Harvard School of Public Health Study Highlights Risk of Early Death from Red Meat

[Zorch]

Biggest question I have with the study is that they mention that they attempted to correct for a number of factors; however one massive factor that was not mentioned as being adjusted for(despite being part of the data collected) was overall caloric intake - the high-meat-consuming groups had a greatly increased caloric intake relative to the lower-consuming groups(with a lower activity level, to boot). This would seem to be a significant potential factor that wasn't corrected for, and a pretty major one, at that.

[Loren Wade]

I don't understand how we could compare ancient man to today's man as far as life-expectancy. I mean... seriously. Back then an infection could kill you. Today we have over the counter medication for that. Duh. Of course they didn't live as long.

Secondly... that doesn't change the fact that their diet healthier.

The rebuttals at Marks Daily Apple AND Robb Wolf are plenty for me. I eat bacon almost daily. I don't eat breads. My cholesterol is well below normal, I have no signs of Crohn's disease, and I am in the best health of my life. After years of high carb/low fat diets and no answer to my declining health.

We wonder why America is obese and diseased but the suggested diet hasn't changed.

Sure, correlation does not equal causation but damn I feel good.

source, source, source, source, source, source

[Atalan]

So your argument is that modern humankind is less robust at 7 billion strong than maybe 35,000 neandethals that lived to 30 years old and were wiped out by a similar number of cromagnon folks who were less evolved than we are...? Yeah...

Neanderthal were more robust (skeletally) than modern humans. But then, we ran our prey exhaustion (yes, I subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis... which includes a very sane way of hunting, even though it means running down an animal until it falls over from exhaustion) compared to probable Neanderthal method of hunting, which based on skeletal remains appears to have been to jump on the animal and stab it with stone knives).

[spatzcat]

I don't understand how we could compare ancient man to today's man as far as life-expectancy. I mean... seriously. Back then an infection could kill you. Today we have over the counter medication for that. Duh. Of course they didn't live as long.

Secondly... that doesn't change the fact that their diet healthier.

The rebuttals at Marks Daily Apple AND Robb Wolf are plenty for me. I eat bacon almost daily. I don't eat breads. My cholesterol is well below normal, I have no signs of Crohn's disease, and I am in the best health of my life. After years of high carb/low fat diets and no answer to my declining health.

We wonder why America is obese and diseased but the suggested diet hasn't changed.

Sure, correlation does not equal causation but damn I feel good.

source, source, source, source, source, source

I physically can not eat bacon everyday. I can eat back bacon everyday - but not the greasy bacon. My body rebells against grease and high fat meats. no like.

[AKLulu]

One thing I find interesting is the correlation that long life expectancy is better when many of the people who are above 60 in this country are on any number of prescription drugs or other life extending medical interventions. My parents are both over 75 and travel around the world a few times a year doing wonderfully fun things and neither is on any type of drug. Anecdotal, sure. Do they eat carbs? few....a little potato, rice, whole grain bread. Do they eat meat? Yep...do they exercise? Yep, walk, swim and do back exercises. THAT is what I want. I want to live a healthy and functionally capable life. I certainly want to be gone long before I would be sitting in a wheel chair in the window at some old folks day care center. That is not life to me. I have seen it up close and personal in the many people we visited when my gran was 93 and in her 1 year decline into death. We visited daily or a few times a week and most of these poor folks NEVER had a visitor. What is the point of living that long if your family can't even visit you and you are on meds to keep you alive? Seriously?

I guess I am digressing--but someone brought up increased life expectancy....I want life quality...seriously!

I'm with you, Oystergirl. I don't necessarily want to live a very very long life, I want to live healthier and happier life My parents are in their late 60s and they're still running around Alaska in boats and on snowmachines (snowmobiles for those of you who don't understand the Alaskan vernacular). They go hunting, fishing and berry-picking. They go traveling in tiny planes to go see the grandkids and they have fun playing with them. I want to be able to PLAY when I get old. That sounds like a good life to me.

[Fryinbox]

I'm not terribly concerned with this study. I rarely eat red meat more than once every two weeks (and when I do, it's a helluva good steak), but it seems they're almost reiterating something they've been saying about ALL types of EVERYTHING for decades. Everything in moderation. Too much sugar can make you fat, but indulging once every other week isn't a sin. Same thing here. So long as you're not eating red meat every single meal, you should be fine. Combine that with the healthy lifestyle that's being talked about above, and I'm not terribly concerned.

Whoever brought up the "live healthy and happy instead of forever" idea is very right in my book as well. You only live once, and I want to make sure I'm healthy enough to do what I want to do before I go.

[aj_rock]

I physically can not eat bacon everyday. I can eat back bacon everyday - but not the greasy bacon. My body rebells against grease and high fat meats. no like.

I ate a whole package of bacon once... sure did NOT feel good afterwards

And Loren... you aren't being fair. There really is no way to correlate paleolithic diet with longevity and life expectancy because of the myriad complicating factors. So we really can't conclude ANYTHING about the 'healthiness' of paleolithic eating styles. Does it comprise of several accepted better eating habits? Yes, absolutely. Should your average person therefore be barred from consuming the occasional grain product or delicious confectionary? I would say that's a resounding no.

I mean, it's absolutely terrific that paleo has helped you reduce/eliminate your symptoms of Crohn's disease. Does that mean that everyone would see similar benefits from paleo? Just because of paleo? You are in the best shape of your life, but I would propose that you would achieve even better shape with good control of saturated fat/red meat intake. You had nothing to lose by going paleo; you have nothing to lose by lowering those intakes as well. Again, you have a specific disease that can be addressed by a specific change in dietary style that would not have the same effect in the whole population.

[Waldo]

I ate a whole package of bacon once... sure did NOT feel good afterwards

People talk about the carb flu thing...

Excess sugar or fat, either or, makes me feel like crap. I'm not that sensitive, but a large fries from McDonalds will make me feel a lot worse than 2 big slices of cake.

And there is frankly no reason to not eat grain/dairy unless you are actually allergic/intolerant of it. There is a reason that 99% of nonpaleo people that care about their diet see whole grains and basic dairy like milk/yogurt as some of the healthiest foods that you can possibly eat.

[Elastigirl]

People talk about the carb flu thing...

Excess sugar or fat, either or, makes me feel like crap. I'm not that sensitive, but a large fries from McDonalds will make me feel a lot worse than 2 big slices of cake.

.

Which is why this article doesn't hold water for me. The people who ate red meat, also didn't exercise , and ate more calories (probably sugar AND fries) so not very suprisingly to anyone , they had poor health.

And you know, right that when people talk about fat being they aren't talking about how healthy it is to eat food deep fried in canola oil?

[Waldo]

And you know, right that when people talk about fat being they aren't talking about how healthy it is to eat food deep fried in canola oil?

You're right....

Frying things in bacon grease and eating bucketfulls of bacon is so much better.

[spatzcat]

You're right....

Frying things in bacon grease and eating bucketfulls of bacon is so much better.

I gotta say, you and AJ Rock make the most sense to me. I completely disagree with the whole fatty greasy bacon everything paleo weirdness, but god forbid you stand against it.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

edit: I would like to know exactly how many people on NF who are paleo, purchase nitrate free bacon... maybe the majority do? if you are not, then i can assure you, that bacon is bad for you.

[aj_rock]

I gotta say, you and AJ Rock make the most sense to me. I completely disagree with the whole fatty greasy bacon everything paleo weirdness, but god forbid you stand against it.

Makes no sense to me what so ever.

edit: I would like to know exactly how many people on NF who are paleo, purchase nitrate free bacon... maybe the majority do? if you are not, then i can assure you, that bacon is bad for you.

This is what I'm afraid of... So many people on NF are putting a heck of a lot of weight behind paleo and consuming things with no fear of saturated fat or red meat. I could be wrong, and everyone will be fine. I really don't want to have to say 'I told you so' if NF'ers 30 years from now should start dropping like flies from heart attacks that were legitimately caused by over consumption of saturated fat. Like I said, I sure as hell don't want to be THAT guinea pig.

[Loren Wade]

I physically can not eat bacon everyday. I can eat back bacon everyday - but not the greasy bacon. My body rebells against grease and high fat meats. no like.

And that's fine. Everyone is different. I just don't believe there's any correlation between red meat and increased mortality. I think the correlation is there because people are eating grains.

I ate a whole package of bacon once... sure did NOT feel good afterwards

And Loren... you aren't being fair. There really is no way to correlate paleolithic diet with longevity and life expectancy because of the myriad complicating factors. So we really can't conclude ANYTHING about the 'healthiness' of paleolithic eating styles. Does it comprise of several accepted better eating habits? Yes, absolutely. Should your average person therefore be barred from consuming the occasional grain product or delicious confectionary? I would say that's a resounding no.

I mean, it's absolutely terrific that paleo has helped you reduce/eliminate your symptoms of Crohn's disease. Does that mean that everyone would see similar benefits from paleo? Just because of paleo? You are in the best shape of your life, but I would propose that you would achieve even better shape with good control of saturated fat/red meat intake. You had nothing to lose by going paleo; you have nothing to lose by lowering those intakes as well. Again, you have a specific disease that can be addressed by a specific change in dietary style that would not have the same effect in the whole population.

Maybe I'm not being fair... but I'm sick of seeing red meat demonized for the wrong reasons. The only correlation between red meat and increased risk of mortality is the grains people are eating that are causing inflammation. Thus, high fat increases cholesterol and then death. Inflammation is the problem, not fat.

Also... it's funny you mention Paleolithic man. I don't even think Paleolithic man existed... Which is even more controversial because I believe in creation.

There you have it.

This is what I'm afraid of... So many people on NF are putting a heck of a lot of weight behind paleo and consuming things with no fear of saturated fat or red meat. I could be wrong, and everyone will be fine. I really don't want to have to say 'I told you so' if NF'ers 30 years from now should start dropping like flies from heart attacks that were legitimately caused by over consumption of saturated fat. Like I said, I sure as hell don't want to be THAT guinea pig.

As long as they're eliminating grains, I don't see a problem. Inflammation is the enemy here...

[spatzcat]

it is my understanding that whole grains do not cause inflammation, and can actually reduce it. Refined grains - bad, whole grains - good.

[notanartmajor]

How about nobody sticks to ANY diet without carefully monitoring how they feel and keeping up with regular medical maintenance? That way you'll know if something is wrong because a doctor can actually show you, and then you can try something else that might be better.

[Waldo]

it is my understanding that whole grains do not cause inflammation, and can actually reduce it. Refined grains - bad, whole grains - good.

'Eh, I regard all that chronic inflammation stuff with paleo as mostly nonsense. Convince people looking into the diet (that aren't doing it) that they have all this low grade inflammation that they didn't know about, that there is something wrong with them (could there be a better way to prey on a hypocondriac). This diet will then fix all these issues that we are telling you that you have like that you didn't know that you have. And since excess bodyweight is often called inflammation, it is said to cure this inflammation as well. LOL Of course some people really do have food allergies that they didn't realize they had. But I would wager this is a very small % of people, especially in the US (people are just like dogs in the sense that mutts tend to have fewer ailments than purebreds).

[Philociraptor]

AJ: we really can't correlate red meat or saturated fat with longevity or life expectancy due to the myriad of complicating factors (from this very study). Also, I feel you're also a guinea pig, as Paleo is much closer to the diet that humans have been consuming for hundreds of thousands of years (if you believe in that) than the whole grain and low-fat diary filled diets.

[Elastigirl]

You're right....

Frying things in bacon grease and eating bucketfulls of bacon is so much better.

Well, since this thread started out discussing the red meat=death article, I would say that article does not prove that bacon is bad. I have some doubts about the whole eating tons of bacon myself, which is part of why I read the article. But, as Loren said, we have no idea what grains or other junk they were eating besides the bacon, so the article doe not sufficiently prove it's case.

[spatzcat]

Well, since this thread started out discussing the red meat=death article, I would say that article does not prove that bacon is bad. I have some doubts about the whole eating tons of bacon myself, which is part of why I read the article. But, as Loren said, we have no idea what grains or other junk they were eating besides the bacon, so the article doe not sufficiently prove it's case.

is it nitrate free?

[bigm141414]

is it nitrate free?

Mine is....

[Waldo]

AJ: we really can't correlate red meat or saturated fat with longevity or life expectancy due to the myriad of complicating factors (from this very study). Also, I feel you're also a guinea pig, as Paleo is much closer to the diet that humans have been consuming for hundreds of thousands of years (if you believe in that) than the whole grain and low-fat diary filled diets.

That they incidentally haven't been consuming for the last 10k years or so...

For over a thousand generations grains and dairy have been the guardians of feast and famine in the human diet. But that was before the dark times, before the archeovores....

[spatzcat]

Mine is....

that is good then. carry on.

[aj_rock]

AJ: we really can't correlate red meat or saturated fat with longevity or life expectancy due to the myriad of complicating factors (from this very study). Also, I feel you're also a guinea pig, as Paleo is much closer to the diet that humans have been consuming for hundreds of thousands of years (if you believe in that) than the whole grain and low-fat diary filled diets.

Mm I was referring to the myriad other studies that have been done linking saturated fat intake to health complications. I also really, really, really don't think the scientists conducting these studies would be so stupid as to not notice that there tends to also be a correlation between non-exercising, obesity, and junk food eating. So they do. Over the many many years that studies have been done, these factors have been identified and accounted for.

So, say you have three studies. One links lack of exercise and saturated fat intake to CHD. Another links obesity and saturated fat intake to CAD. The third links junk food high in saturated fat to strokes. Not saying these are accurate, but when saturated fat intake seems to pop up every god damn time, you HAVE to think that somethin's fishy.

I'm also not really a guinea pig, in that there is lots of data around us showing people that ate according to conventional and lived long, happy, healthy lives. So the data exists for that. Not so much for those who eat bacon all day erry day.

[oystergirl]

One thing that is absolutely true that grains carry a high level of anti-nutrients like leptin and phytates which are in the grain to protect the seed from predators as it cannot run away. Traditional cultures then took the grains and soured them, soaking them in lactic acid based solutions like whey in order to remove some of the phytates. They then used sour dough cultures of wild yeast to slow rise the dough and that took sometimes days to achieve. They were eating heritage grains like Eikorn and Spelt and not dwarf modified wheat shown in nutritional analysis to have a lot less nutritional value even as a whole grain.

When I was eating grains, I prepared them traditionally and even then I had a problem with them and thus went off gluten. I think that there are plenty of people who can eat grains, but I would suggest that you prepare them traditionally so you alleviate the very real issues present in the seed.

Waldo, you just said something interesting to me, first you said you feel better eating a couple of piece of cake than you do eating french fries. Remember that the oil they are fried in at mcdonalds is canola oil.....then you said canola oil isn't a problem. You said yourself it makes you feel bad. Do you want to explain that?

I think that carefully prepared diets on both sides of the fence can be healthy. I had a rib eye steak for my birthday last night, with mashed potatoes, sauteed vegetables and a slice of key lime cheesecake! Is that my regular diet? nope, I usually dont have cheese cake!

I am with loren though, having spent years searching for the right program that makes me feel good after feeling very very bad and being medicated. My body is all the laboratory I need.

There are also studies showing that cholesterol is good for you: http://www.westonaprice.org/cardiovascular-disease/benefits-of-high-cholesterol

and that saturated fat is also good for you and an integral part of all your cells and your brain so why would eating something your body needs to use to create itself be bad for you? http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/skinny-on-fats

[Loren Wade]

it is my understanding that whole grains do not cause inflammation, and can actually reduce it. Refined grains - bad, whole grains - good.

All grains are high in omega 6 = pro-inflammatory. All grains have gluten. All grains are extremely low in nutrients compared to meat and veggies. All grains are treated by the body as a high amount of sugar, refined or not.

Personally, I don't see anything good about them.