Ideal Male Body

[Highbinder]

Ok I know what many of you think when you see this title. "There's no such thing! Everyone has their own preferences. That's what makes this world such a beautiful place." Or something along those lines.

But societies throughout history have clearly defined what they saw as the ideal for their time periods. These definitions are so clear in fact that historians have even pinpointed the ideals for females in past time periods (3,000 Years Of Perfect Figures: The Ideal Women’s Body From Ancient Egypt To Today – EMGN).

Ideals for men have been just as apparent, but because of humankind's nature to value female aesthetic beauty over male aesthetic beauty (not being sexist here, this is just fact), the ideal male body is less talked about. Many say that the ideal male form has already been found. I've been told that da Vinci found it when he drew the famous Vitruvian Man, but from what I've found Leonardo only meant to set skeletal standards -- he didn't even take thickness, let alone muscle size, into account. I've also come across the theory that the human body should fit the golden ratio (no, despite much speculation, da Vinci did NOT use the golden ratio when constructing the Vitruvian Man). Steve Reeves at the time the pictures in the following article were taken apparently fits this ratio almost on the dot. Please tell me, does he look ideal to you? (How to Build the Ideal Male Body | Muscle For Life) Not in my opinion.

The only compelling pieces of what I believe to be true ideal male proportions are portrayed through Greek sculpture. The canons of proportions by which these statues were made are best shown through a Roman copy of the destroyed Doryphoros,

Click this bar to view the original image of 727x1351px.

representative of Polykleitos' canon, and a Roman replica of Lysippos' demolished Apoxyomenos,

representative of Lysippos' canon. Eugen Sandow,

famous 1800s strongman, thought similarly. He developed what he called the "Grecian Ideal." His goal was to look as much like a Greek statue as possible, and he used supposed measurements and ratios he found from measuring Greek statues to develop it (Sculpting the Body of a Greek God - The Man The Myth). Sandow apparently took measurements based off the wrists of the statues and made ratios it to other measurements of the body. I can't find anything explaining as to how he came up with his theory, most likely because his daughters burned many of his possessions after his death because of suspicion of his supposed homosexuality. But I've also read that Greeks proportioned their statues according to the size of their distal phalanges, (third bone in the pinkie) (The Canon of Polykleitos on JSTOR)(make an account -- it's free) not the wrist, which almost disproves Sandow's work.

Right now I'm trying to take apart the information from the late article to find width measurements and properties, but it's a cumbersome read and the illustrations are a bit confusing.

I posted this because I thought it was interesting, wanted to see other peoples' opinions, and am looking for research help. Please post your thoughts and any possible suggestions, and pm me if you'd like to help out further.

[Highbinder]

Oh and I recently just bought Muscle Building, by Earle E. Liederman, published in 1927, on Amazon. It should come in the mail by the 21st. This book is accredited with explaining Eugen Spandow's Grecian Ideal. Hopefully it can shed some more light on the subject.

[Mike_d85]

Heh, you immediately made me think of this commentary from Arnold. 

 

You might want to go as far forward as the 1980's to see if you can find more modern info on training and maybe a detailed guide to proportion (like bodybuilding judgement handbooks or something).  If that looks up your alley then Arnold might be a treasure trove for you.  His methodologies, goals, recommended reading, and progress are insanely well documented since he became so ridiculously famous with his film career.

[Waldo]

Eh, count me in the camp that agrees with the perfection of Reeves.

 

You do realize the pictures used in that article all use a specific bodybuilding pose technique where you flex while using vaccum to suck in the belly.  He didn't actually look like that.

 

This pic shows Reeves relatively unflexed (just chest and lat pump for the most part):

(on the left)

 

Reeves may also be the last natural Mr. Olympia.

[Highbinder]

Wow I can't believe I missed that. There's actually an article on Steve Reeves and the Grecian Ideal that I kinda tossed away because I saw Reeves through the pictures in that article, but when I get home I'll post it so you guys can see what you think.

[Artemis]

This is very interesting.  Is this a research project because you believe the info could be interesting, or are you actually thinking of trying this?  

From an art perspective, many of the pieces produced during the greek classical period relied on impossible proportions, at least for the overall body.  It might be possible to mimic musculature; I don't know. Waldo would be better at that.   Grecian art also changes rather rapidly, I believe all of these pieces are from the classical, but many Hellenistic sculptures display similar athletic ideals, just with more movement.  There were also a multitude of artists, and I highly doubt that any two pieces have the exact same proportions.  The artist of apoxyomenos is specifically recorded as stating that he did not rely on creating a plausible figure (specifically, I believe his head is much smaller than that of an earlier generation of statues).

 

My point is mainly that I don't believe you'll find any 'perfect' standard.  This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to achieve a Grecian body, I just wouldn't nitpick too much over a bit of difference here or there.  Maybe go off of picture comparisons rather than measurements.   This is a very cool project and I think the two human examples have amazing bodies

[Darth Yoga]

I occasionally get dragged into doing historical reenactment (German Renaissance, American colonial, and assorted others). That has been really interesting in terms of thinking about the "ideal body" for men. The clothes of a period tend to emphasize certain things over others, and flatter some physiques more than others. For instance, I was really annoyed at the way the 18th c. suit fit, and thought it was really unflattering, but the person fitting me was trying to explain it is supposed to fit that way. The jackets are supposed to make you look like you've got narrow, sloped shoulders, and they hang most flatteringly with a sway back. The short pants and tights and high-heeled boots all highlight how muscular and shapely your calves are. (Most portraits of the time of men are posed with one leg turned to the side, showing off their sexy calves.) Basically it's about looking like you spend a lot of time horseback, like an aristocrat, and no time whatsoever engaged in strenuous manual labor, like a dirty peasant. That really got me thinking, and I find I can't separate the idea of the "ideal body" from the social implications of what way of living creates that physique.

 

I think that is part of why I'm not fond of the "ideal" of modern bodybuilders. To be fair, I did grow up living with my bodybuilder uncle who was a total douchebag, so I accept I'm a little biased against it, but bias aside, it comes back to "What way of life does this physique evoke?" I personally see no appeal in looking like you OBVIOUSLY spend hours at the gym and eat only egg whites and protein shakes. I prefer a look that could plausibly be the natural result of a vigorous athletic lifestyle and a moderate healthy diet. The super-exaggerated upper body and the tiny waist just looks unnatural to me, and I really don't like the excessively lean look. I think somewhere around 10-15% body fat would be my visual ideal on most guys, no lower than that. I see the whole issue sort of like a woman wearing really heavy makeup, or obvious plastic surgery. I generally find it most attractive when it looks plausibly natural, but I totally appreciate other people have a different aesthetic.

 

I'm no expert on this, but the classical Greek statuary I've seen definitely covers what I'd think of as the ideal male body. (Well, aside from generally being hung like twelve-year-old boys. )  They are generally lean but not ripped, muscular but not massive. The waists, upper body, and lower body in similar proportion. Chest rarely much wider than hips. Only a slight narrowing at the waist, often with thick obliques, like in the Doryphoros image @Highbinder posted. I see it as a nicely balanced physique, the natural result of training for athletic performance, rather than one based on working to make this or that specific body part larger or smaller. The men depicted as exceptionally brawny (Hercules, Poseidon) are in the minority, and besides are generally quite thickly built all around. Still fairly lean, but heavily muscled through the whole torso. No dainty little waists. No massive bulging pecs. No shoulders more than twice as wide as hips. No contrived poses to exaggerate or distort the body. Just the natural athletic male body.

[Waldo]

 

I'm no expert on this, but the classical Greek statuary I've seen definitely covers what I'd think of as the ideal male body. (Well, aside from generally being hung like twelve-year-old boys. )  They are generally lean but not ripped, muscular but not massive. The waists, upper body, and lower body in similar proportion. Chest rarely much wider than hips. Only a slight narrowing at the waist, often with thick obliques, like in the Doryphoros image @Highbinder posted. I see it as a nicely balanced physique, the natural result of training for athletic performance, rather than one based on working to make this or that specific body part larger or smaller. The men depicted as exceptionally brawny (Hercules, Poseidon) are in the minority, and besides are generally quite thickly built all around. Still fairly lean, but heavily muscled through the whole torso. No dainty little waists. No massive bulging pecs. No shoulders more than twice as wide as hips. No contrived poses to exaggerate or distort the body. Just the natural athletic male body.

 

Like your example about the calves, the statues reflect a social situation; soldiers that had to carry around heavy armor, building massive obliques in the process.

 

The ability to even build a thick chest is relatively modern, horizontal pressing is not really a heavily used movement for anything, especially repetitively at high loads.

 

Competitive drug fueled bodybuilding really skews everything.  When people become interested in the "how big can I really get" formulas, the first reaction is either anger or mocking disbelief when finding out the answer, because you really can't get all that big naturally.

 

For me, I tend to view RB Adrian Peterson as about the physical max for my frame, no matter how much effort I put in, I will never be bigger than he is without drugs.

 

[Darth Yoga]

 

Like your example about the calves, the statues reflect a social situation; soldiers that had to carry around heavy armor, building massive obliques in the process.

 

I was wondering what activity would give you massive obliques! I can see how heavy armor would do it.

 

For one of those historical recreation related things I got volunteered to help hoist sails on this old ship, and after about 20 minutes of pulling rope hand over hand in various directions, I thought, "Oh... THIS is why Popeye is drawn with ENORMOUS forearms."

[Butternut]

Ori Hofmekler gets into the history of the Greeks diet and talks about body portion in his book "The Warrior Diet" it's an interesting concept and read.

 

Being a chick I think the "Grecian body" is very attractive and like Waldo said that's from carrying armor around with ya all day.  To be honest though, if you look like you don't sit around all day, lift some heavy shit and look like your not afraid to bale hay all day, that's an ideal body. I think women (or maybe just me) like that natural look in men. 

[AaHa]

I use to think the ideal male body was the body builder type, arnold, type, trained to get there, but realized that only way that would happen would be to use injectables. I was not going to do that. 

 

Now the Father body type is in, so guys, lets stop trying to get healthy and drink more beer.