LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[SevenofSeven]

The flip flop kind of course!

[Frost of the Gloaming]

damn I was getting my sequin one out

[SevenofSeven]

Sequin away my friend!

[Frost of the Gloaming]

Hoooorrrraaaayyyyyy sequin thong and a balaclava

[Bekah]

Hoooorrrraaaayyyyyy sequin thong and a balaclava

now THATS hot  

[Thrillho]

Baclava makes everything better!

[Artinum]

Even that won't eliminate it, to go back to the tiger, I may be familiar with the tiger, but I still don't want to be in the same room. In the end though, I don't think you'll ever be able to fully get rid of it and forcing people to accept it isn't the right way to do it either.

 

Racism, homophobia, sexism and all those other forms of discrimination are the result of a quirk of human thinking. We're all prone to it, and it takes constant effort to be aware of our own prejudices and impose rationality on them. It's simply this - humans are social creatures, and tend to form groups. We're all in a group now (indeed, a group within a group - LGBTQ and allies within the Nerd Fitness community). But groups can be defined in two ways - by the members of that group, and the inverse: the people excluded from that group. Most social groups fall into the latter category. Christianity, for instance, divides people into believers (members) and non-believers. If you're straight, you aren't in the LGBT. If you're white, you aren't black. Men can't join women's groups. And this is logical - if your women's group allows men to join, it isn't a women's group. It's barely a group any more - just a bunch of random people.

 

So far, so good. The problem comes from another quirk of human nature - group-think. Humans aren't rational thinkers and arrive at more decisions by consensus than they realise. If everyone around them thinks the same way, there is a strong desire to follow the herd. When you join a group of like-minded people, this happens a lot more... and the group begins to think of itself as superior. Everyone in the group thinks the same way, and this reinforces the views of the group. Different views (from outside the group) are clearly wrong as a result - regardless of the facts. This has led to every religious and political debate in history - polarised groups convinced that the others are wrong. And it leads to racism (other races are not in our racial "group", have different cultural ideas and beliefs, and are therefore wrong), homophobia (because we're all sexual deviants), sexism (largely against women, as women have only relatively recently started working, voting, driving, etc, and cultures can take a long time to adjust) and so on.

 

You want to eliminate racism etc? You'll first need to change how humans think. Good luck with that. The best we can hope for is to reduce the damage - or find a new group to discriminate against.

[Machete]

Yeah, it's a completely normal human prejudice in social categorization. We can't help it; we are human beings, and social creatures create exclusive groups in order to survive. We happen to practice the same traditions, wear the same clothes, like the same music, worship the same deity, are attracted to the same gender, etc. People have started fights for much less than that, specifically the example of supporting sports teams. People invest so much time on a group of strangers playing a game that they have absolutely no influence on. They don't even support the players in the team, they support the abstract concept of the team itself (with Cleveland supporters calling LeBron James a "traitor"). And yet they feel connected to anyone who happens to support the same team, and even feel like they are part of the actual team (i.e. "We" won the Superbowl last year.) and consequently would treat supporters of other teams with some degree of hostility. Like Green Street Hooligans, but with less assault. This dynamic has shaped history since the beginning of time. "All you need to know is that there is an "us" and a "them" and you will automatically start doing whatever you can to make sure the "us" comes out on top." (Kathy Benjamin)

 

 

We can't stop people from noticing racial and sexual differences. We shouldn't. But what we can stop is the practice of discrimination and unequal treatment. And the women can start by going for the short Asian guys.

 

[insanity]

We can't stop people from noticing racial and sexual differences. We shouldn't. But what we can stop is the practice of discrimination and unequal treatment.

The first part I agree with, the second part for me should only be discrimination and unequal treatment by the government. Reason being if a group of people want to keep me out of their group for ANY reason, I'm ok with that, whether it's women's gyms that don't like having guys ogling them, or even LGBTQA that just want a place to call their own, go for it... this includes non-government businesses as well.

 

That said, if one group is allowed to form their own "club", then ALL groups should be able to, otherwise you'll just have a chipping away at which groups are protected and which ones aren't, that's where were at now.

 

There's nothing that says anyone has the right to not be offended, and it's not right to force someone to interact with someone else. Trying to force someone to interact with someone else tends to have the opposite effect of what you'd be looking for in that situation.

[SevenofSeven]

I see your point Insanity, however my colleague has taken a volunteer position that will force you to deal with a huge range of people including LGBTQA, drug users, incapacitated alcoholics, old, young, black, white, stinky, rotten, rich, poor, frequent fliers, mentally sick and even the dead, so for him to say to use a derogatory term in reference to a patient of ours who we need to treat with respect and care was somewhat shocking, the motto of our service here in Australia is "For the service of humanity"

If my colleague has such strong opinions of certain groups of people maybe he needs to find another "group" or club. The service I joined does not discriminate against those in our ambulances. It is his choice to be in this service, it is his choice to be homophobic, I choose not to work with such people.

[insanity]

I see your point Insanity, however my colleague has taken a volunteer position that will force you to deal with a huge range of people including LGBTQA, drug users, incapacitated alcoholics, old, young, black, white, stinky, rotten, rich, poor, frequent fliers, mentally sick and even the dead, so for him to say to use a derogatory term in reference to a patient of ours who we need to treat with respect and care was somewhat shocking, the motto of our service here in Australia is "For the service of humanity"

If my colleague has such strong opinions of certain groups of people maybe he needs to find another "group" or club. The service I joined does not discriminate against those in our ambulances. It is his choice to be in this service, it is his choice to be homophobic, I choose not to work with such people.

I would consider your job part of the government aspect in my last post, and yes, if you can't treat everyone equally then that's not the job for you.

[SevenofSeven]

True that!

[Artinum]

I see your point Insanity, however my colleague has taken a volunteer position that will force you to deal with a huge range of people including LGBTQA, drug users, incapacitated alcoholics, old, young, black, white, stinky, rotten, rich, poor, frequent fliers, mentally sick and even the dead, so for him to say to use a derogatory term in reference to a patient of ours who we need to treat with respect and care was somewhat shocking, the motto of our service here in Australia is "For the service of humanity"

If my colleague has such strong opinions of certain groups of people maybe he needs to find another "group" or club. The service I joined does not discriminate against those in our ambulances. It is his choice to be in this service, it is his choice to be homophobic, I choose not to work with such people.

 

I suspect the dead ones won't mind so much.

 

I've found the simplest solution for me is to go the other way. Rather than try to treat all others with the same respect, I no longer treat anyone with any respect beyond a certain baseline. It's surprisingly easy to raise that baseline quite high. So yes, I may think that your beliefs are stupid, that your lifestyle is downright idiotic or that your musical preferences suggest your brain was replaced with a damp sponge. I will still smile politely and hold the door for you.

 

Might be a tricky philosophy to instil in the wider population, though...

[Machete]

The first part I agree with, the second part for me should only be discrimination and unequal treatment by the government. Reason being if a group of people want to keep me out of their group for ANY reason, I'm ok with that, whether it's women's gyms that don't like having guys ogling them, or even LGBTQA that just want a place to call their own, go for it... this includes non-government businesses as well.

 

 

Technically, it could be their own personal businesses that they fire gay people from. I am in no position to dictate what is right and wrong (at least not until I get elected pope). It just sounds kind of fucked-up when someone says "you're fired because you get boners for dudes / are attracted to a certain gender".

 

[Frost of the Gloaming]

maybe we should ban them from being able to watch girl on girl porn, since you know they are homophobic and everything.

[insanity]

 

Technically, it could their own personal businesses that they fire gay people from. I am in no position to dictate what is right and wrong (at least not until I get elected pope). It just sounds kind of fucked-up when someone says "you're fired because you get boners for dudes / are attracted to a certain gender".

I agree, but a company that doesn't serve the government is, in my eyes, a private entity. The owner can run it however he likes, and if I don't like it, then I don't spend my money there.. if enough people don't like it, the company goes out of business.

[Syn]

So I come back to NF after a couple of years, decided to get back into getting healthy after a failed attempt... Go to the forums and lurk a bit to see/remember what people are like here, I don't have any support on that front IRL (nor much knowledge) so I could use the community... Holy hell, a LGBTQ safe space! Awesome, I'm gonna re-introduce myself there! That's another area where I don't have much in the way of supportive people IRL, and I guess it means I won't have to fear negative or ignorant reactions if I wanna talk about my personal life a bit...

 

And then I see that the last two pages here were spent having to justify our fight for equal treatment in society to some dude who's "a little eh" on the idea of other people being different than him despite this having no consequence on his own life whatsoever, and who compares oppressed minorities to dangerous animals who kill people.

 

Yeah, suddenly I feel much less inclined to stick around.

 

Seriously, are there no mods monitoring this thread? Why is it called "safe space" if we have to put up with that kind of stuff here?

 

 

(I know that for a first post after 2 years on a new-ish account, this looks like I'm "troll baiting" or something, but I'm seriously bummed. I expected better from the NF community - but now I realize that it was naive at best.)

[insanity]

So I come back to NF after a couple of years, decided to get back into getting healthy after a failed attempt... Go to the forums and lurk a bit to see/remember what people are like here, I don't have any support on that front IRL (nor much knowledge) so I could use the community... Holy hell, a LGBTQ safe space! Awesome, I'm gonna re-introduce myself there! That's another area where I don't have much in the way of supportive people IRL, and I guess it means I won't have to fear negative or ignorant reactions if I wanna talk about my personal life a bit...

 

And then I see that the last two pages here were spent having to justify our fight for equal treatment in society to some dude who's "a little eh" on the idea of other people being different than him despite this having no consequence on his own life whatsoever, and who compares oppressed minorities to dangerous animals who kill people.

 

Yeah, suddenly I feel much less inclined to stick around.

 

Seriously, are there no mods monitoring this thread? Why is it called "safe space" if we have to put up with that kind of stuff here?

 

 

(I know that for a first post after 2 years on a new-ish account, this looks like I'm "troll baiting" or something, but I'm seriously bummed. I expected better from the NF community - but now I realize that it was naive at best.)

Good to see you don't know me.

1. Just because I'm "eh" to partcipate in it, doesn't mean I won't fight for your right to.

2. There was no comparing anything to dangerous animals whole kill people, merely an example of how evolution could have gotten us where we are today.

3. If that's the interpretation you got of me, then I apologize, but it's completely wrong...

[Artinum]

And then I see that the last two pages here were spent having to justify our fight for equal treatment in society to some dude who's "a little eh" on the idea of other people being different than him despite this having no consequence on his own life whatsoever, and who compares oppressed minorities to dangerous animals who kill people.

 

Yeah, suddenly I feel much less inclined to stick around.

 

You mean this one?

 

People don't like things that are different from them, it could be explained by evolution. Tigers are different, tigers eat you, thereby not liking the Tiger is a good thing... except we can't pick and choose which different things we do and don't like.

 

You're reading too much into this. Insanity is saying that we tend to distrust things that are different because we have evolved it as a survival mechanism. Different things can kill us sometimes because we don't understand them. You don't need to go as far as tigers - there are countries where I could be put to death for saying the wrong thing (such as mentioning my atheism, or looking at another man in the wrong way). If I don't know the culture well enough, I don't necessarily know when I'm doing something wrong.

 

The defence mechanism is flawed. Not all different things are dangerous. Some are actually very beneficial (or at least interesting and enjoyable). Evolution isn't that exact - it's better in survival terms to run away from false positives than to take a risk with false negatives - that is, running away from imaginary tigers is silly, but it's better than not running away from the real tiger you dismiss as imaginary.

[Machete]

I agree, but a company that doesn't serve the government is, in my eyes, a private entity. The owner can run it however he likes, and if I don't like it, then I don't spend my money there.. if enough people don't like it, the company goes out of business.

 

And that is how you stop discrimination.

 

Following that train of thought though, the government can be considered a private corporation owned by the populace. A democratic government, therefore, can be run however the populace sees fit, so long as there is a 50% + 1 vote (democracy is also known as tyranny by the majority). Besides, any organization paying taxes technically serves the government.

[insanity]

And that is how you stop discrimination.

 

Following that train of thought though, the government can be considered a private corporation owned by the populace. A democratic government, therefore, can be run however the populace sees fit, so long as there is a 50% + 1 vote (democracy is also known as tyranny by the majority). Besides, any organization paying taxes technically serves the government.

I can follow your logic, but a private corporation owned by the populace, makes it a public corporation with everyone being able to have access. Since everyone has access, you can't set rules rejecting certain people. :-)

[Machete]

And I, yours. But actually, yes, they can. Tyranny of the majority. Corporations operate under the same basic principles. If they choose to deport and revoke the citizenship of all gays, the populace merely needs a majority vote to legislate that law. I'm trying to avoid reverting back to race, but this is the reason why slavery was tolerated for 300 years - enough people agreed that it was perfectly fine to own human beings (up until Lincoln put an end to it). Owning a slave wasn't necessarily morally right, but it was perfectly legal at the time because the majority of the citizens allowed it. The same with Hitler, Stalin, and the people who stoned a girl to death for adultery because she was raped. Yes, they can run their governments, their corporations, the way they want, as it belongs to them. But should we allow them to?

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

[Bekah]

Actually, yes, they can. Tyranny of the majority. Corporations operate under the same basic principles. If they choose to deport and revoke the citizenship of all gays, the populace merely needs a majority vote to legislate that law. I'm trying to avoid reverting back to race, but this is the reason why slavery was tolerated for 300 years - enough people agreed that it was perfectly fine to own human beings (up until Lincoln put an end to it). Owning a slave wasn't necessarily morally right, but it was perfectly legal at the time because the majority of the citizens allowed it. The same with Hitler, Stalin, and the people who stoned a girl to death for adultery because she was raped. Yes, they can run their governments, their corporations, the way they want, as it belongs to them. But should we allow them to?

 

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

once again I'm impressed by every word you say...I am seeing a pattern

[insanity]

And I, yours. But actually, yes, they can. Tyranny of the majority. Corporations operate under the same basic principles. If they choose to deport and revoke the citizenship of all gays, the populace merely needs a majority vote to legislate that law. I'm trying to avoid reverting back to race, but this is the reason why slavery was tolerated for 300 years - enough people agreed that it was perfectly fine to own human beings (up until Lincoln put an end to it). Owning a slave wasn't necessarily morally right, but it was perfectly legal at the time because the majority of the citizens allowed it. The same with Hitler, Stalin, and the people who stoned a girl to death for adultery because she was raped. Yes, they can run their governments, their corporations, the way they want, as it belongs to them. But should we allow them to?

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Which is why technically, we're not supposed to be a democracy... under a democracy you'd be absolutely right, and we've evolved to that point. I would like to see us head back to a constitutional republic...

 

Regarding slavery, that's a hindsight is 20/20 thing for me, in my opinion to them slaves weren't people, they were property, much like cows are to us today. It's easy to say that they should have never let slavery happen, but it's a different time and place, and you have to look at through their eyes, instead of ours...

 

Regarding other countries, let's straighten ourselves out, we can't police the world, it's breaking us now as it is and we have enough issues here.

[SevenofSeven]

Which all comes back to looking in your own backyard first, which gets closer to home. Why is someone who chooses to have a same sex partner discriminated against in their employment, the service they receive, the home they buy, the places they can frequent, when what they do in their own home is not the business of anyone else? How is their sexual preference going to fuck up their ability to serve, wash dishes, cook a steak, change a spark plug? Without openly coming out and tattooing it on the forehead how do you know who is gay until they tell you?

Yes there are the screaming obvious fairy types and the stereo typical butch dykes, but unless you come out how would someone know? It's not a skin colour, hair colour, eye colour. There are so many layers that a tunnel visioned straight person will not comprehend how many types of queer there are.

And yes we should be looking at Gay Rights through modern eyes, not those coloured by years of suspicion and falsehoods. How many people still believe AIDS is a poofta disease? More than anyone is going to admit.

Anyway end rant.