Dave Ramsey

[smurray]

I have to agree that Dave Ramsey is really strict in his methodology and it is just like any other lifestyle choice. You can go all in, part of the way in or decide that is not the way you want to live. His personality is "balls to the walls" and you can tell when he talks about how he started in real estate and used loans to build his property portfolio and credit cards to buy everything he wanted. When creditors decided that he was a huge risk because of his age and the amount of credit he had, they all decided to collect at once; he witnessed his "house of cards" collapse around him. By not being in debt to anyone, this cannot happen to him again.

When he talks to someone who is in debt and wants to get out, he wants them to get out as soon as possible. He tells them to take care of food, clothing, housing, and transportation, the necessities and that is it. Everything else you make goes to the debt because he is looking at the long range vision and the sooner you are out of debt, the sooner you begin to save and invest.

He really frowns on taking loans from family members’ because family loans make one family member "ruler" over the other one. In the case of the father loaning money for the person to get out of the mobile home, the father takes charge of that person’s situation. If that person takes that loan, what happens to the relationship if they end up not paying it back? Could the father use the leverage of the loan to control other decisions in that person's life? If the father is truly concerned about the mobile home and does want to help them, then the best option would be to give the money with no strings attached. That option would have the least amount of impact on the relationship.

There are times when Dave gives advice and it makes you think "Why does that matter?", or "Doesn't he see they need that?", but he tries to give them the best advice possible within his financial principles and the few minutes he has on the radio. He is always looking at the fastest way out of debt and the long term for savings.

[Shaun1105]

I am a Dave Ramsey-trained Financial Coach. I did his training in Tennessee in the Fall of '09. I do Financial Coaching in the Niagara Region of Ontario. To be totally honest I am actually not as much a fan now as I once was - just cant' listen to a whole radio show anymore.

The Total Money Makeover book absolutely changed my life and I wholly recommend it to anyone.

If anyone has questions about something in it, feel free to message me.

Happy New Year!

Shaun

[babycakes1970]

When there are special needs children involved it really is a different kind of situation. I personally know a single mom with an autistic child who has had to turn down job promotions in order to keep her income low enough so that her child can recieve the services that she gets through Supplemental Security Income, which is an income based program. The value of the services that her child recieves is greater than the amount of the increased income that she would have earned had she taken those promotions. My own daughters recieve SSI and while they are not currently recieving any services I still have to keep my own income to such a level that they can remain eligible. I would love to not be dependent on their SSI and once I finish losing all this weight I would love to go to school part time for something. By the time that does happen almost all of my debts should be paid off. SSI limits what resources parents can have too.

I do agree that people should live within their means. I think that mostly what he sells is behavior modification.

[Kishi]

Well, he does sell behavior modification, but so does Steve Kamb and Robb Wolf and Loren Cordain and I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Honestly, everyone's trying to live true to the principle of personal responsibility. You got to figure for yourself what that's going to ultimately look like.

As for me, debt crushed me hard, and I ended up having to lean on my parents to help me with that. It's broken my heart - that money was to be theirs for retirement and vacation, and they gave me a massive gift instead.

I can't see myself ever getting another credit card. I envy you people who can hack the system, but there's just too much emotion wrapped up in the issue for me to ever go back.

[Philociraptor]

The only debts I have are school loans (around 100k) and car loan. I know how to set and stick to a budget. Would his book do anything for me?

[Loren Wade]

When you're a financial "guru", I think you'd need to be strict or no one would stick with it. Just my opinion. I certainly didn't stick to all of it, but at least I'm debt free.

Edit: Kishi, agreed.

[smurray]

When you're a financial "guru", I think you'd need to be strict or no one would stick with it. Just my opinion. I certainly didn't stick to all of it, but at least I'm debt free.

Edit: Kishi, agreed.

I didn't stick to all of it either. If I did, I would have been out of debt years ago. Kishi, well said.

The only debts I have are school loans (around 100k) and car loan. I know how to set and stick to a budget. Would his book do anything for me?

Possible motivation and inspiration. You have to remember that he uses the Bible to support his principles and that can be a distraction for some people. If you have never listen to his show, you can get it online. I would recommend listening to a few episodes so you can hear it being applied to different situations. On Friday he invites people who have become debt free to call in and share their story. That day really helps you to keep moving forward. He keeps stating the same things over and over so if you have listen to him in the past the show can get a little old and predictable. I can only listen to a little bit every once in awhile.

[Philociraptor]

Mmm, no fables please. I guess for me the idea of being debt free and having access to all my money is plenty of inspiration/motivation. I get really bored listening to other people's stories. Thanks!

[ryanmercer]

What does that have to do with the price apples?

Every five seconds he brings up Christianity, also for a guy about getting out of debt he sure does sell a lot of programs for rather high amounts.

[Loren Wade]

Every five seconds he brings up Christianity, also for a guy about getting out of debt he sure does sell a lot of programs for rather high amounts.

So he believes in something. So what. It's not brought up every 5 seconds in the book. Also, he even talks about that in his book. If you make a product, you need to sell it for what you are worth. He has done so. Honestly, $10 for a book is a very small price to pay to be debt free.

[Shaun1105]

Every five seconds he brings up Christianity, also for a guy about getting out of debt he sure does sell a lot of programs for rather high amounts.

I have led his Financial Peace University course on several occasions. In it, he very rarely mentions Christianity (I admit I may not notice it anymore though). That particular program is about $100. Does he make money on that? Yes, lots, probably. But is it worth it? I say absolutely. For a 13 week course that has life-changing information in it, I would call it a deal. Seven bucks a week and you get the course (including audio CDs), other support materials AND a book. It could be twice the price and still be worthwhile (in fact I believe it used to be much more expensive).

[smurray]

Every five seconds he brings up Christianity, also for a guy about getting out of debt he sure does sell a lot of programs for rather high amounts.

When he was down he went back to his faith to find guidance. From that and his financial knowledge and experience he rediscovered a different way in gathering wealth and began to teach that method to other people. Yes, he mentions Christianity when he mentions evidence of how to care for the wealth that comes your way. Much of the scripture he quotes is from the Old Testament and I would consider that Jewish teachings since it was written before Christianity began.

[Kishi]

Actually, I tell y'all what. I take issue with Dave Ramsey's Christianity as well. Not because he talks it up so much, but because it just seems to mean so little to him.

Let's consider. In Dave Ramsey, you find a gentleman who makes a great deal of money. He lives in a 13,000 sqft. mansion that cost him roughly $5 million. He rather famously has a shower that can have 18 heads spewing water at any given time. Great wealth, truly. And when pressed about what inspired his fiscal principles, he claims he went to Scripture for it. That's what causes him to give advice such as not taking loans and advocating giving 10% to charity.

Here's what bugs me: he clearly stopped reading the Bible before getting to the part where Jesus says that if you want to follow, it's better to give up all your money and lean into him. Or the part in Ecclesiastes where it says that money won't buy you happiness, but that true joy is found in God alone.

At the core of his Christianity, there seems to be a fundamental disconnect - a dishonesty with his King, an inconsistency that damages his witness to the world. He says that it is not our business as the community - as the ambassadors of the Kingdom - to know what's going on in his pocket book. Except that he's in a democracy. He's in a Kingdom. Our Monarch is absolute. We have no rights. We are slaves, and that extends to everything that we have and everything that we are.

Now, I'm not a religious man. I'm not going to give percentages and speak tyranny and prescribe actions as a means to salvation. That's not how we roll. I will say, however, that money is an indicator of freedom. And how you use that freedom speaks an awful lot about who you are and about where your heart is. Ramsey talks a good game, but any talk of calling him to accountability and to a deeper service to his king is met with a stiff disdain.

It's enough to make a lot of what he says ring hollow to me, and I can't help rolling my eyes at him when I'm reading what he says.

...

And, the rant is about as illegible as I thought it would be. Damn. Check this out for a more eloquent, satirical bent.

[ErikM]

question for loren, or anybody else who has read the book, at what point does he start talking about the actual makeover?

i'm almost to ch5 and all i've seen so far is a lot of myths/truths and success stories...or, is that the makeover? don't loan money don't consolidate don't this don't that

i hope it's about to turn towards the actual program

otherwise, i might not bother finishing this

thanks,

[Kishi]

It is! Chapter 6 is where the makeover starts. It illustrates the first step.

[Loren Wade]

You need to take scripture in context. If you read the whole story, you will understand that Jesus knew his heart. He knew that man loved money above all else. This story is simple: give up your idols. That man's idol was money.

It's not for me to judge whether Ramsey loves money more than Jesus or not. Fact is, his teaching works. It worked for me. It still does. Poverty theology doesn't work and neither does the "health and wealth" crap that televangelists spew. Love Jesus first. Use your money wisely... and by following this plan, I'd say I have.

[Shaun1105]

...

And, the rant is about as illegible as I thought it would be. Damn. Check this out for a more eloquent, satirical bent.

Thanks for posting this link - found it very interesting. The site itself looks very interesting though I really don't have time for another blog to follow I posted a comment there too.

I was thinking about a respone to your whole post but I think Loren did a great job; I also wholeheartedly agree with:

It's not for me to judge whether Ramsey loves money more than Jesus or not. Fact is, his teaching works. It worked for me. It still does. Poverty theology doesn't work and neither does the "health and wealth" crap that televangelists spew. Love Jesus first. Use your money wisely... and by following this plan, I'd say I have.

[Kishi]

Absolutely! I don't mean to pass judgment. I got a log or three in my own eye, and I don't mean to preach poverty theology. I mean, I dunno if y'all heard of Heaven or not, but apparently it's pretty awesome there. Streets of gold and all that.

It's not like I'm going to say his principles don't work, when they clearly do. He has, I suspect, tapped into one of the common graces that is available to all of us and is attempting to show us how to use it, so that we can all be free men and women. One could make a case that he is attempting this for the glory of God, to help people be free so that the community can do more potentially than just get by and pay off debts. A debt-free church could do an awful, awful lot to feed the hungry and shelter the homeless.

I know that having lots of money doesn't necessarily equate to a barrier to belief. I know that. There is nothing wrong with making truly sick amounts of money.

At the same time, guys, a part of me really has to wonder if Ramsey really, truly needs 18 shower heads. If he truly accepts God's sovereignty over his life, why does he have places in his budget for more clothes and more cars? He can only ever drive one of them, only ever wear so many of them. No matter how many shower heads he has, he can only stand under one. No matter how many rooms he has in that big house of his, he can only ever be in one of them. Why does he need so many more? Does he suffer from Multiple Corporeality Syndrome, such that he is necessarily physically present in more than one place and needs the extra shelter?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't make a lot of money. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy that money too. God invented fun, amongst other things, and money lets you have a lot of fun.

At the same time, reading his words and looking at his behavior, he just looks an awful lot to me like someone who has made up his mind to live in a way that suits him and is picking and choosing those scriptures that justify his choices to himself.

I mean no judgment against him. But is he immune to accountability, just because he makes lots of money and we like to make lots of money too?

Is he above reproach because he's the teacher?

Maybe it's just that I'm poor and embittered from seeing lots of sucky teachers, but something just puts me off about this.

[Loren Wade]

Absolutely! I don't mean to pass judgment. I got a log or three in my own eye, and I don't mean to preach poverty theology. I mean, I dunno if y'all heard of Heaven or not, but apparently it's pretty awesome there. Streets of gold and all that.

It's not like I'm going to say his principles don't work, when they clearly do. He has, I suspect, tapped into one of the common graces that is available to all of us and is attempting to show us how to use it, so that we can all be free men and women. One could make a case that he is attempting this for the glory of God, to help people be free so that the community can do more potentially than just get by and pay off debts. A debt-free church could do an awful, awful lot to feed the hungry and shelter the homeless.

I know that having lots of money doesn't necessarily equate to a barrier to belief. I know that. There is nothing wrong with making truly sick amounts of money.

At the same time, guys, a part of me really has to wonder if Ramsey really, truly needs 18 shower heads. If he truly accepts God's sovereignty over his life, why does he have places in his budget for more clothes and more cars? He can only ever drive one of them, only ever wear so many of them. No matter how many shower heads he has, he can only stand under one. No matter how many rooms he has in that big house of his, he can only ever be in one of them. Why does he need so many more? Does he suffer from Multiple Corporeality Syndrome, such that he is necessarily physically present in more than one place and needs the extra shelter?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't make a lot of money. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy that money too. God invented fun, amongst other things, and money lets you have a lot of fun.

At the same time, reading his words and looking at his behavior, he just looks an awful lot to me like someone who has made up his mind to live in a way that suits him and is picking and choosing those scriptures that justify his choices to himself.

I mean no judgment against him. But is he immune to accountability, just because he makes lots of money and we like to make lots of money too?

Is he above reproach because he's the teacher?

Maybe it's just that I'm poor and embittered from seeing lots of sucky teachers, but something just puts me off about this.

I totally understand what you mean and are coming from now. First, I'd like to say thank you for not bashing and discussing this so respectfully. As a Christian I am commonly bashed for my beliefs, so seeing someone so respectful about it really makes me happy.

Second, I don't know how many shower heads he has but unfortunately, it's not my business either. Of course, everyone should be judged by their fruits. Obviously he's got some huge chops, but at the same time... I have no clue where his relationship with Jesus is. I just don't. I have no idea if his love for Jesus is greater than or less than his love of money. So, the only thing I can take him on is his principles, his book, and what he says and does. I honestly do not follow everything he says or does to know if he's done something reproachable. The bottom line still stands, however, that his book is timeless and it works.

And if you're put off by it, then don't do it. There's a thousand other books and teachers out there to follow. This one just happened to work for me and the book was completely coincidental that he was a Christian. In fact, I didn't know he was until I read it.

I have the belief that if I am blessed with lots of money, that I'd be able to bless others with it. The more you give, the more blessed you are as well. I've noticed this in my own life. The more I give and am generous to others (as much as my financial status allows), the happier and better off I am. I love helping people and love blessing them with money and/or gifts.

[ryanmercer]

Actually, I tell y'all what. I take issue with Dave Ramsey's Christianity as well. Not because he talks it up so much, but because it just seems to mean so little to him.

Let's consider. In Dave Ramsey, you find a gentleman who makes a great deal of money. He lives in a 13,000 sqft. mansion that cost him roughly $5 million. He rather famously has a shower that can have 18 heads spewing water at any given time. Great wealth, truly. And when pressed about what inspired his fiscal principles, he claims he went to Scripture for it. That's what causes him to give advice such as not taking loans and advocating giving 10% to charity.

Here's what bugs me: he clearly stopped reading the Bible before getting to the part where Jesus says that if you want to follow, it's better to give up all your money and lean into him. Or the part in Ecclesiastes where it says that money won't buy you happiness, but that true joy is found in God alone.

At the core of his Christianity, there seems to be a fundamental disconnect - a dishonesty with his King, an inconsistency that damages his witness to the world. He says that it is not our business as the community - as the ambassadors of the Kingdom - to know what's going on in his pocket book. Except that he's in a democracy. He's in a Kingdom. Our Monarch is absolute. We have no rights. We are slaves, and that extends to everything that we have and everything that we are.

Now, I'm not a religious man. I'm not going to give percentages and speak tyranny and prescribe actions as a means to salvation. That's not how we roll. I will say, however, that money is an indicator of freedom. And how you use that freedom speaks an awful lot about who you are and about where your heart is. Ramsey talks a good game, but any talk of calling him to accountability and to a deeper service to his king is met with a stiff disdain.

It's enough to make a lot of what he says ring hollow to me, and I can't help rolling my eyes at him when I'm reading what he says.

...

And, the rant is about as illegible as I thought it would be. Damn. Check this out for a more eloquent, satirical bent.

Well put.

[Kishi]

I totally understand what you mean and are coming from now. First, I'd like to say thank you for not bashing and discussing this so respectfully. As a Christian I am commonly bashed for my beliefs, so seeing someone so respectful about it really makes me happy.

Second, I don't know how many shower heads he has but unfortunately, it's not my business either. Of course, everyone should be judged by their fruits. Obviously he's got some huge chops, but at the same time... I have no clue where his relationship with Jesus is. I just don't. I have no idea if his love for Jesus is greater than or less than his love of money. So, the only thing I can take him on is his principles, his book, and what he says and does. I honestly do not follow everything he says or does to know if he's done something reproachable. The bottom line still stands, however, that his book is timeless and it works.

And if you're put off by it, then don't do it. There's a thousand other books and teachers out there to follow. This one just happened to work for me and the book was completely coincidental that he was a Christian. In fact, I didn't know he was until I read it.

I have the belief that if I am blessed with lots of money, that I'd be able to bless others with it. The more you give, the more blessed you are as well. I've noticed this in my own life. The more I give and am generous to others (as much as my financial status allows), the happier and better off I am. I love helping people and love blessing them with money and/or gifts.

It's the internet, brother. Dunno if you noticed, but everybody seems to be yelling all the time out here. Figured we here in this community could do with a bit less of that.

And please, please don't mishear me. I agree with the principles in his book. They are good principles. I do not question their validity, and nobody is happier that I have no credit cards than me. It's a rather giddy thing, and it would be all the sweeter if I hadn't needed to rely on my parents to do it for me. But I'm poor and prone to bitterness, and even this victory in my life has the potential to make me angry because I wasn't strong enough to win on my own.

His teaching doesn't put me off. It's the man himself whom I find off-putting. He reminds me too much of the entrepreneurs whom I have known who would talk about God to sell you things or quote scriptures to justify who they were instead of being brought to the despair and freedom that is the foot of the Cross.

I agree with what you're saying. Money is a blessing, for yourself and for others. I'm with you on that, I really am. It's Christian Hedonism. Very John Piper. I dig it. I just think Ramsey's more invested in the Hedonism side.

Still, it's an open-handed thing. Worthy of much discussion. Not worthy of fighting.

[Loren Wade]

It's the internet, brother. Dunno if you noticed, but everybody seems to be yelling all the time out here. Figured we here in this community could do with a bit less of that.

And please, please don't mishear me. I agree with the principles in his book. They are good principles. I do not question their validity, and nobody is happier that I have no credit cards than me. It's a rather giddy thing, and it would be all the sweeter if I hadn't needed to rely on my parents to do it for me. But I'm poor and prone to bitterness, and even this victory in my life has the potential to make me angry because I wasn't strong enough to win on my own.

His teaching doesn't put me off. It's the man himself whom I find off-putting. He reminds me too much of the entrepreneurs whom I have known who would talk about God to sell you things or quote scriptures to justify who they were instead of being brought to the despair and freedom that is the foot of the Cross.

I agree with what you're saying. Money is a blessing, for yourself and for others. I'm with you on that, I really am. It's Christian Hedonism. Very John Piper. I dig it. I just think Ramsey's more invested in the Hedonism side.

Still, it's an open-handed thing. Worthy of much discussion. Not worthy of fighting.

Agreed. I'm with you too. Nice catch on the Christian hedonism thing.

[Elastigirl]

Is anyone following the baby steps in the total makeover plan?

What step are you on?

We just finished saving up 6 months of living expenses.Woohoo! We are also cash paying my son's college (cause we didn't save in advance.

I think it would be nice if we could encourage one another as we head to our goals. Sometimes it seems like all your friends are out spending and you are saying we can't afford it and it gets hard. But hearing from other people doing it is encouraging.

We just finsihed the 6 months in saving (can't rememer the step#) and so need to make our goals for the next step. I can't believe we actually saved 6 months, while paying for my son's college. It seemed like such a big mountain. But we just keep going and did it.

[Loren Wade]

Congrats, that is amazing.

[Shaun1105]

We are also working on the 3-6 months expenses step (which is Baby Step 4). Won't be complete for a while because we need to buy a new (used!) car very soon and it will be with cash of course.