Song of Ice and Fire discussion (spoilers)

[scarletleavy]

I'm only on the first book, about half-way through, but I love spoilers so I'm weirdly enjoying this thread.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

My cred: I've read the first 3 books 3 times, the 4th 2, and Dance once.

I'm convinced of the whole idea that Robert Baratheon was a untrustworthy source for Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Lyanna and Rhaeger I think were in love and she ran away with him. The prince was described repeatedly as honorable, intellgent, and level headed, so not the type to rape. The reason she was locked away in that tower when Ned found her was she was carrying Rhaeger's child and he was protecting it from the war. Evidence:

- The amount of blood, alluding to childbirth

- She was guarded by 3 of the kingsguard, including the Commander AND The Sword of the Morning! I never see this mentioned as support and I don't know why. The kingsguard protects those of royal blood. If their captain and best fighter were the ones protecting Lyanna, she had to be carrying royal blood (Rhaegar's child) inside her.

I doubt Aegon is false, they wouldn't have gone through so much trouble to protect and conceal him if he was. That gives us 3 with Targaryen blood (Daenarys, Aegon, Jon). Tyrion possibly a 4th, but I doubt it. I lean more toward him being an advisor to Daenarys with all of his knowledge about dragon lore. There could be mroe out there we don't know about.

Now, Martin could kill off a dragon, but I doubt he will until after it has it's rider. The dragon must have 3 heads, and I think he would want to solidly establish this, so I think all 3 with the blood will ride a dragon, but after that no one is safe and he'll kill 1 or 2 off. As to which dragon Jon will ride, I kind of like the idea of Jon using his Wargness to be the one to bring the black under control, but I don't think that will happen. It seems to have become one of Dany's quests to tame the black, so I think she'll ride him, and she already has once already. There hasn't been much differentiating of characterization between the white and the green, so I'd lean toward Jon riding the white with the whole white wolf and "snow" name.

[NotBadForAHuman]

There hasn't been much differentiating of characterization between the white and the green, so I'd lean toward Jon riding the white with the whole white wolf and "snow" name.

That's interesting and almost falls in line with Bran and the greenseers...

I really wish I had more time right now to re-read 4 & 5! I'm the same as you - have read 1-3 3 times, 4 twice, and 5 once.

[shiggles]

Gah Noo. They changed Asha's name to Yara.

I suppose Asha may sound too much like Arya on TV.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

That and they wrote out Stannis's daughter.

Last night was sorta like soft core pr0n, feels like they're pushing too many of those scenes in there.

[Pheidippides]

I skipped over everyone's comments because I'm not quite there yet and my Gram (who is reading it with me) has already spoiled enough.

Awesome series, and show. Can't wait to catch up and be able to contribute something meaningful to this thread. Bahaha.

[airen123]

Gah Noo. They changed Asha's name to Yara.

I suppose Asha may sound too much like Arya on TV.

They did that because there's already an Osha-the wilding woman. Same as Lysa's son changed to Robin, because apparently us normal folk can't follow more than one "Robert"

[Max Power]

That and they wrote out Stannis's daughter.

Last night was sorta like soft core pr0n, feels like they're pushing too many of those scenes in there.

They do seem to be throwing a lot of sex scenes in there, but I've used that as a selling point to some of my friends that wouldn't ever watch a "fantasy" show.

[andygates]

Well, there are a lot of brothel and sex scenes in the book. GRRM, you dirty old man! But also, it's one of the vectors of power in this crapsack world. The men use violence, the women use sex; they even say it, explicitly, at some points in the narrative.

Moar dragonz.

[aj_rock]

Unfortunately, dragons are hella expensive to produce; much the same as why we didn't see THAT many zombies in Walking Dead. So we won't really get to see them that often

Lysa's son was nicknamed Robin in the books so at least that change is plausible

I agree with Corey'd prognosis the most. The only thing I hate about this point of the storyline (at the end of DWD) is that you KNOW some things HAVE to happen now; whereas in the first couple books anyone could die and the plot continues... now, you realize that in order for the plot to continue in it's trajectory, certain people HAVE to live. Ned had to die, Robb had to die, but you just CANT kill Jon yet. Too many plot points would just fall through.

Makes me wish I was more ignorant of plot mechanics. But I started getting that feeling in FFC and it got worse in terms of predictability in DWD.

[knifeboots]

Gah Noo. They changed Asha's name to Yara.

I suppose Asha may sound too much like Arya on TV.

They did that because there's already an Osha-the wilding woman. Same as Lysa's son changed to Robin, because apparently us normal folk can't follow more than one "Robert"

I heard that they were going to do that with Asha. I'm less concerned with that, and more about how close they stay to her characterization. As for the reasoning behind the name changes, I think it's easier to keep track of like-sounding names (or even two characters with the same name) via the written word, but harder with spoken word. Just my opinion, though.

That and they wrote out Stannis's daughter.

I hope that doesn't bite them in the rear later, writing out Stannis' daughter, unless GRRM already told them that she was an expendable subplot.

Last night was sorta like soft core pr0n, feels like they're pushing too many of those scenes in there.

Well, there are a lot of brothel and sex scenes in the book. GRRM, you dirty old man! But also, it's one of the vectors of power in this crapsack world. The men use violence, the women use sex; they even say it, explicitly, at some points in the narrative.

Oh yes - while the purple prose is definitely plentiful in his books, to some degree it does serve the plot. Cersei, for one, is very blunt about using sex to maintain her power hold in the wake of Robert's death, etc. And Baelish knows the value of a well-placed prostitute - it's all part of the political espionage. Sex can be used as a weapon, or as a means to hear things you wouldn't otherwise hear. It's ugly to say, but in a Middle Ages-type world like Westeros, it's not out of place. I just wish GRRM could write better sex scenes. Some of them are just examples of bad writing, subject matter notwithstanding.

[andygates]

In a deconstruction of a fantasy world, at least, which is what GRRM's up to. This ain't no historical reconstruction: it's a tragic but wildly entertaining idiot dance where Ned Stark's honour-dumbness dive is just the appetizer.

On which note, the sexy is turned up another notch in episode two. There's almost Kraken-peen!

[67alecto]

I realize that unless something in the story is pointed out by GRRM himself then it may not be true, but it was strongly hinted that Ice was melted down and reforged into Jaime's sword.

Yes, they clearly state that Ice was melted down and made into swords for Joffrey and Jaime (which he then gave to Brienne).

That and they wrote out Stannis's daughter.

Last night was sorta like soft core pr0n, feels like they're pushing too many of those scenes in there.

They did leave the door open for interpretation, since Melisandre said that Stannis' wife only gave him stillborn sons and death because the greyscale is often referred to as death.

The sex scene between Melisandre and Stannis happens in the books, but only as Melisandre briefly mentioning that it happened in one of her POV chapters in ADWD.

I didn't like Jon being surprised by Craster - no reason why that should have happened, let alone at that point in the story.

Bronn being named Commander of the City Watch (so they didn't have the Jacelyn Bywater character) could end up being good since it will keep Bronn around rather than treating him as they did in the books - he pretty much disappeared and only popped up occasionally. Jerome Flynn is great as Bronn, so the more screen time the better.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

They did leave the door open for interpretation, since Melisandre said that Stannis' wife only gave him stillborn sons and death because the greyscale is often referred to as death.

The sex scene between Melisandre and Stannis happens in the books, but only as Melisandre briefly mentioning that it happened in one of her POV chapters in ADWD.

I didn't like Jon being surprised by Craster - no reason why that should have happened, let alone at that point in the story.

Bronn being named Commander of the City Watch (so they didn't have the Jacelyn Bywater character) could end up being good since it will keep Bronn around rather than treating him as they did in the books - he pretty much disappeared and only popped up occasionally. Jerome Flynn is great as Bronn, so the more screen time the better.

Didn't catch that with the Greyscale, so yeah, she could still be in. I'll have to rewatch.

As for Stannis and Milisadre, it is also stated on a few occasions that the sleep together at night, so it can also be inferred from that as well. A lot of people missed that.

Jon being surprised I think was to get the white walkers in more. They haven't really been able to flesh them out too much in the series yet and by this time in the book the reader knows a good bit about their legend.

I like the Bronn thing as well. They don't really use Bywater in any plot lines in the books do they?

[aj_rock]

Bywater got pushed out of the commander spot eventually, but I'm guessing so will Bronn; convieniently, it wall all go down about the same time as Tyrion's downfall.

Stannis + Melisandre = had to happen, even in the books. How else do you explain WTF happens to Renly? She's got something cookin in that belly...

[shiggles]

Hmmm, anyone else think the writers of the latest episode have been reading some Terry Goodkind?

[airen123]

I don't know, but that scene with Joffrey forcing the prostitute to whip the other one---no way was that in the books? He's 14!

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I don't know, but that scene with Joffrey forcing the prostitute to whip the other one---no way was that in the books? He's 14!

Nope, it wasn't, but there's a lot of characterization to be done in the show that has to be done differently that in the written word. Hence, they have to add scenes sometimes to get details like how much of a sick little bastard he is across.

[aj_rock]

So the fact that he ordered men to kill off every bastard baby of his dad didn't already show that?

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

So the fact that he ordered men to kill off every bastard baby of his dad didn't already show that?

Of course it did, but I'm not gong to argue against showing how much of a D Bag he is, it really can't be emphasized enough.

[shiggles]

So the fact that he ordered men to kill off every bastard baby of his dad didn't already show that?

That order came from Cersei.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

That order came from Cersei.

I think in the books it did, but in the show I believe they made it come from Joff.

[aj_rock]

Yeah, it was Joff in the show.

Either way, best episode of the season thus far IMO. Hate how they messed with the meeting with Xaos and Piyat and whoever the third guy was tho

[airen123]

The third one is Mizzi Mirri lady who has on a mask, i think

[aj_rock]

Mirri Maz Dur was the one who poisoned daenys bebeh and killed her husband.