Diet question: Vegan vs. Paleo

[Gametris]

Greeting NF Rebellion!

I'm very new to fitness; at my worst I weighed 410 lbs (6'2'' 30yo) and have dropped down to 329 over the past few months with just diet and walking. I've been following NF for a while on Facebook and decided to join the forums! (Yay me!)

Anyway, I just recently watched a documentary on Netflix called Forks Over Knives which stated that there are extra risk factors to getting your protein from animal products than from whole foods that are grown. I enjoyed the film but now I am wondering how viable it would be for weight/strength training.

I've seen that Paleo is recommended by a lot of people (I read Steve's article on it as well as some other sources) and I can see the logic in it. But I've started to develop an issue with animal products because of the way the animals are cared for with crazy diets and hormone manipulation to produce more while cutting costs. And, If I add the elimination of risk factors by going Vegan than it seems worth it if I can continue to strength train. I guess that is what I get for watching Food Inc and Forks Over Knives.

I tried to find some helpful information online but most of what I've found has been flame wars between the Vegans and Paleo dieters. So if anyone has helpful research/advice they wouldn't mind sharing I would greatly appreciate it.

[Loren Wade]

Hey there! Welcome to the Rebellion!

In regards to how animals are treated, you also would need to look at Paleo's approach to this. Most Paleo proponents suggest organic, grass-fed meat. The food quality is much different than the hormone manipulated you mentioned. I can also imagine the animals are treated better.

It's funny you ask anyway, as an article recently emerged with responses from both sides of the Paleo and Vegan debate. You can read it here: http://experiencelife.com/article/paleo-vs-vegan/

Good luck in finding what's best for you.

P.S. As an anecdotal aside, I've had incredible results with Paleo. I've had very little signs of Crohn's disease, normal to low cholesterol levels, and all the energy in the world.

[js290]

Anyway, I just recently watched a documentary on Netflix called Forks Over Knives which stated that there are extra risk factors to getting your protein from animal products than from whole foods that are grown. I enjoyed the film but now I am wondering how viable it would be for weight/strength training.

You should also watch Food Inc.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/

[oystergirl]

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your success so far. It is important to note a few things when deciding on your diet. The first thing is what can you eat sustainably yourself over a long period of time to keep you full, healthy, energetic and possibly make you feel in alignment with your own personal morals. All these aspects of diet are important if you are going to find success.

As a reformed raw vegan I can tell you that I went vegan and then raw vegan (no cooked food at all) in an effort to obtain health after having lyme disease. For about 6 months I was able to maintain the diet but then, i started to have many health issues compiling on top of my physical pain (which is what lyme leaves you with) that eating this way for even one more day felt incredibly awful. I then did plenty of research and found the Weston Price Foundation and that information led me to real traditionally prepared food and finally now I eat Primal/Archevore diet similar to the Perfect health diet. You can google all those things and get plenty of information to see if any of these programs or a combination of them would be right for you.

In my case, the idea of morality and animals also extends to vegetation. I feel that eating a vegetarian program while still polluting the earth, not giving back to the soil, clear cutting forests to plant monocultures, growing foods for junk processing and poisoning the environment and farm workers with artificial chemicals and insecticides is also morally wrong. This is why I eat a seasonal, local if possible, mostly organic and all grass fed and pasture raised animal products. This makes me feel good because I know my food practices are more in alignment with the earth, even if I am eating meat, which is keeping me healthy.

I hope you find what works best for you and I wish you continued success. Understand that my story only applies to me and I know quite a few vegetarians who do very well on the eating program. Understand though, there is not one single vegan traditional culture in existence, now or ever. Humans, even those who eat a vegetarian diet, always indigenously ate some form of animal/insect products. If you do choose veganism please make sure you talk to someone about creating a balanced program for you and make sure to supplement your B-vitamins especially B-12 which is impossible to get through a vegan diet and can contribute to devastating and irreversible nerve and brain issues.

[RaeVynn]

If you are interested in going vegan for the long term, be sure to do your research!

I would highly recommend looking at the Engine 2 diet (you saw them on the movie)... since most of the originators of that style are firefighters who also do a lot of weight training, they have balanced the macros in the menus, and there is enough food to sustain heavy exercise.

I also did a stint as a raw vegan... and I was doing well, until I changed styles of raw veganism, and switched from high protein/fat to high carb (a la 80/10/10)... I swiftly went downhill! I'm still recovering from that!

Personally, I think it isn't so much about what plan you are on, as long as you eat clean - cut the processed crap, get rid of the hidden sugars and chemicals, eat more fresh food, and avoid fried (trans fatty acids) like the plague... and pay attention to what you are eating (mindful eating). When you are connected to your food, emotionally (this is in a good way), I believe that it nourishes your body, making your body able to function properly. Once it is functioning properly, it can use up/eliminate excess fat, and build muscle.

[Philociraptor]

Check out Perfect Human Diet as well. It's quite new, so probably not online yet, but sometime soon maybe... Also, Vegans and Paleos tend to agree on animal rights, for the most part. Paleos accept that death is a natural part of life, and that other organisms must die for us to live, just as other organisms will consume us when we die. A cow can feed me for a year, and organically grown vegetables result in few small animal deaths. Plowing a field of grains, the staple of most vegans? Hundreds of small animals likely die in a very inhumane way.

[Morrigainz]

The only problem I'm having with Paleo is that it's kind of expensive for me...and I'm not even eating locally grown, grass fed meat. I really really want to...but I haven't found a source and regular, horribly-treated and processed meat is expensive enough. I, too, watched Food Inc and was horrified (of course that was the intention). So...it's a work in progress

I've never toyed with veggie/vegan so I can't really say anything about that.

[Barbarossa]

Hello,

I was ovo-vegetarian, then vegan, for quite a while with no problems once I took wheat products out of the equation. As a way to save a little bit of money for an upcoming move, I've recently been adding meat back in little by little and so far I've had pretty good results (my weight loss has stalled, but I think that might have more to do with adequate fueling levels than the fuel itself). What I do is this: I still eat as close to raw-vegan as possible (fresh fruits and veggies and such from the farmer's market) and add animal proteins as needed; things like eggs in purgatory, a fish fillet on top of a salad with a balsamic reduction, chicken breast with stir fry, things like that.

So, I suppose that while I'm neither at this point, there are good lessons in both camps.

[airen123]

That is a fabulous weight loss! Go, you! And I just started primal/paleo a few days ago. I'm testing it for 30 days. I already feel so much better now that I have cut out the grains/wheat-which I seldom ate before, anyway. As regards to the diet, Vegetables-whether paleo or vegan, should be the core intake-that's my opinion.

[ScrabbleGirl]

Congratulations on your continued weight loss. I know it's a mega effort and you're doing really, really well.

Personally, I think it isn't so much about what plan you are on, as long as you eat clean - cut the processed crap, get rid of the hidden sugars and chemicals, eat more fresh food, and avoid fried (trans fatty acids) like the plague... and pay attention to what you are eating (mindful eating). When you are connected to your food, emotionally (this is in a good way), I believe that it nourishes your body, making your body able to function properly. Once it is functioning properly, it can use up/eliminate excess fat, and build muscle.

This! It's easier said than done, but I think it's the most important thing to remember. Quality over quantity.

[oystergirl]

Wonderful stuff here and I love the kind and caring conversation! I just posted an article about food tribalism that says its hard for people to discuss things like this and not get heated. I disagree if its a bunch of nerds! Thanks for proving my point!

[Oklibrarian]

I spent about 6 months as a lacto-ovo a few years back after watching Super Size Me, am now on a self-created diet that's about halfway between Tim Ferris-style slow carb and paleo. Having read a fair bit on both sides, I think one can be ethical or unethical and healthy or unhealthy in your eating habits whether or not you eat meat. An old jr. High vegetarian friend who would order "big mac, hold the meat" comes to mind. (The extra ironic bit is she would get fries, which at that time were cooked in oil that contained beef tallow). Ultimately for me it came down to how I felt on the diet, and I felt low energy, hungry, and cranky. My body runs best on protein and few/no starchy carbs, so that's what I eat. I'm not perfect about getting the 'best' meat, but I do what I can, when I can. Buying as local as you can solves many of the problems.

[Tola Seng]

Gametris, congrats on that amazing drop in body weight!

I haven't eaten land meats for over a year now (I still occasionally eat seafood). It's possible to still strength train/build muscle without meat. It's possible to have a healthy diet without meat.

Do you have specific questions?

[Georges]

I think if you take a look at the success people here have had with paleo/primal eating, and the success that, say, Scott Jurek has had with vegan eating, it's arguable that (1) not all the answers to healthy eating are in, and (2) different things may work best for different people.

If I were interested in eating vegan, I'd check out No Meat Athlete www.nomeatathlete.com, Brendan Brazier's book Thrive Foods, and the Forum here http://nerdfitness.com/community/forumdisplay.php?138-Garden-Villa-%28Vegetarian-Vegan%29 , and whatever info sources they lead me to, and then, when I felt like I knew enough about making a healthy vegan diet, I'd try it for a month to see how I felt on it.

So, I guess that's what I would suggest. (Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not a dietitian, nutritionist, or doctor.)

(edited to add: In case it matters - I doubt it does - I grew up as an omnivore, was a vegetarian for about 8 years, am currently an omnivore, and haven't tried a paleo diet solely because I don't live alone and don't think it would go over well with the mostly-vegetarian I live with.)

[alice-on]

If you are interested in movies that educate about our food and how it is produced, I would suggest watching Food Inc. I don't think there is anything wrong with being vegan, and I've seen some people do very and make great fitness gains on a vegan diet that is tailored to the needs of someone who is training, but going vegan just because of animal cruelty/hormone manipulation never seems like the best of reasons to me (no judging though). There are much bigger social and economic issues of big corporate food manufactures (meat and non meat). If you live in an area with local farmers that sell meat, that is usually the best bet as their animals are normally grass fed, free range, and cruelty free. Also, plenty of "fresh produce" at the super market has been treated with unnatural things, so if that is a concern, once again, farmers markets and locally grown and sold produce are usually the best. Most of our food has been messed with in some unnatural way

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Most of the risk factors come from the hormones and crap we pump into the animals to make them grow bigger and faster. Eliminate that and you eliminate most of those risk factors. If you can find organic, grass fed, free range sources then those things are seriously reduced if not gone all together. I was driving through mid PA this past weekend and saw all kinds of free range cattle farms. They're out there.

Other than the hormones, I've never seen the point of going vegan other than having a problem with killing animals. Having a problem with this isn't natural, we evolved to eat meat as one of our main, if not the main, food source in our diets. That's the whole idea behind paleo. If I sent you out into the woods with a knife to forage and hunt and bring back food, you would bring back mostly fats, closely followed with protein, with only a small amount of fruits and vegetables (carbs) and almost no grain as we've only been processing it into our diets for the last small portion of our evolution.

Don't wanna turn this into a "paleo yay!" thread, so I'll stop on the paleo there. For weightlifting you're going to have a difficult time getting enough protein (want around 1g per pound of lean body weight a day) if you're going vegan and not having animal protein sources. It can be done, just very much harder.

[epaleocookbooks]

Whether you decide to go paleo or vegan is really up to you. I'm a paleo dieter because I find getting enough protein from non-meat sources is just too much of pain. If your concern about eating meat is based upon what you're ingesting into your body when you eat factory-farm raised animals, then do what most paleo diets suggest and only buy grassfed beef and wild caught fish. Yes it's more expensive, but being healthy is always more cost efficient in the long run than not being healthy. Besides, there are always ways to lower costs. I'd recommend checking out a couple paleo cookbooks and finding recipes that stretch your meat budget by using tons of vegetables or combining meat, veggies and eggs. You can also look for meals that freeze well, so you're not wasting money by having fresh foods go bad before you can eat them.

If your problem with the way the animals are treated is a moral one, then go vegan, but beware that there are added costs with that choice as well. Meat contains 9 essential amino acids that the human body cannot produce. Therefore, you're going to be shelling out some cash for supplementations. Soy is a complete protein, but soy-based products can get expensive.

Honestly, you should really just do as much research on the food industry as you can, and determine exactly how you feel about it before you make a decision. Someone recommended "Food, Inc." and that's definitely a pretty powerful documentary. I also suggest reading Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle". It's about the meat-packing industry during the 20's, but unfortunately, not too much has changed since then. After both of those, I swore off meat completely for 3 months. Anytime I thought about eating it, I pictured the packing plants and it was just gross. However, since it wasn't a moral dilema, so much as a sanitation one, my love of hamburgers eventually won out. I just switched to grass-fed and organic, and I hit up the farmer's markets whenever I can.