Knee Issues

[eshriner]

I have damaged my knees numerous times over the years. Now that I am geeting into a workout routine (habit) I am noticing pain a lot more, especially after squats.

 

What are some exercises I can do to strengthen my knees up?

 

Thanks.

[Waldo]

Squats

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

Waldo is right.

[bigm141414]

Proper squats ( below parallel) will help strengthen the knees. 

 

But since you have had issues before first off it might be a good idea to see a physiotherapist or rehab specialist. 

 

That said, terminal knee extensions can help as well as a variety of hamstring and quad stretches. Knee issues can be caused by tight hamstrings and tight calf muscles so be sure to work on stretching/mobilizing/foam rolling those after every workout. 

 

 

Google knee rehab exercises for a whole bunch of info. 

[llsoszynski@gmail.com]

Be really careful with your form on squats. Have you lifted regularly before? If so then disregard, but you should really be careful that your knees aren't going infront of your toes, and your feet are out at a little bit of an angle from your legs. Study youtube videos and such cause squats really are great for your whole body and even knees when you do them correctly. And I second bigm, do parellel, don't wuss out at before parellel

[Georges]

This is the link I like to drop into knee pain threads: http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=4847546

I don't remember who shared it with me, but I think it was someone here at NF.

 

Premise:  Lots of knee pain happens because the knee is such a central part of biomechanics (so the underlying cause can be a hip or foot or a muscle imbalance anywhere in between or a bone length discrepancy or a patella tracking problem or bad shoes or... you get the picture). 

 

Author's Rx:  Stop doing what hurts.  Strengthen the glutes.  Stretch the bits that don't get stretched enough in our 'sit-down society'.  Make sure your biomechanics/form is good.  Then re-introduce what's hurting now, only when you can do it without pain.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

It's okay to go below paralel lon squats right?

[Skywalker]

Go to a physiotherapist first. I had recurring knee pain that really 'wasn't too bad' and would come and go. I felt a bit strange seeing a physio because it wasn't really bad, but she showed my that I had a weak glute, tight IB band and the muscle in the inside of the knee (sorry I can't remember the name) was very weak.

Now I add these specific exercises & stretched into my routine and doubt squat it step up if there is any pain at all.

[Georges]

It's okay to go below paralel lon squats right?

As far as I know (but I'm not an expert), going below parallel with injury or less-than-perfect form is almost guaranteed to make things bad/worse.  As far as I know, going below parallel with good form makes things better/stronger. 

[eshriner]

Thanks for the advice. It does appear to be related to form (or bad form as the case may be). 

 

I stop using weights the last couple of time and this morning I was very conscience of my form. What I realized is that my feet were point out and with was causing my knees to push out. I did 3 sets of body squats today with my feet pointing forward and the was no pain in my knees.

[Georges]

was no pain in my knees.

 

Glad to hear it!  As long as you can do it that way, Waldo's right - squats will strengthen all the muscles that protect your knees from harm!

 

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Your feet should point out about 30 degrees each and your knees should track them, otherwise it is very hard to get proper depth due to hip impingement. You may have had feet pointed out with the knees still going forward, which would indeed put stress on the knees.  make sure your knees track out over your toes.

[eshriner]

Your feet should point out about 30 degrees each and your knees should track them, otherwise it is very hard to get proper depth due to hip impingement. You may have had feet pointed out with the knees still going forward, which would indeed put stress on the knees.  make sure your knees track out over your toes.

 

Then I definitely need to work on form. Did some body-weight squats this morning, paying special attention to knees tracking over my toes. 

[I-Jo]

If you have a friend- have them physically hold your knees- not like HOLD it vice grip IN PLACE hold it- but just make a c shape with their thumb and fingers- place that around the knee (like a horse-shoe) so they are just touching you.

 

It does 2 things

> brings even MORE awareness through a difference sense to that area- often times it's difficult to focus on a body part or muscle because your brain doesn't "recognize" it

> two if you are moving substantially- you have to move their hand.. and that again- raises awareness.

[jdanger]

Squatting while pushing your knees out against a band is a great way to learn this. 

 

Note the guy in this video could do a better job driving his knees out. He's probably using too much band but the setup is the main lesson.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

Your feet should point out about 30 degrees each and your knees should track them, otherwise it is very hard to get proper depth due to hip impingement. You may have had feet pointed out with the knees still going forward, which would indeed put stress on the knees.  make sure your knees track out over your toes.

That's good to know, I thought squats should be done in a toe forward position.  I just tried a BW squat as you suggested and it felt a lot more natural.  Is the same true of toe position for Deadlifts?

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

That's good to know, I thought squats should be done in a toe forward position.  I just tried a BW squat as you suggested and it felt a lot more natural.  Is the same true of toe position for Deadlifts?

 

Yes, but the feet are closer together so that your arms can go vertically down to the bar.

[bigm141414]

That's good to know, I thought squats should be done in a toe forward position.  I just tried a BW squat as you suggested and it felt a lot more natural.  Is the same true of toe position for Deadlifts?

 

 

Yes, but the feet are closer together so that your arms can go vertically down to the bar.

 

 

For DLs, the feet will be angled a bit less than in squats. For squats my toes out is like 20ish degrees, ffor DLs my feet are like 10 degrees. Find what feels natural for you. 

[KingZora]

A good stretch and practice for getting into the right form with your knees tracking over your toes is to do a body weight squat down to the bottom and put your hands together and push your knees out so they track properly over your toes... aka...

 

 

This will help you stretch and give you an idea of what proper form is like.

[Georges]

30 degrees

20ish degrees

I've been under the impression that the angle you set your feet at is less important than making sure that your knees track along that same line. I'm no physiotherapist, but following that rule is the difference between painless and painful for my knees. It keeps the patella where it needs to be. Also, if my knees don't track along that line, I have sometimes felt the tendons going across things they shouldn't (very unpleasant).

 

The exercise with a band and the stretch video are probably a good idea for someone who's knees track too far medially, but keep in mind that if your knees are going too far laterally, that can cause injury/pain/problems, too.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Knees need to go out to avoid hip impingement, since knees go out, feet point out. If you don't do it, you likely won't hit depth.

[Georges]

Knees need to go out to avoid hip impingement, since knees go out, feet point out. If you don't do it, you likely won't hit depth.

So, 30 degrees to protect hips?  Or 30 degrees if needed to get depth?  I've never had problems with hip pain (or hitting depth), so I've never really thought about, but I'd like to keep never having impingement/pain, so I'm wondering if I need to change my stance to stay safe/healthy.

[jdanger]

The feet don't always have to point out and this is more of an individual thing. People with good mobility can squat with toes pointed forward just fine. Generally beginners don't have this sort of mobility so pointing the toes is where they need to start but this isn't always the case.

[Michael_Blacksmith]

I found that super tight muscles as well as tracking contributed to my knee pain issues. I have been following some knee rehab exercises and being conscious of foot angle, and form, drastically helped reduce the pain I was feeling. It still isn't gone all the way but feeling much better. Granted I haven't been pushing myself to max. reps. with my body weight squats, but I read you shouldn't be trying to strengthen the muscle while doing rehab work.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

The feet don't always have to point out and this is more of an individual thing. People with good mobility can squat with toes pointed forward just fine. Generally beginners don't have this sort of mobility so pointing the toes is where they need to start but this isn't always the case.

 

So do knees not go out or do knees just not track toes? I'm not familiar with the effects of knees being out further than toes.

 

edit: Also, it would depend on the type of squat being perofrmed as well. Front squats and even high bar back squats result in a more upright torso and a larger minimum angle between the top of the thighs and trunk, reducing the likelyhood of impingement. Which means that in these cases depth may be able to be hit with toes forward. I think the reason a lot of people need to do toes/knees really pushed out is they low bar it and or have a bit of a gut, both of which make impingement with toes forward and knees not as far out more likely before depth is hit.