What do you believe?

[timtitan]

Yes, same as any type of sex outside of marriage, not any worse or any better.

[Irish Oisin]

Of course being told you're intolerant and hateful for believing homosexuality is a sin doesn't help the situation.

 

 

Yes, same as any type of sex outside of marriage, not any worse or any better.

 

Do you not see the hypocrisy in those two statements?

Your opinion is intolerant and hateful, yet you say that me saying that doesn't help the situation?

Help what situation exactly?

Do you not realise or care that having that attitude hurts people? 

What happened to love thy neighbour?

 

Believing everything you read and telling people they are sinners is the real sin.

[timtitan]

The thing is, you believe that my beliefs are intolerant and hateful, because I believe that homosexual thoughts and acts, just like heterosexual thoughts and acts, are sinful outside of marriage. I do not single people out for any attention, nor do I judge people for their preferences, or go round telling people off for believing things i disagree with. I believe that you are more important than your beliefs, and I believe that compared to God's perfection all have fallen short and require Christ's redeeming sacrifice.

 

Love thy Neighbour means you love them, not that you always agree with them, or endorse their choices.

 

Most Christians I know don't care what your sexual orientation is, they just care about Christ and his love for us, and want for everybody to have a relationship with Christ, because they believe it's the best thing that can ever happen to anyone.

[Irish Oisin]

So, do you believe that LGBQT should be allowed to get married? Because you say that outside of marriage, it's a sin.

[timtitan]

Marriage is between one Man and one Woman, the Bible is pretty clear on that one. As I said, there's a difference between loving the person and loving their choices.

[Irish Oisin]

Sexual preference is not a choice. People are BORN the way they are.

I've tried to be civil about this, but your attitude is homophobic and hateful. The bible says a lot of shit that people ignore but for some strange reason, certain christians have grasped on to this one very easily misunderstood sentence, SENTENCE, and have created a hateful campaign against some wonderful, loving people who just want to exist and live their lives.

So don't hide behind "don't attack my beliefs" because you were taught this attitude. How do I know you were taught? You have explained that the bible taught you. All your doing with this is proving that "love thy neighbour" comes with an asterisk.

 

It's disappointing to see this attitude on such a positive and loving forum that, in the majority, is open and supportive of people of all walks of life. However, I will not be open and supportive of homophobia, which is exactly like racism. They discriminate people based on something they're born with, i.e Their individuality.

[timtitan]

You seem to think I'm about to treat people any differently based on sexual preference. I don't. I don't hate anybody, it annoys me when people attack my beliefs, but I still don't treat people any different. Neither am I hiding behind my beliefs, I stand up for them. You seem to think that I ask for your support, I do not.

Tolerance is based on respect, regardless of differences of belief. How do my beliefs in any way affect how you live your life? I am not trying to force anything on you, merely speaking in support of my own beliefs without expecting anything, and certainly without demanding anything. Do I demand you change your beliefs or life? Do I campaign for forcing anybody to change their beliefs or behaviour?

I do not. Nor does any Christian I know.

[Barbarossa]

You seem to think I'm about to treat people any differently based on sexual preference. I don't. I don't hate anybody, it annoys me when people attack my beliefs, but I still don't treat people any different. Neither am I hiding behind my beliefs, I stand up for them. You seem to think that I ask for your support, I do not.

Tolerance is based on respect, regardless of differences of belief. How do my beliefs in any way affect how you live your life? I am not trying to force anything on you, merely speaking in support of my own beliefs without expecting anything, and certainly without demanding anything. Do I demand you change your beliefs or life? Do I campaign for forcing anybody to change their beliefs or behaviour?

I do not. Nor does any Christian I know.

 

Hello,

 

If I might interject here, I think the bit in bold is one of the sticking points--I grew up in the Bible Belt, in a family that has Pentacostal clergy in it, and at least in that part of the world that is exactly what happens--sometimes it's passive aggression, sometimes it's (personal experience) someone walking into your place of work and when you try to politely brush them off by explaining that you practice a different religion, the missionary getting huffy and saying "Buddha will fail and leave you, but Jesus never will."  Sometimes it's unfortunately when you show up on the radar of Thom Robb and his gang of thugs and truly terrible things happen.

 

While I believe you that in your experience Christians (yourself included) aren't overtly judgmental or evangelical, others here have different experiences.  I've seen gay kids get beaten to within an inch of their lives (quite literally) because "homosexuality is a sin."  I've seen crosses burning on people's property as a way to intimidate them into either changing or leaving.  I've had a group of acquaintances actually ambush me and form a prayer circle around me to try and save my heathen Buddhist soul.  In my experience, the vast majority of Christians I've encountered do demand that you change your beliefs to resemble theirs.  Sometimes very violently.  My own grandfather (a Pentecostal preacher) called me out at my grandmother's funeral while he was doing the service.

 

Some of us just have had very bad experiences with Christianity.  I personally believe that unless you (general "you", directed at Christianity in general and not you in particular) wear all cotton or wool or linen, don't work on Saturdays, don't shave, don't eat rabbit or maintain a vegetable garden, there's not a lot of room for passing judgement on others, especially when the behavior in question has no bearing on your life.  In the Bible, isn't someone reported to have said something along the lines of "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

 

This is a good community with diverse views.  You are entitled to yours, Oisin to his, me to mine.  We are all entitled to disagree, but I think that we should at least consider that individual experiences vary among individuals.

 

Regards,

 

P

[timtitan]

Yeah I think this is kinda one of those bad apples in every group moments. Do you hear me judging you? I ain't. People that preach at you are annoying whatever your beliefs, I've had loads of people telling me I'm a terrible person because I'm a Christian, including an atheist turned pagan friend that was particularly annoying. He seemed to believe I wanted to burn him at the stake mostly because I didn't agree with his beliefs.

The vast majority of Christians would never consider attacking you physically or emotionally for your beliefs. Taking seriously Christ's urging to flee some sin (like hatred in ones heart against anyone, which Christ said was just as sinful as murder), and that to Love your neighbour is an important calling. Is somebody describing themselves as a Christian insulting you or abusing you for any reason? That's not exactly loving behaviour now is it, judge by their fruits please, not by their labels.

[Irish Oisin]

judge by their fruits please, not by their labels.

 

Ya see, THIS is my problem, you say that BUT you say homosexuality is a sin. Your belief that homosexuality is a sin IS judging by someones label. It's contradictory.

[Barbarossa]

Yeah I think this is kinda one of those bad apples in every group moments. Do you hear me judging you? I ain't. People that preach at you are annoying whatever your beliefs, I've had loads of people telling me I'm a terrible person because I'm a Christian, including an atheist turned pagan friend that was particularly annoying. He seemed to believe I wanted to burn him at the stake mostly because I didn't agree with his beliefs.

The vast majority of Christians would never consider attacking you physically or emotionally for your beliefs. Taking seriously Christ's urging to flee some sin (like hatred in ones heart against anyone, which Christ said was just as sinful as murder), and that to Love your neighbour is an important calling. Is somebody describing themselves as a Christian insulting you or abusing you for any reason? That's not exactly loving behaviour now is it, judge by their fruits please, not by their labels.

 

To an extent I agree, but again, in my personal experience it's more like a few good apples in a bag of rotten ones.  It is indeed bothersome when people preach at you, and I know that I've been guilty of preaching at others on more than one occasion.  It's bothersome whether the person is Buddhist or Witness or Mormon or Hare Krishna or any other group.  But your friend is a point--why would he think that you wanted him dead unless there was some experience that, to him, served as a foundation to that belief?  And I'm sorry that others have called you a terrible person just because of your beliefs--it isn't warranted and is just as bad as judging someone based on the color of their skin or sexual orientation.

 

People are people, and I believe that everyone is doing the best that they can.  It just seems to me that where I grew up, when I grew up, (primarily Protestant) Christians (clergy included) very often felt that others were worthy of scorn, judgement, violence, or at least dismissal because as a Christian (or Baptist, or Methodist, et al) they had special access to the Truth that no one else had, and (another thing overheard personally) "evolution isn't in the Bible, so it isn't true.  The Devil put them [sic] dinosaur bones there to test our faith."  In the world that I was raised in, being a Christian mean that you had everything you needed.  "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has" was taken very literally.  As a scientist, I'm sure you've been exposed to people who start at their preferred conclusion and work backwards to make sure that all of the evidence points to that particular conclusion.  I'm only a physics student at the moment, and it bothers me.  I can only imagine what it's like in the field.

 

Again, I'm not saying anything against you, or the non-judgmental Christians that you seem to associate with.  I'm glad that there are Christians out there who aren't like those that I was raised around, and that there are people who aren't subjected to the things I was.  I'm only relaying my personal experiences in an attempt to bridge a gap that I felt was becoming rather wide and hostile in the community.

 

Cheers,

 

P

[timtitan]

It just seems to me that where I grew up, when I grew up, (primarily Protestant) Christians (clergy included) very often felt that others were worthy of scorn, judgement, violence, or at least dismissal because as a Christian (or Baptist, or Methodist, et al) they had special access to the Truth that no one else had, and (another thing overheard personally) "evolution isn't in the Bible, so it isn't true.  The Devil put them [sic] dinosaur bones there to test our faith."  In the world that I was raised in, being a Christian mean that you had everything you needed.  "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has" was taken very literally.  As a scientist, I'm sure you've been exposed to people who start at their preferred conclusion and work backwards to make sure that all of the evidence points to that particular conclusion.  I'm only a physics student at the moment, and it bothers me.  I can only imagine what it's like in the field.

Yeah, those guys, those guys miss the point by light years.

Paul wrote that Christians should be able to rationally explain the hope that they have. That reason is vital to healthy faith. I understand why they say that idiocy about dinosaur bones, but as I may have suggested earlier in this thread, its not required, and it suggests the Devil has far more power than he actually has.

As a Christian I believe that in Christ I do have everything I need for a good and happy life, doesn't mean I automatically understand all of Creation (Especially Quantum Physics), or even Christ himself.

My Atheist turned Pagan friend was more of the "I read a book on wicca and now I know that you personally are persecuting me, because you're a Christian and that's their response to the truth" variety or something like that.

Do I think Wicca or any other religion talking about spirits and such is a good idea? Nope, else I'd be a pagan. I believe in Liberty and Tolerance as the only good way to go about this earth. You are free to pursue happiness in your own way as long as it doesn't restrict my own pursuit of same.

[Guest asdf]

I am Quaker, and very much shaped by quaker values and beliefs, but I am not religious. I would consider myself agnostic, but the nice thing about the quaker community is that people respect people who have different beliefs for the most part, unless they have beliefs that go against fundamental quaker beliefs, like say, supporting war and violence or something. You can quite easily be an atheist and be welcomed into the community with open arms. It's been a good religion to grow up in, and even though I don't attend quaker meeting that often I have no aversion to it.

[Irish Oisin]

 I believe in Liberty and Tolerance as the only good way to go about this earth. You are free to pursue happiness in your own way as long as it doesn't restrict my own pursuit of same.

 

If you believe in this, then why do you think homosexuality is a sin? That's intolerant. Saying that it's a sin restricts gay peoples pursuit of happiness, how can you not see this?

 

I have no problem with religions once they don't interfere or persecute, so I'm not attacking your religion, I'm attacking the homophobia here. You say that you don't attack people about it, but holding that belief is a cancer in society, that belief can, and often does lead to much worse than just thinking something.

 

We won't agree on it. But look, while you're believing that one part of the bible, live the rest of your life to the letter of the bible and see how VASTLY different your life will be. Holding that belief is picking and choosing what to believe from the bible and using it to feel superior to others.

 

Gay rights today is what race rights were last century. There is NO difference.

[SSquirrel]

Some of us just have had very bad experiences with Christianity.  I personally believe that unless you (general "you", directed at Christianity in general and not you in particular) wear all cotton or wool or linen, don't work on Saturdays, don't shave, don't eat rabbit or maintain a vegetable garden, there's not a lot of room for passing judgement on others, especially when the behavior in question has no bearing on your life.  In the Bible, isn't someone reported to have said something along the lines of "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

 

 

 

Heck, if you read Jeremiah 10, it looks like decorating Christmas trees is technically against the Bible, so clearly picking and choosing is the only way anyone gets by.

 

I grew up in Kentucky and there was always a lot of people trying to evangelize and tell you you were going to hell if you didn't believe, etc.  The new pope tells people that discrimination is awful and we need to accept everyone as they are, but is also quick to say things like this quote about marriage equality:

 

 

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.â€

 

 

More of those here: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

 

Also, to show more wonderful examples of the kind of Christians Perry and I apparently grew up around, http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/pope-francis-named-motivation-gay-bashing-argentina290313

 

Wonderful quotes like  â€˜A kid told me we had to leave because we were in a Catholic household, and we couldn’t have Argentine faggots when there’s an Argentine Pope'

 

 

IMO, everything Jesus talks about (which is the same from several other religions that pre-date Christianity b/c hey, they had to borow it all from somewhere), can be summed up in one sentence.  "Don't be an asshole".  Look at that sentence and read the 10 commandments.  It covers them all.  "Don't be an asshat" was my guild's only rule in World of Warcraft.  Anton LaVey's Church of Satan (which has no actual Satan worship, Satan was just chosen as a figurehead and bogeyman basically) can be summed up in one sentence as well: "Be selfish".  Some religions have very specific restrictions.  Jews have no pork, no tattoos if you want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, etc.  Muslims it's no pork, no woman touching a man not of her own family, etc.  Sikhs can't cut their hair. 

 

Everything else is just extraneous.  If you are listening to what Jesus said and love one another, then you accept them for what they are.  Accepting them fully means they are equal, which would mean gay marriage should be legal.  of course, marriage is not controlled by the church, it is a union covered by the government.  There is no national religion (thank any and every possible god!) here, so why should what the Bible says enter into the question.  If you don't weant to be in a gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex and you'll be ok.  Hint, it's not FOR you. 

 

 

 

We won't agree on it. But look, while you're believing that one part of the bible, live the rest of your life to the letter of the bible and see how VASTLY different your life will be. Holding that belief is picking and choosing what to believe from the bible and using it to feel superior to others.

 

Gay rights today is what race rights were last century. There is NO difference.

 

http://www.today.com/news/living-good-bible-woman-was-complicated-says-author-1C6604411

 

 

She did.  Interesting read really.  I saw that las tyear when the article was published.

 

Completely agree w/the last sentence.

[Irish Oisin]

Wow, having read the article I can't tell if she's being sarcastic. Slept outside and wouldn't touch her husband while on her period. Wow, bible? Really??

 

I'm so grateful to my family for encouraging me to question things rather than told me to follow the crowd at the sacrifice of all reason and logic...oh, and compassion with no strings attached, they taught me that. Something the bible seemingly doesn't teach, compassion as long as you're straight and christian.

 

Jim Jeffries made a point that the bible should be a blank book with one sentence in the middle of it

"Try not to be a cunt"

[SSquirrel]

No as far as I could tell the article about her year living as closely to the bible as she could wasn't sarcasm. 

 

My friends and I noticed something very odd.  In middle and high school I went to youth group at my mom's church (First Christian in Maysville KY, yes it's Disciples of Christ, no it has no charismatics and snake charmers heh...apparently many DOC churches do) and teh father of one of my best friends was the minister.  My circle of close friends were all at that youth group, we all played Dungeons and Dragons and to a man, nearly 20 years later, every single one of us is atheist or agnostic. 

 

Why?  Adam's dad (the minister) taught us to question things and don't just accept an answer b/c it is in a book.  So we did and we all separately found Christianity wanting.  I took classes in eastern religions in college.  I have a friend who is a medium.  I have had friends who were part of pretty much every major and a lot of minor religions.  I eventually decided that none of it was for me.  My wife is pagan, as are many of our friends, but we still have friends and family memebrs who strongly identify as Christian.  We don't have to agree and we usually don't, but that's ok.

 

It isn't the agnostics, atheists or Buddhists who are trying to limit women's reproductive rights or keep the institution of marriage a male/female thing only.  Heck, think of the benefits to the economy.  If gay marriage we re passed at a federal level, all 50 states could have a huge increase in weddings and all related costs there, not to mention divorce attorneys

 

 

Oh and one last interesting article.  One of my friends at work was really annoyed a couple weeks back when so many were changing their profile picture on FB in favor of marriage equality.  His stance was that it wouldnt' change anything.  Here is an article that says otherwise.  So having an opinion and making it known can affect others around you in what beliefs they choose to have.

 

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/psysociety/2013/03/28/marriage-equality-and-social-proof/

 

At the same time, changing your profile picture to show support for Boston doesn't do very much for the victims besides make them feel good.  If you want to make a real difference with them or victims of the next huge earthquake or hurricane, donate your time or money to assist them.

[Irish Oisin]

That's very interesting, and the theory works both ways, if everyone around you says that something is wrong, you'll think it too.

 

Ireland is currently in the midst of a case to legalise abortion and at the same time, gay marriage is popping up. I think we should allow both because of a simple rule I have:

Does it affect me?

No.

Then fuck it, let them do what they want.

[Artinum]

Marriage is between one Man and one Woman, the Bible is pretty clear on that one. As I said, there's a difference between loving the person and loving their choices.

 

Now here's the thing. I'm not gay by choice. The only choice I had in the matter was to stop denying it. Your God has apparently made this happen, or at least allowed it, which is a curious contradiction - on the one hand, he's given me sexual urges for other men. On the other hand, he's said such urges are forbidden. This marks God as something of a psychotic lunatic, which admittedly does go along with his entrapment of Adam and Eve, the drowning of the entire planet and his bizarrely schizoid relationship with Satan.

 

Or you could consider that just maybe those parts of God's word were made up by human beings who thought that the whole sex thing was icky. Homosexuality has been around a long time and even occurs in a lot of animal species - which, come to think of it, don't get married either.

[timtitan]

No, Christianity is not about a bunch of laws but the impossibility of meeting a perfect standard, and the replacement of the law with Christ's sacrifice and grace.

Also liberty does not mean nobody is allowed to offend you, same with tolerance. Liberty means you get to pursue happiness in your own way, and while I may comment if I want to, I'm not going to try and stop you. Tolerance means I don't call you names based on your beliefs, and that I relate to you based on your character, not your beliefs.

If your happiness is based on all around you endorsing your choices and beliefs then you are in for a rocky road.

Fairly obviously I disagree with your characterisation of Gay Rights, from my own rather libertarian perspective, it always sounds like trying to use the government to enforce your standards and wishes on individuals regardless of their beliefs. Not a particularly tolerant act.

[SSquirrel]

No, Christianity is not about a bunch of laws but the impossibility of meeting a perfect standard, and the replacement of the law with Christ's sacrifice and grace.

 

 

So what are the 10 commandments then?  I've actually met some Christians who say it's all the Old Testamanet and Jesus was a bit light on everyone.  Some who try and defend the back and forth apparent madness of God in the Old Testament by denying most of the Old and saying to just stick to the New Testament.  Oh and the 10 Commandments of course   Again with the picking and choosing.

 

Fairly obviously I disagree with your characterisation of Gay Rights, from my own rather libertarian perspective, it always sounds like trying to use the government to enforce your standards and wishes on individuals regardless of their beliefs. Not a particularly tolerant act.

 

So Christians trying to force women to not be able to have abortions isn't imposing their standards and wishes on others?  Unless you're gay, allowing gay marriage doesn't force anything on you.  Seriously, how does it affect your life in any way?  Libertarians typically look at things and if it isn't affecting other people, let it slide.  So why doesn't this fit that test?  It does, you are allowing your religion to interfere with your thought pattern here. 

 

Having people who believe in a particular religion put on trial and killed (Salem witch trials) or blackballing and/or imprisoning those who believe in a particular political method (McCarthy Hearings) isn't exactly tolerant.  Ceasing to discriminate against an entire group of people (the gay ones) is kind of the meaning of tolerance.

[RisenPhoenix]

So Christians trying to force women to not be able to have abortions isn't imposing their standards and wishes on others?  Unless you're gay, allowing gay marriage doesn't force anything on you.  Seriously, how does it affect your life in any way?  Libertarians typically look at things and if it isn't affecting other people, let it slide.  So why doesn't this fit that test?  It does, you are allowing your religion to interfere with your thought pattern here.

 

I've been mostly keeping out, but this.  A lot of this.  The only argument a Libertarian would have against gay marriage legality is the same argument they would have for any marriage - the government should not have anything to do with a contract between two willing, mentally stable adults.  But given that people already get married through the government, it's a really poor excuse at this point for a Libertarian to deny liberty to a minority group, unless that person is willing to not get married in any relationship.

 

Also, I call bull on the bible definition of one man, one woman.  Jacob has 12 wives, David had his harem, and hell, even claims that no one should get married.  While there are stories of married couples, no way does it ever state that ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN is the way.  The bible has a lot of things.  Very easy to quote mine and toss out the rest that doesn't agree with what you think - which is what this entire conversation has been about.

[Irish Oisin]

Fairly obviously I disagree with your characterisation of Gay Rights, from my own rather libertarian perspective, it always sounds like trying to use the government to enforce your standards and wishes on individuals regardless of their beliefs. Not a particularly tolerant act.

 

I don't even like how the word tolerance is used when it comes to LGBQT people, as if there's something to tolerate. I tolerate annoying sounds in work because I have to. LGBQT people should be accepted, not "tolerated" But that's just a semantic aside, kind of with myself. I'm quoting this because you're bringing "the government" into it. What government exactly? We live in different countries. Different governments. Besides, when it comes to social rights, the governments of most countries act on pressure from the majority of the people in their countries. Gay rights are a movement now because most people are demanding them. You can't just blame "the government" on that one. New Zealand just legalised gay marriage, and upon dong so, parliament broke into a traditional Maori song of love, I recommend you ALL look it up, it's really quite beautiful.

 

Also, I call bull on the bible definition of one man, one woman.  Jacob has 12 wives, David had his harem, and hell, even claims that no one should get married.  While there are stories of married couples, no way does it ever state that ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN is the way.  The bible has a lot of things.  Very easy to quote mine and toss out the rest that doesn't agree with what you think - which is what this entire conversation has been about.

 

Oh man, so much of THIS! It's so true, the bible doesn't even have any consistency on this issue.

 

Let's remove the bible from this argument. Then what does the "gay people can't marry" side have? Nada! Zip! Zilch! 

[SSquirrel]

Probably the most common verses people will cite involve one of these 2 links for the whole man+woman thing. 

 

 

1 Corinthians 7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=NIV
Matt 19:5  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A5&version=NIV

 

The key verse people will probably point to about homosexuality is Leviticus 20:13, but if you look at all of Leviticus, so much of it is already commonly accepted practice in the world including divorce and people aren't being exiled for sex during a period.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020&version=NIV

 

 

 

 

Not saying I agree w/these verses in the least, but people who do will likely try and toss them back as proof.  Once again, to accept them as proof, you have to discard other things like Divorce, which Jesus also said was a big no-no.   Pick and choose, pick and choose.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:2-12&version=NIV

[bigm141414]

We're getting off topic.