Announcing your goals can be bad

[shiggles]

I just realised that the following could be seen as a bit of an attack of NerdFitness and the way we do things around here. Please note that it is not, although if any information is used to improve people's goals, please go ahead and make use of it.

So I'm not doing the current 6 week challenge as I don't feel the format fits so well with my current goals. But I have done so in the past and have a read of challenge threads to see how things are progressing. And I don't think it's any secret that quite a few people drop out of the challenges. This could be for a huge number of reasons but it's seen by people who stop updating their threads regularly and simply stop persuing their goals. Of course life gets in the way for a lot of people but it seems it happens too often to be just this.

So then I came upon some information about goals (this was actually on reddit so please excuse). Basically it's about how announcing those goals automatically puts you at a disadvantage in terms of achieving them. Basically speaking the act of announcing your awesome goals gives you a sense of satisfaction even though you haven't done anything to actually achieve them yet and this makes you less likely to put in the effort to achieve them because you already feel good. It's referred to as "substitution".

I don't think there's any doubt that the challenges here help quite a lot of people, especially due to the support of the community. But I certainly think to some it may be a bit of a hindrance and they should make more use of the Woot room after they achieve certain goals (that are kept private) rather than advertise their goals.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Here's a TED talk on the topic http://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_keep_your_goals_to_yourself.html

[Avistew]

I have definitely experienced that. When I have long-term goals, I spend too much time thinking about how awesome it will be once I have reached them, and too little time doing anything towards reaching them.

The solution with me is to set an immediate goal. Something to do today. Right now. And completely forget about the long term-goal, because otherwise it will distract me and get in the way of doing the short term one.

But other people get motivated by it, and after I'm done my short-term goal for the day, I reward myself by thinking about how awesome it will be when I reach the long-term one

I think if I had no goals at all, I would be too lost. But that's why you need concrete intermediate steps, and to hold yourself accountable, I think.

[67alecto]

It all comes down to results vs excuses. You can produce one or the other. For some people, publicly stating their goals is a motivation to succeed since they have their pride. For others, not stating their goals removes a level of accountability.

Is it required to publicly state your goals to succeed? Absolutely, 100%...NO. But the idea that by posting them out there for others to see puts you at a disadvantage is just an excuse.

[Lachy]

I hadn't thought about the the affect of the satisfaction based on the anouncement before, but I'm sure it's real and have felt it too. I know that for me personally, the challenges just don't work, so I don't do them. I try to keep my goals to myself, and I just focus on continuing to strive for results.

But as you noted, a lot of people to benefit from the challenges. It's important for people to find what works for them, different strokes and all that.

[Eurydice]

Is it required to publicly state your goals to succeed? Absolutely, 100%...NO. But the idea that by posting them out there for others to see puts you at a disadvantage is just an excuse.

I don't know. I've seen the research indicating that people who make big announcements of their goals are less likely to follow through with them, and I don't think it's likely that the subjects involved in that research knew the hypothesis going in. I'm satisfied with the evidence that it's a real phenomenon for a lot of people.

That's not to say, though, that it can't be used as an excuse once people find out about it, because it totally can, or that it works that way for everyone. I know it has a tendency to work that way for me. I think, though, that both the way the challenges are structured here and the overall "Do or do not, there is no try" zeitgeist of the boards makes it harder (and certainly a lot less fun) not to put in your best effort toward achieving a goal that you've publicly committed yourself to.

[verin]

I think that this is one of those situations where it's best to say to each their own. Some people benefit from having a list of goals and announcing that list. I announce my goals to people who i know will hold me responsible for achieving them. Though for the most part i try to just keep a list that i have to stare at every day. Sure announcing the goals and even writing them down gave me a momentary satisfaction but if i don't start heading towards them pretty soon waking up and seeing that list each day motivates me to get down to business so i can cross items off. In the end though everyone needs to find a system that works for them. We are lucky that NF provides the challenges as a way to keep on track, but it isn't for everyone. I myself tried to keep up with the challenges and while i did eventually complete my goal i lacked the motivation to stay dedicated and write about i

[TurtIe]

I think goals are like dairy. Milk can be very bad if you're lactose intolerant, but it depends on who you are- the same goes with goals.

It all comes down to results vs excuses. You can produce one or the other. For some people, publicly stating their goals is a motivation to succeed since they have their pride. For others, not stating their goals removes a level of accountability.

This is true for me. I don't like to announce my goals and then not go through with them so I keep many short term, mid term and long term goals to keep me accountable.

However, I understand that that people react differently to different circumstances. The announcement alone might be enough to satisfy someone and limit how effectively they go after their goal. That being said, I think that if you ARE a person who does that. If you ARE a person who is satisfied with simply making a goal and not going through with it, then it is up to you to recognise this fault and find a different way to motivate yourself. Otherwise you are just sabotaging yourself in an entirely new way- or in other words- stop drinking that milk, it's bad for you!

[vintageenvy]

For some people, publicly stating their goals is a motivation to succeed since they have their pride.

For better or worse, that's me in a nut shell. When I first started my diet, I told anyone who would listen what I wasn't allowed to eat so that I knew that if I caved, everyone would know I had given in. The beneficial side effect was that I always got a warning when tempting treats were sitting in the office kitchen. There are some goals that only I know about, or maybe I've talked with my husband about it, but it's mostly because they're shooting so high I'm pretty convinced I'm going to fail.

So obviously, accountability is a huge part of my secret to success so I'm going to tend to disagree that it's a hinderance, but I could see how it could backfire with fitness goals especially. Just about everyone I know has said they're going to run a 5k, and then never follow through. It's an interesting side of the story, but I think if you're really set into your goals, you're going to achieve them whether or not you tell anyone about them. It's more a matter of your own personal will power, those who just need that initial high from the announcement were likely to fail either way IMHO.

[67alecto]

I don't know. I've seen the research indicating that people who make big announcements of their goals are less likely to follow through with them, and I don't think it's likely that the subjects involved in that research knew the hypothesis going in. I'm satisfied with the evidence that it's a real phenomenon for a lot of people.

I'll never argue that many people aren't willing to make excuses for any and everything, in terms of that "phenomenon". However, ultimately it is just an excuse.

I think that this is one of those situations where it's best to say to each their own. Some people benefit from having a list of goals and announcing that list. I announce my goals to people who i know will hold me responsible for achieving them. Though for the most part i try to just keep a list that i have to stare at every day. Sure announcing the goals and even writing them down gave me a momentary satisfaction but if i don't start heading towards them pretty soon waking up and seeing that list each day motivates me to get down to business so i can cross items off. In the end though everyone needs to find a system that works for them. We are lucky that NF provides the challenges as a way to keep on track, but it isn't for everyone. I myself tried to keep up with the challenges and while i did eventually complete my goal i lacked the motivation to stay dedicated and write about i

I would argue then, that this is bad goal setting, not that "goals" are bad. If you want to climb Mt. Everest, you can't just say you're going to do it. You need to make a plan to reach it, and it will involve hundreds of different things (if not thousands) along the way. Writing "I'll climb Mt. Everest next year" on a piece of paper isn't going to get you there. And if you give up because you haven't done any work towards it, that is on you, not the fact that you documented the goal.

I think goals are like dairy. Milk can be very bad if you're lactose intolerant, but it depends on who you are- the same goes with goals.

I don't think this is a valid simile at all - goals are never a "bad" thing. It is their execution that fails people Again, it comes down to an excuse. The cliche "fail to plan, plan to fail" is true. Meeting your fitness goals is more a mental challenge then a physical as burnout will come before muscle failure 99% of the time.

It's a fear of accountability to others that gets to people.

[TurtIe]

I don't think this is a valid simile at all - goals are never a "bad" thing. It is their execution that fails people Again, it comes down to an excuse. The cliche "fail to plan, plan to fail" is true. Meeting your fitness goals is more a mental challenge then a physical as burnout will come before muscle failure 99% of the time.

Dairy is never a "bad" thing either. However, if you are lactose intolerant, drinking a gallon of milk isn't going to do you any favours. You'll still get some beneficial protein and calcium but you'll start letting out gas like a bunsen burner. In that same way, announcing your goals can be great because, hey- you've established some goals. However, when simply announcing them becomes enough to make you feel like you've done something worthwhile and from there on you're not motivated to go out and do the work, then it's counter productive to your success.

I don't think any one in this thread means to say that goals themselves are bad. I think the point behind the original message is that some people put themselves at a disadvantage by announcing their goals and feel that is enough, essentially draining themselves of motivation and putting themselves a step towards burning out before even beginning.

So perhaps it would be wise for me to alter my original simile to this:

I think announcing goals is like dairy. Milk can effect you poorly if you're lactose intolerant, but it depends on who you are- the same goes with announcing goals.

Yeah? =)

[azsf]

goals are never a "bad" thing

taken in the context of this site, 3 fitness goals and 1 life goal in 6 weeks might be a bit too much for someone. It's very easy to get excited and put down all these goals and be like "look how awesome im gonna be", and then flake out when shit gets hard. that's not saying goals are bad, that's saying that the way this site encourages a specific approach to goals can put some people at a disadvantage. and lets not forget the grading yourself on how you went with your challenge.

it's no good saying 'its just an excuse', its like the 'do or do not, there is no try'; it's just a bullshit line that sounds cool but is ultimately meaningless. if one approach is demotivating to you and makes you less likely to continue with exercise, that's not an excuse. that's a real concern, and one that anyone who tries to encourage a love of fitness should be worried about. feeling demotivated? nerd fitness goals can be good for you, try it out for a 6 week challenge and see how you go. didn't work? other forms of goal setting/tracking (ie fitocracy) can be good for you, try that out for a little while.

[Waldo]

I find that announcing specific goals tends to prevent me from trying to do too much at once. I'll focus more on those goals and let other things I'd like to do slide to the backburner a bit to be addressed at a later date. Which for me is a good thing, it has really helped to teach me to concentrate my efforts and juggle maintenence with focus. In the long run this has made me more productive and more consistent. It also helps to keep things interesting.

[Kewilson]

I actually didn't declare that I was trying to lose weight until I was a year and two phases through my four-phase plan; I actively hid the fact that I was making gradual, modest changes. People noticed some, "Oh hey, the pop is really starting pile up in the garage", but most of it was missed by everyone around me, even as I gradually dropped 40lbs. I was only really open about it when I was sure it wasn't going to be a tiny amount lost temporarily, as I've heard so many people in my family/social circle enthusiastically claim to be trying to lose weight only to gain back the 5 lbs they lost just as quick as they lost it.

[21katykat01]

I still don't really know whether I find announcing goals beneficial. On the one hand, when I told people I was doing the full MoonWalk (which is a walking marathon, 26.2 miles overnight around the city of Edinburgh), knowing that if I backed out I'd have to tell everyone at work and give them back their sponsorship money was the only thing that got me to that finish line.

On the other hand, I've had many experiences of when I've told people I'm working towards a goal, I find the unsolicited advice unhelpful. Par example, when I told some people I was writing a book, this initially made me even more excited about doing it. When one asked to have a sneak peek of just the first few pages, I thought "Sure" but warned them it was in early stages. Having them really tear it to shreds, accompanied by other people who knew constantly asking how it was going, then made me more demotivated because I was so aware a failure would be so public and that I'd opened myself up to many sources of criticism.

I know fitness goals can be different, but I've the same unwanted advice/butting in throughout my weight loss. While I know this is because they care and are trying to show an interest, when the work is becoming hard and I am plugging away but maybe at 80% or even 70% of my optimal performance, I quickly find myself resenting it all and just wanting to scrap everything. So yeh, maybe I only tracked four days this week, but I'm already feeling shitty about it and don't need people saying "Should you really be eating that?"

I'm not wanting to tangent off with a rant, so essentially my point is thus: I have to think very carefully about whether I'm going to share a goal, and the same rules don't apply for each one. I've had good and bad experiences.

[thatgirljj]

I have seen that. And with some things I agree.

But the challenges here have been helpful for me, and I can pinpoint why. When I keep my goals to myself, they are all or nothing, black or white, no grey areas. When I've done a challenge on NF, I come back at the end and rate myself... how well did I do... and it's never just an A+ or an F. Like right now, I have a challenge to practice yoga every day, I've missed 2 days for no good reason and 1 day for a very good reason (the stomach flu asana). Now in *my mind* that's a total fail... but in reality? I can probably rate myself at least a B+.

It depends though what your strengths and weaknesses are in terms of goal setting, and where you are overall in your life and your fitness. The approach of not stating your goals can be useful for some.

-jj

[thatgirljj]

taken in the context of this site, 3 fitness goals and 1 life goal in 6 weeks might be a bit too much for someone.

I find that to be true for me. I've typically been able to complete 2-3 goals at a decent level of effort, but I've never once been able to do 4.

-jj

[Artinum]

So then I came upon some information about goals (this was actually on reddit so please excuse). Basically it's about how announcing those goals automatically puts you at a disadvantage in terms of achieving them. Basically speaking the act of announcing your awesome goals gives you a sense of satisfaction even though you haven't done anything to actually achieve them yet and this makes you less likely to put in the effort to achieve them because you already feel good. It's referred to as "substitution".

Just my thoughts here, based on exactly zero research, but I wonder if the type of goal makes a difference. Specifically - is it specific and measurable?

"I will get healthier" is not measurable. Anything that works towards this is success - so if you announce this as your goal, just cutting out one bad thing is "enough" for some people. Job done, enthusiasm for more changes gone.

"I will lose weight" is measurable, but not specific. Lose one pound or ten pounds, you win either way. The temptation is then to stop after any progress.

"I will lose ten pounds over the next three weeks" is specific AND measurable. There's no cheating on this - it's a pass or a fail. Announcing this goal can be a strong spur to success. [it should be noted that, if you only lose eight pounds, it's not really a "failure" - but it's not the win you were aiming for either...]

But be careful. "I will lose twenty pounds in the next three weeks" is specific and measurable, but is it achievable? Announcing impossible goals will lose motivation, not gain it.

[67alecto]

I still don't really know whether I find announcing goals beneficial.

And I'll restate that I 100% don't believe that it is necessary. All that matters for a goal is that you are accountable to yourself. If announcing it adds a level of accountability for you that pushes you to succeed, then go for it.

I just take issue that people would make an excuse that they failed in their goals because they announced it.

[jennageah]

I think goals are like dairy.

Haha niiiiice. I find goals motivating, and I think the main ideology behind making goals public in terms of NF is that it opens up your support systems and therefore accountability: if no one knows what you're doing and where you want to be, they can't A. support you when you do well or B. console you when you fail. I think those challenge threads that go abandoned could use more tracking of failure rather than reports of success - if you're just keen to report, that's where goals are useful without ego or the chaos of life getting involved.

Not sure if that made sense, I'm half listening to my English class at the same time...

[Raincloak]

For me, announcing goals isn't the best thing, because it gives me an attack of perfectionism/performance anxiety (a huge problem in my life). Plus people either hassle me with unsolicited advice and requests for updates (coughparentscough), or more likely, fail to support me at all. Either way it's not good for my morale.

in fact, announcing a goal is often the surest way to make certain I *don't* do it. I tend to perform better when my goals are secret. No one is a tougher critic than me, but I'll be five times harder on myself if I think someone is watching. I live in absolute dread of public disapproval, and often it keeps me from doing anything at all.

what I'd really like, of course, is to have someone who keeps me accountable by going along with me, but is positive and doesn't nag. In other words, a training partner. Such people are hard to find though.

[BopGun]

Announcing can be bad, but I'm finding myself glad that I announced what my most immediate fitness goal was within a day or so of joining this place. It's not like me to do that and the knowledge that I put it out there has encouraged me to keep going with work on it.

It has had a detriment not related to NF, though. A couple of people I work with know what I'm doing (because I told them), and they have both been hounding me to join one of the two CrossFit boxes that have opened within 15 miles of me in the last two years. Two specific people I work with come to mind; they both joined one of those boxes a few months ago. From what I've learned about CrossFit, it would be absolutely the wrong kind of choice for me. NF is a bit different, but other than immediate family, I'm keeping my goals a secret from the people I physically interact with.

[Zorch]

It all comes down to results vs excuses. You can produce one or the other. For some people, publicly stating their goals is a motivation to succeed since they have their pride. For others, not stating their goals removes a level of accountability.

Is it required to publicly state your goals to succeed? Absolutely, 100%...NO. But the idea that by posting them out there for others to see puts you at a disadvantage is just an excuse.

I partially disagree. Where the disagreement comes from is this: It really depends on how the goals are stated.

The hard part is, end goals are generally "I want to get to XXX point", be it a bodyfat %, level of strength, speed, doing a backflip, whatever. Often as part of these challenges, there will be a process-oriented goal, namely "I will do Training X, 3 times a week, and Training Y 2 times a week. Sometimes a training program just isn't working and needs to be adjusted - be it insufficient recovery, interference with the schedule life presents, or something else entirely. At that point one can either choose between deviating from what they said they'd do, or sticking with a program that's suboptimal. And then if someone changes up their program, there's the inevitable comments from the peanut gallery - not so much on these forums, but out in the real world.

That's part of why I'm not participating in the current challenge - I'm admittedly experimenting a bit with my diet and training regimen, which means food intake, macronutrient composition, and training volumes are subject to change. Rather than try to tie goals to this, I'm simply doing - the long-term goal is the same, but over the short term I'm currently playing it by ear. Once I re-dial in something that works for me, I'll be more apt to once again state goals.

[aj_rock]

To be fair, a lot of people are just crap-tastic at setting goals in the first place.

In a couple points:

Abstract goals suck.

Goals way beyond your abilities suck.

A LOT of the goal-setting around NF falls prey to those two points ALONE. Never mind the myriad other devices life throws at us.

But yeah. Most of us wouldn't be very good nerds if we weren't over-ambitious in the first place.

Random tangent: KATY KAT! Long time no see! Hope things are going well :]

[BeckyBuckeye]

For me, announcing goals isn't the best thing, because it gives me an attack of perfectionism/performance anxiety (a huge problem in my life).

in fact, announcing a goal is often the surest way to make certain I *don't* do it. I tend to perform better when my goals are secret. No one is a tougher critic than me, but I'll be five times harder on myself if I think someone is watching. I live in absolute dread of public disapproval, and often it keeps me from doing anything at all.

THIS. Seriously, are you me? I tried twice to finish C25K in college. The first, I told my boyfriend right away and stopped about 3 weeks in because I skipped a day and didn't want to redo the week. The second I lasted about 7 weeks because I didn't tell him until a few weeks in. Then life got in the way and I figured out I really didn't like running that much, but the point still stands.

I've found that the challenges here are good for me though because it gives me a group of people that keep me accountable without knowing me IRL so I'm not embarrassed if I screw up. My family and friends don't know my goals and my boyfriend only knows some of them because I've found that I stick better to my goals if I say "I've accomplished this" rather than "I PLAN to accomplish this." It's definitely a personal thing though, obviously find what works best for you.

[zaika]

THIS. Seriously, are you me? I tried twice to finish C25K in college. The first, I told my boyfriend right away and stopped about 3 weeks in because I skipped a day and didn't want to redo the week. The second I lasted about 7 weeks because I didn't tell him until a few weeks in. Then life got in the way and I figured out I really didn't like running that much, but the point still stands.

I've found that the challenges here are good for me though because it gives me a group of people that keep me accountable without knowing me IRL so I'm not embarrassed if I screw up. My family and friends don't know my goals and my boyfriend only knows some of them because I've found that I stick better to my goals if I say "I've accomplished this" rather than "I PLAN to accomplish this." It's definitely a personal thing though, obviously find what works best for you.

What both of you and Raincloak said.

I get major performance anxiety if I announce my goals because then I feel like a failure if I have to modify them (chalk it up to a case of the eyes are bigger than my stomach), and then I fail.

It's much better to keep them under wraps. I'm curious about the challenges though. I'd like to see if they're different.