-6 days a week. Usually a couple days a week I add another workout in somewhere. In September I'm going to start training for a 5K also, but I really want this fat to go away. I've gone from doing 15 pushups in 50 seconds to 45 pushups and 20 squats to 50 or so in 50 seconds. I've come leaps and bounds strength wise, but I'm dying to get rid of this jiggle. I've been sitting at this weight for 2 months or so and I haven't gone down sizes in clothing or anything since then. I need some advice...

As far as my eating goes, I do track every calorie I eat. I watch my food, I stay away from junk, I don't drink anything but water, and my protein intake is around 100-125g per day. help?!?!

[Toph821]

From what I've seen and heard around the threads, poundage isn't the most important. Measurements seem to be the best way to tell if you're actually making progress. Take body measurements and see if those are changing. You may be replacing fat with muscle, hence the lack of change, or even increase in weight.

[Waldo]

Plateauing is caused by eating too little or too much.

To break it you have to eat more or eat less. You have to figure out which applies to you. After making a diet change you can't expect to see any results from the change for at least 1-2 weeks (the body seems to have a momentum effect as it relates to diet), and you can expect a small bump in weight each time you raise calories as you are holding on to more glycogen and stuff in your guts (neither of which are fat).

I'd hazard a guess that you are eating too little, but hold at 1500 for at least 3 weeks from the date you started at that level to first get past the momentum period, and then to get past the time period that the lack of a whoosh can hide, to see if you actually are still plateaued at 1500.

HIIT plus eating too little does bad things to the body. You need ample calories to recover from HIIT or strength training or you will get hurt. It can be done in a deficit, but it is unwise to do it in a steep deficit for a long time.

[drewd420]

1000 cal a day??! No wonder you're seeing a stall, your body was in starvation mode... This happens due to an evolutionary adaptation to colder, food scarce months. As you take in less calories than required, your body would rather consume muscle than fat (as fat has a higher energy potential) during colder winter months when food was scarce. You didn't include your gender, height and weight in your post so I can't help you calculate your recommended calorie intake per day, but you can always google it or use myfitnesspal or any other calorie/food tracker. You then you subtract or add calories from your recommended intake depending on if you are cutting or bulking. 1200 cals a day is the going MINIMUM, less than that, you are in the danger zone.

Your body is probably on the edge of starting to burn fat over muscle, the longer you were in starvation mode, the longer it will take to shake your body out of it...

17 lbs in 6 weeks is impressive, but a lot higher than the recommended 1 lbs / week. You were over 2 lbs lost per week at that rate.

Your body needs cals to build muscle, starve it out, and you'll get nowhere, no matter how many HIITS, lifts, etc you do per week.

[Horsedog]

I'd hazard a guess that you are eating too little, but hold at 1500 for at least 3 weeks from the date you started at that level to first get past the momentum period, and then to get past the time period that the lack of a whoosh can hide, to see if you actually are still plateaued at 1500.

.

Agreed. Hold that 1500/day for a couple more weeks and re-assess. My experience with caloric intake increases/decreases is that my body requires 4 weeks to really show true scale movement. First 1-2 weeks are almost entirely water weight and intestinal weight fluctutations, week 3 is usually a bit of movement, but by week 4 the whoosh hits.

A potential counfounder for you is that you were eating too little to build muscle, and yet you were still improving your strength (I'd wager these improvements can be chalked up to neurological adaptations, not muscle mass increase). Now, though, you're eating more...and so you might have that conflicting whoosh - muscle mass is increasing. The body's super-inefficient at losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time, but if you were training/dieting niave as of April, it's possible that your body is doing both (losing fat and gaining muscle) at the same time. Do you have any idea if you're body fat % has gone down?

Not that it really matters - your strength is increasing, and strength (past the neurological adaptation phase) is a function of muscle mass. Sometimes it's just nice to see some measurable number go down when you're trying to shed fat

Stay the course - keep up the awesome work and you'll see those last lbs melt!

[ranestorm]

I started at 194 (my highest ever - including two pregnancies) and I'm sticking around 178 now. My BMI is 31 currently. It was 35 when I started. I've been eating 1500 calories for about 10 days now, but honestly, find it incredibly difficult to actually eat that many calories.

[Horsedog]

I started at 194 (my highest ever - including two pregnancies) and I'm sticking around 178 now. My BMI is 31 currently. It was 35 when I started. I've been eating 1500 calories for about 10 days now, but honestly, find it incredibly difficult to actually eat that many calories.

BMI is, at least in my opinion, not super-useful. It's merely a function of height and weight and isn't relevant to the whole population. Technically, I'm overweight (BMI of around 27.5)...except I'm not at all overweight, I'm very tall. You, if I'm doing the calculations correctly, are a bit on the shorter side (around 5'3"ish?). BMI is limited on that side of the height scale as well (not to mention the issues it has with muscular/skinny-fat people).

I was refering to your actual body fat % (total body weight - lean body mass = body fat. Body fat/total body weight = body fat %). Again, it's not really important but can give you some positive reinforcement cause, even if your weight remains the same, if your body fat % is decreasing then you are losing fat and gaining muscle....and losing fat is your goal.

Also, while you are obviously dilligent in tracking your calories in...are you also tracking caloric expenditures? I'm not into HIIT, but depending on the duration of those sessions, you could be running a fairly high caloric deficit, which, as Waldo stated, can cause a stall...

[drewd420]

It's true, BMI is BS. Most NBA basketball players are obese according to BMI. Body Fat % is the best measurement. Get a set of calipers for a few bux on amazon, have someone pinch and measure you in a few spots, take the average, that's your Body Fat. Track it's decrease over time, smile!

[Kishi]

You know, I was going to type out something about my confusion, but the more I typed, the more I realized that I'm not eating enough.

All the same, I can't shake this sense of confusion about the whole thing, and it's bugging me a lot. I've seen that for weight loss, you want to maintain a deficit of 500-1000 calories below your BMR (source). Why is that? Does going further than that initiate a starvation response in the body or what?

[ranestorm]

Yes, I'm 5'3". What are the 'few spots' for measuring Body Fat %? also, good to know BMI is a crock of shi*t. I am diligent about tracking caloric expenditures - to the best calculation estimates I can find. I've been considering buying a BodyBugg to see if my estimates are on the mark or not. I'm not sure if they're the best investment...suggestions?

[drewd420]

You know, I was going to type out something about my confusion, but the more I typed, the more I realized that I'm not eating enough.

All the same, I can't shake this sense of confusion about the whole thing, and it's bugging me a lot. I've seen that for weight loss, you want to maintain a deficit of 500-1000 calories below your BMR (source). Why is that? Does going further than that initiate a starvation response in the body or what?

Well basically, 500 under your BMR per day is 3500 cals/week under your base caloric need to maintain your weight. This varies by what type of lifestyle you live. 1000 calls less per day, well then you're losing 2lbs per week. If you start to push the limits of a deficit, say, under 1200 cals taken in per day as the accepted number, then your body begins to horde the fat, and gets it's energy elsewhere. If you're not eating enough calories, then the next best source of energy is muscle.

[drewd420]

Yes, I'm 5'3". What are the 'few spots' for measuring Body Fat %? also, good to know BMI is a crock of shi*t. I am diligent about tracking caloric expenditures - to the best calculation estimates I can find. I've been considering buying a BodyBugg to see if my estimates are on the mark or not. I'm not sure if they're the best investment...suggestions?

Here's a good site for testing w/ calipers. http://www.muscleandstrength.com/tools/how-to-measure-bodyfat-using-calipers.html Just quickly google'd body bug, it indicates it tracks your cals burned (through pedometer) and lets you record you cals consumed via food. I don't know, seems like a waste of $. You can track your cals burned for all types of activities manually with sites like myfitnesspal. Most machines at gyms spit out a cals burned summary if you input your age/weight with the programs. If you train outside, then there's cals burned calculations (some are built into these calorie tracking websites / apps) that you can use to estimate your calories burned during that particular activity.

[shortstuff]

Just quickly google'd body bug, it indicates it tracks your cals burned (through pedometer) and lets you record you cals consumed via food. I don't know, seems like a waste of $. You can track your cals burned for all types of activities manually with sites like myfitnesspal. Most machines at gyms spit out a cals burned summary if you input your age/weight with the programs. If you train outside, then there's cals burned calculations (some are built into these calorie tracking websites / apps) that you can use to estimate your calories burned during that particular activity.

I have found what my heart rate monitor says is different to what sites like myfitnesspal say I burnt when I run or walk. But in saying that I am only guessing what spead I run at and how far I go as I run/walk outside and have nothing to tell me how fast I am going. Although I have a hrm I think like what drewd420 said, although it is handly you don't really need something like a bodybugg or a hrm to calculate your cals burned, and can do without

[Horsedog]

You know, I was going to type out something about my confusion, but the more I typed, the more I realized that I'm not eating enough.

All the same, I can't shake this sense of confusion about the whole thing, and it's bugging me a lot. I've seen that for weight loss, you want to maintain a deficit of 500-1000 calories below your BMR (source). Why is that? Does going further than that initiate a starvation response in the body or what?

Hold on - BMR and maintenance calories are not the same. BMR is the daily calories required to just live - as in, if you literally slept all day, didn't move, just breathed, and kept your organs running - the calories required to do that is your BMR. Your maintenance calories is the caloric requirement you have to keep you at your current weight. It is much higher than your BMR because you start with your BMR, then add to it based on your activity level (sedentary, active, etc.).

For instance, my BMR is estimated to be around 2000 calories per day (based on a number of things like age, gender, height, weight, and body fat %). My maintenance calories, though, are 3000 calories per day. I'm 33, male, 6'5", 230 lbs, ~20% BF, slightly more active than sedentary.

The source you referenced is talking about maintenance calorie levels, not BMR. Consistently eating less than your BMR for very long can lead to a significant metabolism slowdown and is generally not recommended.

[Horsedog]

I have found what my heart rate monitor says is different to what sites like myfitnesspal say I burnt when I run or walk. But in saying that I am only guessing what spead I run at and how far I go as I run/walk outside and have nothing to tell me how fast I am going. Although I have a hrm I think like what drewd420 said, although it is handly you don't really need something like a bodybugg or a hrm to calculate your cals burned, and can do without

I agree. In terms of practicality, I wouldn't spend the money since there are loads of online calculators or apps that will tell you approximately how much you've burned doing a given activity. Keep in mind that ALL caloric intake/expenditure calculations (even from the bodybugg) are just estimates, not exact measurements. That being said, I love me a gadget and the bodybugg is a cool one

I'd recommend either getting someone to do the calipers for you (a trained professional - calipers are difficult to get right, doubly so if you are doing them on yourself) or buy a bioelectrical impedance analysis (BIA) scale (Tanita sells some nice ones, but it doesn't have to be fancy). The BIA scales get a lot of bad press, I know, but if you use it properly (i.e., follow the instructions - trust me, this is important ) the readings are just as accurate as you would be able to get from doing the calipers yourself. Granted, this is the more expensive route to go, so that's a consideration as well. Again, I know this is not the conventional wisdom regarding the calipers vs. BIA scales. However, I think it is the rare person that possesses the objectivity and training necessary to use calipers on themselves consistently. There's not really any solid research out there to indicate one way or the other. Let's put it this way - I'm a medical researcher and we provide our clinical study participants with a BIA scale when we want them to do home-based body-fat measurements. We don't provide them with the calipers because our experience has been that, for the general population, even if given initial instruction on how to use them, fail to do so properly and consistently.

Again, though, calipers are WAY cheaper...and you might be one of those uncommon individuals who can use the calipers properly There is lots of online training out there, and if you wanted to, you could take your own measurements and then go to a couple of professionals to see how your skills stack up

[Horsedog]

Yes, I'm 5'3". What are the 'few spots' for measuring Body Fat %? also, good to know BMI is a crock of shi*t. I am diligent about tracking caloric expenditures - to the best calculation estimates I can find. I've been considering buying a BodyBugg to see if my estimates are on the mark or not. I'm not sure if they're the best investment...suggestions?

So what kind of a caloric deficit do you generally run?

[ranestorm]

So what kind of a caloric deficit do you generally run?

I'm not 100% sure. my BMR is 1558. my total daily expenditures (1558*1.55) is 2414. holy cow! I was eating 1400 calories (or more) under this every day! I'm holding steady around 1500 calories (which is hovering extremely close to that 1000 calories per day). Now I'm wondering if even this is eating too little. I get so full now - I need to see what 1800 calories looks like over the course of a day. Right now I'm struggling with 1500.

[Horsedog]

I'm not 100% sure. my BMR is 1558. my total daily expenditures (1558*1.55) is 2414. holy cow! I was eating 1400 calories (or more) under this every day! I'm holding steady around 1500 calories (which is hovering extremely close to that 1000 calories per day). Now I'm wondering if even this is eating too little. I get so full now - I need to see what 1800 calories looks like over the course of a day. Right now I'm struggling with 1500.

Sometimes running the numbers is a bit of a shocker A couple of questions - why are you using the formula to calculate your daily caloric expenditures if you have actual , real-world data from tracking? The tracked numbers will give you a much more accurate number, whereas the calculation can only give you an estimate. Second question - what kinds of foods do you eat? Do you struggle with the volume of food, or the heaviness, or something else?

[Kishi]

Hold on - BMR and maintenance calories are not the same. BMR is the daily calories required to just live - as in, if you literally slept all day, didn't move, just breathed, and kept your organs running - the calories required to do that is your BMR. Your maintenance calories is the caloric requirement you have to keep you at your current weight. It is much higher than your BMR because you start with your BMR, then add to it based on your activity level (sedentary, active, etc.).

For instance, my BMR is estimated to be around 2000 calories per day (based on a number of things like age, gender, height, weight, and body fat %). My maintenance calories, though, are 3000 calories per day. I'm 33, male, 6'5", 230 lbs, ~20% BF, slightly more active than sedentary.

The source you referenced is talking about maintenance calorie levels, not BMR. Consistently eating less than your BMR for very long can lead to a significant metabolism slowdown and is generally not recommended.

Absolutely! I'm sorry, I guess I should have given a little more context for my remarks.

I've been eating Primal-style for some time now. My protein intake has been wavering somewhat between 121g and 172g, but my carb intake has been consistently below 100g. Generally, I've been making up the caloric difference in fats, but that's taken me up to about 1745-1800 calories per day. There are occasional derivations - lapses when I go out to eat, maybe, or when I've put heavy cream into my coffee in the morning, but in general the calories stay really low. I have been hungry, but I chalked that up to my body being thirsty and not being able to tell the difference.

Well, yesterday, Mark's Daily Apple posted another success story, and the lady mentioned about portion control and how important it was for her to do so to get down to where she was. I re-read that section of the Blueprint, and went to the calculator.

My BMR sits pretty steadily at 1859. This means that I've been eating mostly below that. If I spent my days comatose in bed, that'd be just fine, but the fact is that I do martial arts and attempt to follow a very rigorous strengthening and conditioning schedule.

If you apply the proper modifiers to the equation, my maintenance total sits somewhere between 2900 and 3200 calories per day.

I meant my comments in the context of eating less than my BMR, when the reality is that I need to be eating more than the base, and less than the maintenance. At least, I think so?

[Moxie Hart]

I really needed this thread. I need patience.

Supposedly (thanks to some fancy scale thing at a health place here) my BMR is 2600. I've been eating 1800-2200 calos for a week or two, and then working out 5 days a week on top of that. Lifting, 2 hour skate sessions, spin, etc. Nothing is happening.. measurements.. nothing. In fact I think I'll gain this week. :-/ I don't know, I've been stuck for a bit now. But I need to just wait it out I have a feeling. But that is not what I want to do

[Horsedog]

Absolutely! I'm sorry, I guess I should have given a little more context for my remarks.

I've been eating Primal-style for some time now. My protein intake has been wavering somewhat between 121g and 172g, but my carb intake has been consistently below 100g. Generally, I've been making up the caloric difference in fats, but that's taken me up to about 1745-1800 calories per day. There are occasional derivations - lapses when I go out to eat, maybe, or when I've put heavy cream into my coffee in the morning, but in general the calories stay really low. I have been hungry, but I chalked that up to my body being thirsty and not being able to tell the difference.

Well, yesterday, Mark's Daily Apple posted another success story, and the lady mentioned about portion control and how important it was for her to do so to get down to where she was. I re-read that section of the Blueprint, and went to the calculator.

My BMR sits pretty steadily at 1859. This means that I've been eating mostly below that. If I spent my days comatose in bed, that'd be just fine, but the fact is that I do martial arts and attempt to follow a very rigorous strengthening and conditioning schedule.

If you apply the proper modifiers to the equation, my maintenance total sits somewhere between 2900 and 3200 calories per day.

I meant my comments in the context of eating less than my BMR, when the reality is that I need to be eating more than the base, and less than the maintenance. At least, I think so?

Assuming your goal is to lose weight, yes, this is exactly the right strategy

[Kishi]

Assuming your goal is to lose weight, yes, this is exactly the right strategy

SWEET. Now I get to solve the problem of getting an extra 700 calories in the primal way.

This is a good problem to have. Thanks!

[drewd420]

Horse is right, bmr is not the same as calories for mainting weight. If your having problems reaching caloric goals, try nuts, they are caloric powerhouses. As well, olive oil. 80 cals in 2 tbs, put a shot in your shakes/smooties to stack on some cals. Trying to build muscle while loseing fat isnt impossible, but it is harder in terms of simple cutting and bulking. Lean gains websites and threads are a big help.

[drewd420]

I really needed this thread. I need patience.

Supposedly (thanks to some fancy scale thing at a health place here) my BMR is 2600. I've been eating 1800-2200 calos for a week or two, and then working out 5 days a week on top of that. Lifting, 2 hour skate sessions, spin, etc. Nothing is happening.. measurements.. nothing. In fact I think I'll gain this week. :-/ I don't know, I've been stuck for a bit now. But I need to just wait it out I have a feeling. But that is not what I want to do

It sucks, but give it a month... waiting sux, but results may not happen in a week, or even two...dont weigh yourself to often, it can get discouraging... if you are in a caloric defecit after you calculate your cals burned during exercise, it will happen!

[Horsedog]

I really needed this thread. I need patience.

Supposedly (thanks to some fancy scale thing at a health place here) my BMR is 2600. I've been eating 1800-2200 calos for a week or two, and then working out 5 days a week on top of that. Lifting, 2 hour skate sessions, spin, etc. Nothing is happening.. measurements.. nothing. In fact I think I'll gain this week. :-/ I don't know, I've been stuck for a bit now. But I need to just wait it out I have a feeling. But that is not what I want to do

You're doing great! I bet a whoosh is right around the corner for you