LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Kevin Mack]

Pretty sure the toaster oven thing is a multi level sales thing where the salesman gets a reward for meeting a sales quota (commonly a toaster oven or a steak knife set). It's from back in the door to door sales era, which is what the Ellen episode was referencing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bekah]

Pretty sure the toaster oven thing is a multi level sales thing where the salesman gets a reward for meeting a sales quota (commonly a toaster oven or a steak knife set). It's from back in the door to door sales era, which is what the Ellen episode was referencing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You werent wrong.

[nightlight]

 

 

I don't believe I did.  The distinction is fairly clear. As I understand it, your contention is that being ignorant - not having to be aware of struggles others deal with -  is an example of privilege at work. My contention is that not *having* the struggle - whether you are or are not aware of it - is privilege.   

 

 

Understood! I see this as a respectful debate about a touchy subject - if it needs to stop I'm OK with that.. 

 

 

no worries. friendly debate is good and thought provoking. just don't want to get to a point where we are slinging insults or getting feathers ruffled. 

 

http://www.afterellen.com/back-in-the-day-coming-out-with-ellen/04/2005/

 

It's from Ellen's coming out episode..."At the conclusion of the episode, Melissa Etheridge gives Susan a toaster oven as her tongue-in-cheek reward for converting another woman to lesbianism."

^^ this. 

[Hit]

This thread should never not be on the front page.

 

 

 

I get the sense that I somehow offended or angered you.

 

nah you didn't, i was just getting a bit hot under the collar and as was pointed out, it was starting to get inappropriate. i'd been dealing with some shit the last month and venting bullshit online as a result. so im sorry too.

 

anyway; yesterday Andrea Gibson did an AMA on reddit. If you don't know who Andrea is, they're a self-described queer poet. That description brought out a few trolls in the thread, a lot of whom asked why Andrea put their sexuality at the forefront and it got me thinking about why so many queer folk wear that on their sleeve. I certainly do (see sig), and even on this board its brought me some ire... But i feel like its such an integral part of who i am as a person and my personal beliefs it would be bizarre to not say it. 

 

So, do you own your queer identity? And if so, do you run into negative or positive reactions from people?

 

Here's some of Andreas work:

 

 

and before anyone says anything

 

 

[–]AndreaGibsonOfficial[S] 65 points

1 day ago

thank you so much for asking... I prefer they/their

[ColoQ]

*BLINK*  *BLINK *  Just woke up from a like 9 day trance preparing, attending and convalescing from the DEFCON convention. Apparently real life doesn't include robots and hackers and Computer Programming based Drinking Contests. 

 

nah you didn't, i was just getting a bit hot under the collar and as was pointed out, it was starting to get inappropriate. i'd been dealing with some shit the last month and venting bullshit online as a result. so im sorry too.

 

Thanks: situation diffused!
Puppy dogs and Rainbows for all!

[GamingPlenty]

i don't really wear it on my sleeve but it's not something i hide. if i were to call myself a queer poet it would be because my poems centre around a queer theme. i don't think it's important enough otherwise.

[Artinum]

I've rather given up on the whole terminology. The pronouns alone are impossible to remember without a cheat sheet. But I've found a simple solution - I just don't care. Be masculine. Be feminine. Be androgynous. Wear whatever you like. You're homoromantically attracted to straight acting androgynous transgender lesbians? Fine with me. I can't have a problem with that, since I can't even get my head around what that means. It could be gibberish, actually.

 

People are crazy. All people. You are, and I am, and everyone else is too. When you accept that, it doesn't really matter what they're attracted to or how they see themselves. If I'm attracted to you, I will gaze upon your form and try not to salivate. If you're attracted to me, I'm flattered and glad I'm doing something right. If we're attracted to each other (hypothetically speaking - I *am* married) then good times might result, though I can't guarantee I'll know what to do with the contents of your underwear.

 

When it comes to labels, categories and pronouns, I'm not interested in describing my orientation or trying to match it up to anyone else's. I'd rather leave it as "I'm Andrew. You're cute. Let's have coffee."

 

Does this work?

[Thrillho]

Sadly, no.  I know a lot of people who will rake you over the coals (metaphorical coals, if real coals cannot be acquired on short notice) for getting a pronoun wrong, because you CLEARLY just want to oppress them. 

 

But your theory sounds good to me.  

 

Also, Colo, did you see my buddy Dekaph play at Defcon?  

[EagleRising]

Artinum, I understand your lack of interest in self-labeling.  I just wanted to add that for every person who is not concerned about, say, their pronouns, there is another for whom pronouns are an integral part of how they identify themselves and wish to be identified by others.  I'm not accusing you of failing to realize that, but I wanted to make sure that was on the table.

 

One of GamingPlenty's points reminded me that my self-identification as an artist can be different from my self-identification as a private individual.  I promise, I'm nowhere near as up myself as that sentence makes it sound that I am!  I do, however, sing as a sideline, in lounges and such.  I often modify the songs I work with to refer romantically to female pronouns if they don't already, but in a venue where my self-identification as gay is relevant, I'll sing some with male pronouns and/or add male-specific songs ("Bill" from the musical "Show Boat," for instance).  I don't conceive of myself as a "queer singer" or a "gay singer," nor have I ever been identified that way that I know of, but I know that I don't want to be identified that way as an artist, although I don't mind being identified as gay in my private life.  

 

I'm not sure I untangled those thoughts well enough to write them down, but there they are anyway!  Does anyone else feel some dichotomy between the way they identify among friends and the way they identify "professionally" (in quotes since I am by no means a professional singer, but y'all will understand what I mean).

[Terinatum]

... it doesn't really matter what they're attracted to or how they see themselves. If I'm attracted to you, I will gaze upon your form and try not to salivate. If you're attracted to me, I'm flattered and glad I'm doing something right. If we're attracted to each other (hypothetically speaking - I *am* married) then good times might result, though I can't guarantee I'll know what to do with the contents of your underwear..."

 

@Artinum -- Ba-ha-ha! Yes, yes, yes!

 

I have been out for a long time and I don't feel the need to advertise, but I tend to do what I like in public. I'm not gonna suppress my desires unless I consider it: too much PDA or too exposing. I won't put sexual orientation on the table unless it gets into the conversation naturally or something is on my mind specifically. I don't shout it from the rooftops. I just act like me on the streets.

 

Other than that, fashion wise - I want to get where I can dress more androgynous. pronoun wise - I try to be cognisant of the changes happening, but I'm working on 49 years of the 'company way' so it's tough to keep it on my mind all the time.

 

So go out and be yourself, whatever that is. That's what civil rights are for. So you can dress, act, and behave in any way that is respectful of the law and other people. We don't need to hide our flamboyance to satisfy another, that's different. That's what haters use to try and keep us hidden from the public. I won't give in to that!

 

Okay, sensitive subject. And probably not just for me. So, in Eminem's words, "Be yourself, man. Be proud of who you are. And don't let anyone tell you, you ain't beautiful." Because you are!

 

Cheers!

[Thrillho]

 

 

[Bekah]

I'm definitely a proponent of the "be whoever makes you happy" plan.

and

I personally deal with it like Teri, I am who I am and my sexuality is part of that no matter if I advertise it or not, so if it is brought up or on my mind, its discussed, if not, fine too. I am not sure I could accurately label myself or understand it if I were labeled, but I will try for those of y'all who find that important

hmmmm....I am an emotionally immature pansexual Aspie in an open relationship with a man, I identify as female, and dress in jeans and a hoodie or yoga pants and man fit tshirts almost exclusively, because I like baggy clothes, with various content irrespective of gender stereotypes (I have a Dodgeball Tshirt and a Rainbow Brite Hoodie and just about everything in between). I like books, yoga, puppies, dreams, margaritas, chakras, learning, and stuff

Labeling complete!

[Artinum]

Sadly, no.  I know a lot of people who will rake you over the coals (metaphorical coals, if real coals cannot be acquired on short notice) for getting a pronoun wrong, because you CLEARLY just want to oppress them.

 

Someone that petty, I'll deliberately get the pronouns wrong just to wind them up. Heh.

[ColoQ]

i don't really wear it on my sleeve but it's not something i hide. if i were to call myself a queer poet it would be because my poems centre around a queer theme. i don't think it's important enough otherwise.

I am becoming more and more interested in wearing it on my sleeve. Primarily to stop the situation of "bisexual invisibility" ...Especially the male bisexual invisibility that is out there.

 

Sadly, no.  I know a lot of people who will rake you over the coals (metaphorical coals, if real coals cannot be acquired on short notice) for getting a pronoun wrong, because you CLEARLY just want to oppress them. 

 

But your theory sounds good to me.  

 

Also, Colo, did you see my buddy Dekaph play at Defcon?

 

I'm rather certain I did. .. I was in the room where they played, at least and had a lot of fun.. or I'm rather certain I did. I may have been drinking, see.

 

The theory sounds good. Until you encounter a Trans person or similar. At Defcon I had a Trans Man volunteering at my "learn to Solder booth", and  he went out of his way to correct folk that he was a HE.

It may not be attempted  oppression on your part: but it is them enforcinga truth about themselves. In the same way that you would be firm about someone calling you by your correct name (i.e. if you are Alex, and I kept calling you John..). 

 

This thread should never not be on the front page.

 

 

nah you didn't, i was just getting a bit hot under the collar and as was pointed out, it was starting to get inappropriate. i'd been dealing with some shit the last month and venting bullshit online as a result. so im sorry too.

 

anyway; yesterday Andrea Gibson did an AMA on reddit. If you don't know who Andrea is, they're a self-described queer poet. That description brought out a few trolls in the thread, a lot of whom asked why Andrea put their sexuality at the forefront and it got me thinking about why so many queer folk wear that on their sleeve. I certainly do (see sig), and even on this board its brought me some ire... But i feel like its such an integral part of who i am as a person and my personal beliefs it would be bizarre to not say it. 

 

So, do you own your queer identity? And if so, do you run into negative or positive reactions from people?

 

Here's some of Andreas work:

 

 

and before anyone says anything

Sorry that bullshit happened to you on these forums. You were right, btw. Husband and drill instructor != the same. 

[Hit]

 

 

Someone that petty, I'll deliberately get the pronouns wrong just to wind them up. Heh.

i just so dont understand this. like really - pronouns are too hard? use the one you'd expect, when/if you get corrected then use the one they tell you. if you stuff up, say sorry and correct yourself. 

 

now if the person is being a dick about it, call them on their shit. but dont sink to the level of casual douchebag just cos "lol pronouns right?". 

 

i think this is the big difference between gender minorities and sexual minorities. a lot of you have said you dont (for lack of a better term) advertise your status, and for the most part you probably dont have to. a trans person, or a gender queer person, or an agender person on the other hand has to present that identity to the world every time they leave the house. 

[SevenofSeven]

Is it fair to say we spend a majority of our youth trying to out run the 'boxes' society wants to put us in, only to turn around as adults and want to label ourselves to fit our own unique box?

I wholly like the idea of "I like you" no label attached.

[AnnieP (respawned)]

I understand the aversion to labels, really I do. For me though, it's not the label I don't like, but all the baggage attached to it. I spent over 30 years not knowing there was a name (label) that fit me. I am quite happy to "label" myself now, knowing that it's not just me. Asexuality is a thing, not me just being strange or... defective.

 

That being said, I am still faced with the stereotypes society as a whole attaches to such a label. I have yet to discover how to own it without having to accept all the crap that comes with it.

[bearwarrior]

Thanks guys and gals, I've loved reading through this forum posting. I didn't realise the subject area was so complicated. For me, I'm a gay english lad, whose sexuality is part of the picture, but not the whole picture. I want to get fit and I play computer games. My problem, I don't know where to start...

[SevenofSeven]

Welcome Bearwarrior, as for starting the fitness thing, check out the amazing threads on the forum, so many nerds doing so many things, lifting, cycling, running, parkour and the diet and weight loss threads. All here for your perusal.

[Bekah]

Thanks guys and gals, I've loved reading through this forum posting. I didn't realise the subject area was so complicated. For me, I'm a gay english lad, whose sexuality is part of the picture, but not the whole picture. I want to get fit and I play computer games. My problem, I don't know where to start...

Level 1 Rebels is the place to be for that (or so I hear...it didn't exist back in my day ) and if you like to think about why you do what you do and get all bendy, the Druids are awesome but whatever guild works for you will welcome you I'm sure too! 

 

and hi  

[Bekah]

i just so dont understand this. like really - pronouns are too hard? use the one you'd expect, when/if you get corrected then use the one they tell you. if you stuff up, say sorry and correct yourself. 

 

now if the person is being a dick about it, call them on their shit. but dont sink to the level of casual douchebag just cos "lol pronouns right?". 

 

i think this is the big difference between gender minorities and sexual minorities. a lot of you have said you dont (for lack of a better term) advertise your status, and for the most part you probably dont have to. a trans person, or a gender queer person, or an agender person on the other hand has to present that identity to the world every time they leave the house. 

You really made me think...I was attempting to explain in words why I felt that it was okay to inject humor into someone else taking themselves and their pronouns so seriously, but if it was an inside joke and they didn't see the humor, then that's being mean, not being funny, and if they did see the attempt at making it humorous and didn't see the humor, because they take their pronouns serious, then its still mean, because well...no one wants to feel like someone is making fun of something that they see as a serious issue....even if to that person it seems like something that shouldn't be, which in reality is judgement of another person's thinking and choices...and something I try to avoid...so boiled down, as a personal choice, doing something like this would be wrong...even though I initially agreed with it.

I also never even considered what you said about being a gender minority, but do they really have to? or is it a choice, and then by making that choice a person ends up dealing with discrimination? I mean I realize that it feels inauthentic to dress as a man, but to identify as a woman, for instance, and that makes that person want to be able to be free to dress as a woman and be accepted, and I think that it should be that way, but it isn't, so isnt it more of a choice to stand up for what should be and take one for the team until being a gender minority is fully accepted in society, or am I entirely wrong? 

[Candace Koller]

I grew up wanting to be a man but that was because of society. It's easier to do certain things if you are a man and some things like Special Forces they don't allow women to do (yet). I never had an issue with my body or anatomy, it was the society I had issue with. Has anyone else experienced this?

I don't know a lot about what it means to be trans, I had always thought it was a societal thing growing up. That they wanted to fit society's mold of what a man or woman should be. As I got older I thought maybe there were some people who wanted the societal definition and some who wanted a different body. I'm really not sure what I think now and I know I can never fully understand without experiencing it. Could anyone trans tell me what it is about gender that they identify with? I imagine this kind of question would have a different answer from different people.

[Hit]

Placeholder post - im gonna come back to this when i dont have to use my phone to write out a proper reply.

Short version - being trans isnt a choice. Transition is about as much a choice as homosexual men choosing to actually have sex with other men. Sure they could not, but that would be denying an integral part of their identity and personhood.

[Hit]

As a side note i really dislike being a spokesperson for trans folk - but there seems to be a pretty major lacking in representation. Anyway, these posts (and similar ones elsewhere on nf) are not inclusive of all trans people and just show the experiences and attitudes common amongst my trans friends.

[ColoQ]

Thanks guys and gals, I've loved reading through this forum posting. I didn't realise the subject area was so complicated. For me, I'm a gay english lad, whose sexuality is part of the picture, but not the whole picture. I want to get fit and I play computer games. My problem, I don't know where to start...

Welcome!  Seriously, NF is a very welcoming community. Any place you land will be a good one. Welcome to the thread Glad to have you.

 

As a side note i really dislike being a spokesperson for trans folk - but there seems to be a pretty major lacking in representation. Anyway, these posts (and similar ones elsewhere on nf) are not inclusive of all trans people and just show the experiences and attitudes common amongst my trans friends.

It is a frustrating reality that we can't point someone with questions to a central Information store that quickly answers their specific nuanced query: or, even if we did, have it be probable that they would follow up on it.  Anyone willing to answer these questions (especially when if you caveat those answers as you just did), is awesome.  IMO More understanding = better.

 

Moreover, I think its natural given the nature of the discussion here that people will have questions, and that the answers will be read / listened to here.