Weight Lifting questions

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Yup, SS is quite the authority on lifting. And I am not surprised that the squat technique is different from the gym instructors. I have low confidence in gym instructors' ability to teach anything dealing with free weights.

This. My strength coach it high school taught me things to focus on in my squats form that I have found out now directly limited my strength gains. Specifically, he told me to keep my feet parallel to each other instead of ducking them out.

[bprime]

Man, it's a textbook (SS)!! I felt like a student again cramming for my first session in the gym yesterday!

This is how EVERY beginning trainee should be in approaching lifting if they are serious about getting strong.. I am so very proud of you.

[Summer827]

Yup, SS is quite the authority on lifting. And I am not surprised that the squat technique is different from the gym instructors. I have low confidence in gym instructors' ability to teach anything dealing with free weights.

Oh, I'm tending to agree with the low confidence... But how would an average Joe know who to believe or what not to? It's sad. And kinda scary!

[Summer827]

This. My strength coach it high school taught me things to focus on in my squats form that I have found out now directly limited my strength gains. Specifically, he told me to keep my feet parallel to each other instead of ducking them out.

At least I don't have any *real* ingrained training to un-train!!

[Summer827]

This is how EVERY beginning trainee should be in approaching lifting if they are serious about getting strong.. I am so very proud of you.

Thanks!

[chairohkey]

This. My strength coach it high school taught me things to focus on in my squats form that I have found out now directly limited my strength gains. Specifically, he told me to keep my feet parallel to each other instead of ducking them out.

Your coach wasn't wrong.

http://www.70sbig.com/blog/2012/01/qa-16/#more-6210

Toe angle when squatting will is dependent on mobility of the hips, knees, and ankles (and everywhere in between). In my opinion, the reason that the “toes out” style of squatting was developed was to account for poor mobility in lifters; pointing the toes out allowed the lifter to get his knees out and avoid hip impingement and achieve proper positioning. If the lifter has the mobility to use more “toes in positions”, then they should do so. The toes won’t be straight forward, but just outside of forward. A lifter should never put them at 45 degrees with 30 degrees being the outer limit.

I’m starting to understand the mechanics of why the toes forward position improves “torque at the hip” (a phrase that Kelly Starrett uses on a regular basis). Reference this post; it explains how a toes out position facilitates a collapsed arch (“navicular drop”) which shifts the positioning of the ankle and subsequently the knee and the hip. To put it simply, when the mobility exists to have the toes more forward and avoid the collapsed arch, the force is distributed more efficiently through each structure in the chain from the feet on up. It will specifically reduce medial stress on the knees, distribute more stress to the lateral thigh and hips, and produce better tightness in the posterior thigh and hip.

However, it’s all dependent on having the mobility to do it. That’s why I say mobility will dictate the foot angle “right now”. You may need to squat with your toes out today because your overall mobility isn’t capable of shoving the knees out effectively with the toes forward, but it is probably possible to subtly move them in over a few months of time (as you improve mobility).

[jdanger]

I knew someone would post this and I'll bet dollars to donuts that Corey's coach was still wrong for a few reasons. It's all about the context. A lot of coaches try to hammer their trainees into a preconceived notion of "the correct way" when of course there is no universal correct way. Most coaches wouldn't even be aware of these nuances and they are just repeating the way they were taught.

Note that the snippet you posted even says that when someone has the requisite mobility a "straight forward" toe position still isn't ideal. More forward? Yes. Parallel? No.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

But don't knees need to track the toes? If toes are in, do knees stay in?

[bprime]

The most important part of what you posted was that very last paragraph.

However, it’s all dependent on having the mobility to do it. That’s why I say mobility will dictate the foot angle “right now”. You may need to squat with your toes out today because your overall mobility isn’t capable of shoving the knees out effectively with the toes forward, but it is probably possible to subtly move them in over a few months of time (as you improve mobility).

I rather see/believe it's more important that a beginning trainee open up his knees/hips and hit proper depth than toe positioning (provided your toes aren't out greater than 30-ish degrees). It's all about a little bit of everything to make the most of everything in the beginning.

[chairohkey]

The most important part of what you posted was that very last paragraph.

I rather see/believe it's more important that a beginning trainee open up his knees/hips and hit proper depth than toe positioning (provided your toes aren't out greater than 30-ish degrees). It's all about a little bit of everything to make the most of everything in the beginning.

Agreed. Nevertheless one should still work on achieving the mobility to execute a "more" toes forward squat to cash in on the mechanical advantage.

[jdanger]

But don't knees need to track the toes? If toes are in, do knees stay in?

Basically yes. The other thing going on here is that in a healthy athlete an externally rotated (knees out) position allows them to tap into the (relatively large) external rotators (glute med/min) to a greater degree. The "hip torque" "lost" on the adductors in a correct toe out position is generally balanced out by this assuming the athlete knows how to use their glutes.

Like most things I think the "toe in" thing has been exaggerated to a great degree. I squat with a little bit of toe out and to hear these guys tell it I'm neglecting my adductors. The giant chunks of flesh on the inside of my thighs that prevents me from entertaining such extravagances as corduroy pants would like to disagree. As would pretty much any weightlifters with a "toe out" ATG squat.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Basically yes. They other thing going on here is that in a healthy athlete an externally rotated (knees out) position allows them to tap into the (relatively large) external rotators (glute med/min) to a greater degree. The "hip torque" "lost" on the adductors in a correct toe out position is generally balanced out by this assuming the athlete knows how to use their glutes.

Like most things I think the "toe in" thing has been exaggerated to a great degree. I squat with a little bit of toe out and to hear these guys tell it I'm neglecting my adductors. The giant chunk of flesh on the inside of my thighs that prevents me from entertaining such extravagances as corduroy pants would like to disagree. As would pretty much any weightlifter's with a "toe out" ATG squat.

Ahh, the butt pinch my wife is always making fun of me for in my squats.

[bprime]

I hate corduroy. The texture makes me cringe.

[bigm141414]

Basically yes. The other thing going on here is that in a healthy athlete an externally rotated (knees out) position allows them to tap into the (relatively large) external rotators (glute med/min) to a greater degree. The "hip torque" "lost" on the adductors in a correct toe out position is generally balanced out by this assuming the athlete knows how to use their glutes.

Like most things I think the "toe in" thing has been exaggerated to a great degree. I squat with a little bit of toe out and to hear these guys tell it I'm neglecting my adductors. The giant chunks of flesh on the inside of my thighs that prevents me from entertaining such extravagances as corduroy pants would like to disagree. As would pretty much any weightlifters with a "toe out" ATG squat.

j dizzle, can you move to Texas and train me? I have a feeling your wealth of knowledge and practical experience would benefit me greatly

[jdanger]

Haha if you're buyin I'm flyin BM.

Incidentally this video just popped up on my FB feed. This is how I teach/perform the back squat in support of Olympic lifting and sport. The specifics regarding what "toe out/in" or "foot position" means and what's appropriate varies by, you guessed it, the individual. It's easy to get lost in the minutia during these discussions but what matters is movement. Moving into and out of safe, powerful positions consistently and with as much power as you can possibly harness. The earth doesn't care if your toes are at 17 or 24 degrees. You push hard enough and it's going to run away from you all the same.

[bigm141414]

Haha if you're buyin I'm flyin BM.

I can offer $3.50. Take it or leave it

Incidentally this video just popped up on my FB feed. This is how I teach/perform the back squat in support of Olympic lifting and sport. The specifics regarding what "toe out/in" or "foot position" means and what's appropriate varies by, you guessed it, the individual. It's easy to get lost in the minutia during these discussions but what matters is movement. Moving into and out of safe, powerful positions consistently and with as much power as you can possibly harness. The earth doesn't care if your toes are at 17 or 24 degrees. You push hard enough and it's going to run away from you all the same.

Nice video.

[jdanger]

$3.50 gets ya a signed roll of athletic tape. Meantime I'll help you as much as I can over the internet for free!

[Nmetzler]

Sounds like good info. I don't know if its already been covered or not but my biggest tip would be start of light and make sure your form is where it needs to be. Then add weight each workout while concentrating on form. I know from my experience nobody wants to look like a weakling at the gym, but i think the most embarrassing thing (and most dangerous) is doing exercises that you're not familiar with wrong at a higher weight. I read the posts above about form and what not, but i think a lot of it has to do with muscle memory and making sure that you work all of your muscle groups up, so you're not unbalanced with muscle development. It's easy to add weight as you go each time, having the right muscles developed so you don't tweak something you shouldn't is a hell of a lot harder. Progress at a steady pace that is safe, it won't matter that it took you a little longer in the beginning if its more than just a fad. Make every rep count, on the extension and the retraction, both movements work your muscles.

Days that your resting is when your body is repairing and creating muscle mass, and are just as important as gym days in my opinion.