Obesity is now a Disease...

[Bolson32]

I don't think anyone wakes up one morning and says "I want to be fat" sometimes we just get so caught up in everything else we are doing in life - school, kids, family, house, job, etc that people just lose track of what is going on. It isn't a conscious choice, but it is a problem with diet and lifestyle that has an end result of being obese. That is part of why the whole lifestyle change that people go through involves stepping back and prioritizing.

 

I had a bit about apathy in there, but took it out. I don't think it's a conscious choice, I certainly didn't make one. Lack of knowledge and apathy are certainly big drivers of it though. As well as the whole life thing getting in the way. I'm just saying, an ounce of knowledge and effort can go a VERY long way. 

 

 

That's great and all, but for insurance purposes BMI is still used. I'm not a big believer in the whole fat acceptance movement, but there is absolutely no doubt there are a lot of really in shape healthy overweight people and a lot of normal/underweight people that are not.

If we are talking a major structural issue in society (a basic mandated living expense), using BMI to scale costs is totally unacceptable IMHO.

I would be fine if there was a way to scale costs on fitness related risk, but the fact is any reasonable measurement would be outrageously expensive especially given that any reasonable measurement includes multiple measurements over time.

 

I agree with you. I never said BMI was a suitable means of measurement.

 

My favorite example is Ray Lewis, who at 6'1" and 240 lb has a BMI of about 32 (2 points into obese).

 

 

While I agree that BMI is not a suitable measurement, see above. This argument is irrelevant. We're talking the general public here, you're using the exception rather than the rule to prove a point. Using this argument is like saying you don't need a good QB to win the super bowl and pointing at Trent Dilfer.

[Thrillho]

So why didn't you just drop the two pounds?

... I did.  I lost a LOT of weight.  Because I had to.  But when I had to go in to renegotiate the terms of my insurance policy, I weighed 302.  When I got below 300, they suddenly realized that I was insurable.  

[Bolson32]

... I did.  I lost a LOT of weight.  Because I had to.  But when I had to go in to renegotiate the terms of my insurance policy, I weighed 302.  When I got below 300, they suddenly realized that I was insurable.  

 

I honestly mean no offense by this, but would you not agree that you're less of an insurance liability at your current state than at over 300lbs?

[Thrillho]

Absolutely.  I would be even less of an insurance liability if I lost ANOTHER 50 lbs.  Does that mean that 250 lbs should be the cutoff? 

 

A 299 lb person who drinks, smokes and eats KFC every day would be insurable, while my 302 lb, 6'4", non-drinking, non-smoking, healthy-eating former competitive martial artist would not be insurable.  There's dozens of variables to look at, and the only one that is a flat-out yes or no is "mass". 

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

While I agree that BMI is not a suitable measurement, see above. This argument is irrelevant. We're talking the general public here, you're using the exception rather than the rule to prove a point. Using this argument is like saying you don't need a good QB to win the super bowl and pointing at Trent Dilfer.

 

The real point is that BMI was developed to look at population statistics and is unfair to use when evaluating an individual enough of the time that it shouldn't be used. The cutoff for a 6'1" man from "healthy" to "overweight" is about 190 lb, the only guys I know at 6'1" that are 190 lb are either very slenderly built or extremely in shape. There are much better things out there to use, like the navy or ymca formulas that return much better results and are more applicable.

[bigm141414]

The real point is that BMI was developed to look at population statistics and is unfair to use when evaluating an individual enough of the time that it shouldn't be used. The cutoff for a 6'1" man from "healthy" to "overweight" is about 190 lb, the only guys I know at 6'1" that are 190 lb are either very slenderly built or extremely in shape. There are much better things out there to use, like the navy or ymca formulas that return much better results and are more applicable.

 

 

I got down to 192 last summer. Picture that....You can't unsee that image now. And I was normal by BMI standards. 

 

But yeah BMI should be refined for medical purposes since they are starting to push it as a disease. 

[I-Jo]

BMI is rubbish.

 

we all know that.

 

Well- except the people who make up charts and stuff and determine things based on it.  Otherwise anyone else who knows anything about BMI/Fit people know it's rubbish.

 

That being said...

 

How can you NOT realize what is going on?  It's not rocket science.  You'r clothes don't fit- sitting in cars gets uncomfortable- you don't want to fly you can't go on rides???

You may not wake up one day and say I want to be fat- but it's not like you don't know.

 

It may be a symptom of other diseases (depression for sure) but it is not a disease.  

[Bolson32]

Absolutely.  I would be even less of an insurance liability if I lost ANOTHER 50 lbs.  Does that mean that 250 lbs should be the cutoff? 

 

A 299 lb person who drinks, smokes and eats KFC every day would be insurable, while my 302 lb, 6'4", non-drinking, non-smoking, healthy-eating former competitive martial artist would not be insurable.  There's dozens of variables to look at, and the only one that is a flat-out yes or no is "mass". 

 

i certainly don't disagree with that, but there's gotta be a cutoff somewhere. Bottom line, with something like your insurance issue, or this BMI argument that everyone seems to be on the same side of but is arguing about anyway.....You're never going to have something that's all inclusive and you have to draw the line somewhere. To me, there's very few "healthy" 300lb men.

[Thrillho]

Exactly.  Which is why I went and got a proper physical, with blood work and urine tests and whatnot, which showed that I had none of the problems they were concerned about.  And they still said no.  The arbitrary cutoff (given to me by someone who was FAR more obese than me, and who had life insurance) was irritating, since they're clearly not playing by their own rules when they will say no to 300+ lb healthy people, and allow 300- lb unhealthy people.  

[Waldo]

Will this discussion has sort of drifted, weight/obesity is a potential confounding factor implimenting the ACA. Defining obesity as a disease easily makes that problem go away, at least for the time being.

Obesity is the physical manifestation of a mental illness, an eating disorder.

 

Cutler is Obese!!

....and he sucks at throwing footballs.

[marionette]

 

That being said...

 

How can you NOT realize what is going on?  It's not rocket science.  You'r clothes don't fit- sitting in cars gets uncomfortable- you don't want to fly you can't go on rides???

You may not wake up one day and say I want to be fat- but it's not like you don't know.

 

If it happened all at once it would be one thing, but gaining say 10lbs over a year? Then again the next? It can creep up on you and in general people suck at being self aware. Add in the (for women anyways) stupid way clothes are sized and how it is different for every brand, every cut, every season it becomes very easy to just push it aside or blame something else. Sometimes people just don't quite clue in because they still see their younger, more slender self in their minds eye when if they were to really look in the mirror they would see something very different. For some people it takes someone (like a medical professional) saying "Hey, this isn't healthy. It's costing you 20 years of your life." 

 

While obesity isn't a disease it does, for many people, require medical attention and treatment. If the only way to get it that is to bend the rules a bit to call it a disease so be it.

[Guest Dirty Deads]

....and he sucks at throwing footballs.

 

 

 

LOL Yeah, I hate that a guy who can't play his chosen sport is more well known than a guy at the top of his even though they have the same name.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

So I think the reason it drifted is we al agree it's symptom, not a disease. It's a symptom of an eating disorder that causes overeating, or a society that tells children they need to finish everything on their plate, or a society based around processed carbs so in order to feel full on the standard diet, one ends up eating too much, or in the physically inactive an issue with blood sugar/diabetes/insulin response issues. It could be all of the above or just one for any individual person.

 

What we're now arguing about is the definition of what obese is, and I think that's valid if it's going to be a desease [disease] and possibly affect insurance rates. Remember, they can't nail you for preexisting conditions, but I imagine that they can raise your rates if you get fatter and refuse to treat "the disease".

[Thrillho]

I am guilty of getting off-track there.  My apologies.

[I-Jo]

If it happened all at once it would be one thing, but gaining say 10lbs over a year? Then again the next? It can creep up on you and in general people suck at being self aware. Add in the (for women anyways) stupid way clothes are sized and how it is different for every brand, every cut, every season it becomes very easy to just push it aside or blame something else. Sometimes people just don't quite clue in because they still see their younger, more slender self in their minds eye when if they were to really look in the mirror they would see something very different. For some people it takes someone (like a medical professional) saying "Hey, this isn't healthy. It's costing you 20 years of your life." 

 

While obesity isn't a disease it does, for many people, require medical attention and treatment. If the only way to get it that is to bend the rules a bit to call it a disease so be it.

yeah I"m not buying that- if you are 300 lbs- you know it.

 

10 lbs here and 10 lbs there adds up to a lot of extra clothes.  For almost every 10-15 lbs you gain you are looking at buying new clothes- that's several hundred dollars a year.  And the food itself- there are financial implications to being that overweight- you are faced with it EVERY day. 

 

 

1. a disordered or abnormal condition of an organ or other part of an organism resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, nutritional deficiency, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness.

 

 

 

Choosing to over eat every time may be a side effect of being depressed- but it's not like you don't know about it.  

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

10 lbs here and 10 lbs there adds up to a lot of extra clothes.  For almost every 10-15 lbs you gain you are looking at buying new clothes- that's several hundred dollars a year.  And the food itself- there are financial implications to being that overweight- you are faced with it EVERY day. 

 

Totally disagree. I didn't realize I was obese until I was closing in on probably about 35-40% bodyfat. I knew I was overweight, but not unhealthily so.

[Waldo]

 

Totally disagree. I didn't realize I was obese until I was closing in on probably about 35-40% bodyfat. I knew I was overweight, but not unhealthily so.

Womens and mens clothes are pretty different on that. I knew I was overweight, but when I stepped on the scale (which was the final kick that got me to change) I was 40! lbs heavier than I thought I was.

In losing 75 lbs (now probably closer to 85 lbs fat total), I dropped from size 40 pants to size 36, a drop of 2 sizes, and from size XXL shirts to size XL, a drop of one size. Nowadays though I'm on the fringe of fitting in 34 pants and can wear L shirts that are meant to be tight with a V cut (tight chest+loose belly = fail). Women can drop several sizes, but us bigger dudes might only drop a couple sizes even losing a huge amount of weight.

[Guest Dirty Deads]

I was considered over weight at 6 months old. In school from about 3rd grade on I averaged about 30 lbs. a year. Obviously, being in school I got new school clothes each year so I was allowed to keep growing. At some point, eating and being unhealthy becomes a habit. My family could have prevented it, sure, but they couldn't see me growing a centimeter at a time. I guess it's hard for people who tend toward naturally skinny to comprehend. My mom was 5'6" and 116 forever. Since we ate the same food, she thought nothing of it.

[marionette]

yeah I"m not buying that- if you are 300 lbs- you know it.

 

10 lbs here and 10 lbs there adds up to a lot of extra clothes.  For almost every 10-15 lbs you gain you are looking at buying new clothes- that's several hundred dollars a year.  And the food itself- there are financial implications to being that overweight- you are faced with it EVERY day. 

 

 

Choosing to over eat every time may be a side effect of being depressed- but it's not like you don't know about it.  

 

At my height (admittedly short) the bmi obesity category starts at 160lbs. 160lbs isn't really all that heavy. Not everyone who is obese is 300+ lbs, and not all of the people who are obese but don't look it are ripped body builders, a lot of them just look like normal people that need to lose 20lbs. Its not really that much of an additional financial burden when you are eating processed food because it's fast and cheap and you have to be at a meeting for x or pick up the kids from y or cram for that test.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

 

Womens and mens clothes are pretty different on that. I knew I was overweight, but when I stepped on the scale (which was the final kick that got me to change) I was 40! lbs heavier than I thought I was.

In losing 75 lbs (now probably closer to 85 lbs fat total), I dropped from size 40 pants to size 36, a drop of 2 sizes, and from size XXL shirts to size XL, a drop of one size. Nowadays though I'm on the fringe of fitting in 34 pants and can wear L shirts that are meant to be tight with a V cut (tight chest+loose belly = fail). Women can drop several sizes, but us bigger dudes might only drop a couple sizes even losing a huge amount of weight.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. In high school I was 205 lb., in the mid-teens BF% wise, and wore 36's. At my heaviest I was 35-40% BF, 265 lb, and wore 40's. Our guts get bigger and hang over the waistline, the waistline itself does't get bigger unless you wear your pants around your naval like an Urkle. The entire time past 220 or so I was a XL until I hit like 255. Really easy for guys to gain without knowing it due to how loose of a fit we can typically get away with as acceptable, making it take a long time before those cloths get tight.

 

And hells yeah on the tight chest, loose belly. I'm now wearing the midcut halfway between normal and "fitted", usually called "slim fit", and even those are starting to squeeze the chest. Making sure to get shirts that are cut right makes the weight ranges for wearing them much tighter.

[I-Jo]

I will absolutely concede- I don't deal well with understanding/accepting obesity.   I have had conversations about the mental impact/significance- with a friend  (who managed to keep her self out of morbidly obese category but barely and is not much healthier- just did a tough mudder this month actually) so I'm aware of this and recognize most often its' an issue. 

 

But I lack sympathy for "not knowing"  or just it is what it is- or any other excuse. I get it you have an issue that makes you want to eat- but I don't get how you can just not see it.  10 lbs- sure- maybe even 20- but there is a point where it's not "sneaking up on you"  

 

And I fully admit I come from a fit family and I've never been obese. so I am well aware my opinion is completely one sided. 

 

 

(PS.. the army told me I was 20 lbs over weight and I was never NOT maxing their PT test- scored over 300 every single time... I was in amazing running shape- although I think I look significantly better now... and I was floating at 160-165) So while I've never been fat or overweight- they did tell me I was. So I do understand that aspect.  LOL

[Thrillho]

I went from ~200 to ~300 between my wife getting pregnant and giving birth, and I will say this: I didn't notice.  I honestly didn't.  There was some sort of disconnect between my appearance and my ability to sort of acknowledge it. 

[I-Jo]

I'll never NEVER understand that.

 

Seriously- I never will.

 

I geek out if I start to feel my skin folding and I haven't worked out in one week.   Seriously- I don't understand.  And I don't know that I ever will.  I don't bother to fight it- I just accept people for whatever reason didn't see it- and they are making changes- or are trying to make changes. 

The past is the past.  Acknowledge it so you don't repeat it and move forward. 

[chairohkey]

There was some sort of disconnect between my appearance and my ability to sort of acknowledge it. 

 

Its called denial bro. I've been there.

[Thrillho]

I-Jo: I am like that NOW.  I am extremely health-conscious NOW.  I have acknowledged it, I'm not repeating it, I'm moving forwards. The past is the past.

 

At the time, though, the past was the present, and in that present, I was none of those things.  I was fat, and just thought I was 'big'.  I don't understand how I didn't notice, either.  I'm not asking you to understand it, either.  I'm just trying to make it plain that some people don't need to be yelled at and made to feel guilty for their appearance.  All of my fit friends just said "just get in shape", as though it were that easy, and it just made me resent them.  I LEARNED nothing about nutrition and health from friends, family or school.  I had to learn it all on my own, slowly, through trial and error, with friends and family and complete strangers alike belittling me, and people like me, the entire way.