A question on increasing weight

[Mike Pants]

Reading everyone's workout logs has got my wondering about my own routine. Acknowledging up front that it's not exactly useful to compare your own progress to someone else's, I have to wonder if I'm lifting correctly. Granted, I'm pleased with my progress so far, but it seems like after four months, I should be lifting more than I am, especially when reading posts about people benching twice their weight and I'm doing about half of mine.

My routines basically go, "Add five pounds and lift that until I can do 3 sets of 12. Then add five more and start over." Is this being too conservative? Because the workout gets rotated so often, this methodology means it could be three weeks to come around to more weight being added.

[bigm141414]

Why 12 reps? Most people who are building strength go for the low reps high weight approach. Either in a 3x5 or 5x5 variant. Hence the reason you see large jumps. 12 reps is more muscular endurance-y than strength.

It all depends on your goals though.

[Mike Pants]

See? Tiny bits of knowledge that I needed to fill in those pesky gaps.

I think I had that "Want to get lean without getting bulky" mentality somewhere in the back of my head, but after reading Steve's article today, I realize how ridiculous that is.

[bigm141414]

Yeah, diet is a big key in the whole bulky approach. Most people don't understand that. Lifting heavy does not equal getting big. Look at spezzy (aka Staci). She's tiny and can out deadlift most people I know. She even has a trophy to prove it.

For strength gains look into the Starting Strength or Stronglifts programs. Many people here have used them to great success. They are geared toward beginners and is a dead simple linear progression.

[Mike Pants]

It's those moments where you don't connect muscle gain to calorie intake that make one feel deeply stupid. Where did I think they were coming from? Osmosis?

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Yeah, backing bigm up on the lower reps to increase strength thing. 12 is a huge amount of reps if you're going for strength gains. Reps in the 12 range are usually for burning fat and getting hard and lean or for bodybuilding, getting big muscles that aren't necesarily as strong lb for lb. The difference between the two being a calorie deficit/balance vs. a calorie surplus.

[Mike Pants]

Great info, thanks to both. Or rather, thanks for the reminder. It's information I'd read before, but somehow it just didn't connect.

[Tom Kenobi]

coincidentally, steve's new NF post addresses this a little bit too.

[Mike Pants]

Yah, that's where the "but after reading Steve's article today" bit was from.

[Tom Kenobi]

woops.... derpa derpa derp...... my bad, didn't read that comment all the way through.

[Horsedog]

Hey Mike et al.,

Just saw your progression strategy above ("Add five pounds and lift that until I can do 3 sets of 12. Then add five more and start over.") and was struck by how similar this used to be to mine. About a month ago, though, I started using the Starting Strength routine (basically a 3x5 routine of the big compound lifts) and am struggling with increasing the weight on the bar every workout as well (at least, increasing it as much as the program expects).

If I understand correctly, the weight on the bar should increase each and every workout (particularly at the beginner level). These variables should not change: technique, reps per set, sets per movement, weight on the bar between sets in the same workout. This variable should increase: weight on the bar. This variable is flexible: rest time between sets. Is this right? That is, if the program calls for 3 sets of 5 reps, and I can lift 100 lbs 5 times on the first set, then I need to give myself adequate recovery time to be able to lift the same weight on set 2...and set 3. Then, next workout, I need to increase the weight on the bar and adjust the recovery time between sets, if necessary.

Just wondering if allowing for flexible recovery times between sets is something that helps people hit those workout-to-workout weight increases? Sorry Mike, not tryin' the hijack, just thought this was relevant (and I've been struggling with the same thing as you)!

[Mike Pants]

Hijack away I got the information I needed for now, so by all means.

[msuroo]

Hey Mike et al.,

Just saw your progression strategy above ("Add five pounds and lift that until I can do 3 sets of 12. Then add five more and start over.") and was struck by how similar this used to be to mine. About a month ago, though, I started using the Starting Strength routine (basically a 3x5 routine of the big compound lifts) and am struggling with increasing the weight on the bar every workout as well (at least, increasing it as much as the program expects).

If I understand correctly, the weight on the bar should increase each and every workout (particularly at the beginner level). These variables should not change: technique, reps per set, sets per movement, weight on the bar between sets in the same workout. This variable should increase: weight on the bar. This variable is flexible: rest time between sets. Is this right? That is, if the program calls for 3 sets of 5 reps, and I can lift 100 lbs 5 times on the first set, then I need to give myself adequate recovery time to be able to lift the same weight on set 2...and set 3. Then, next workout, I need to increase the weight on the bar and adjust the recovery time between sets, if necessary.

Just wondering if allowing for flexible recovery times between sets is something that helps people hit those workout-to-workout weight increases? Sorry Mike, not tryin' the hijack, just thought this was relevant (and I've been struggling with the same thing as you)!

If you need more time between sets to be able to get up all the reps, then by all means take it.

That said, you shouldn't have to increase the rest time every single time out. Make sure you are getting enough food and sleep, and you should be able to progress every time out (especially at the novice level), because your strength gains will keep up with the weight.

[Horsedog]

If you need more time between sets to be able to get up all the reps, then by all means take it.

That said, you shouldn't have to increase the rest time every single time out. Make sure you are getting enough food and sleep, and you should be able to progress every time out (especially at the novice level), because your strength gains will keep up with the weight.

Thanks! Good to have this validated. It's not that I need to increase my recovery times between sets, but often in an effort to "stick with the program" I haven't even allowed for flexible recovery times.

[msuroo]

Thanks! Good to have this validated. It's not that I need to increase my recovery times between sets, but often in an effort to "stick with the program" I haven't even allowed for flexible recovery times.

Yeah, getting the reps up is more important than holding yourself to a specific rest period. A couple lines per Rip:

A strength training program is designed to make you stronger, i.e., able to exert more force and lift more weight. Some training programs used in bodybuilding rely on the accumulated fatigue produced by short breaks between sets, and these programs specifically increase muscular endurance. Although endurance increases as a function of strength, it is not a parameter specifically targeted by our program at the novice level. You will benefit more by lifting heavier weights, through the efficient timing of sets to allow for recovery, than by trying to decrease the time between sets and thereby allowing fatigue to limit your ability to exert maximum force.

The easiest way to stop your progress between workouts is to fail to finish all the reps of all the prescribed work sets. And the easiest way to make this happen is to fail to rest long enough between work sets to allow fatigue from the previous set to dissipate before you start the next set.

[Waldo]

A strength training program is designed to make you stronger, i.e., able to exert more force and lift more weight. Some training programs used in bodybuilding rely on the accumulated fatigue produced by short breaks between sets, and these programs specifically increase muscular endurance. Although endurance increases as a function of strength, it is not a parameter specifically targeted by our program at the novice level.

This is only very minimally correct. Endurance is only partially a function of strength, there is some bleedover from strength training to strength endurance, but this isn't even close to a linear relationship.

Getting stronger will increase the amound of weight you can lift for 12 reps for example, an area where there is still a significant strength component to endurance. But if you an lift weight X 20 times, getting stronger will do pretty much nothing to help you lift weight X 25 times, no matter how much stronger you get, at that point maximal strength is a very minimal part of the equation.

This phenomenon is readily visible with something like pushups. Say you work up to doing 30 pushups then spend a few months on the bench working up your bench numbers, doing no pushups. The getting stronger gives you endurance way of thinking will have you beleive that your pushup numbers will increase because you got stronger (benching and pushups are very similar movements, gains on one will generally transfer well). In reality not doing pushups for a few months will cause your endurance to atrophy, most likely you will be able to do fewer pushups despite having greater maximal strength. I personally lost about 15 reps off my max of standard pushups as I worked up from diamond pushups to one arm pushups (doing very few standard pushups in the process). I got stronger and lost a lot of endurance in the process.

[msuroo]

This is only very minimall correct. Endurance is only partially a function of strength, there is some bleedover from strength training to strength endurance, but this isn't even close to a linear relationship.

Getting stronger will increase the amound of weight you can lift for 12 reps for example. But if you an lift weight X 20 times, getting stronger will do pretty much nothing to help you lift weight X 25 times, no matter how much stronger you get.

I think that's basically what Rip is acknowledging. That yes, there is some bleedover, but SS doesn't target endurance at all.

[Horsedog]

I think that's basically what Rip is acknowledging. That yes, there is some bleedover, but SS doesn't target endurance at all.

That's what I got out of it, too. So glad I found that friggin' book. So sad I only just found it a month ago

[chairohkey]

This is only very minimally correct. Endurance is only partially a function of strength, there is some bleedover from strength training to strength endurance, but this isn't even close to a linear relationship.

Getting stronger will increase the amound of weight you can lift for 12 reps for example, an area where there is still a significant strength component to endurance. But if you an lift weight X 20 times, getting stronger will do pretty much nothing to help you lift weight X 25 times, no matter how much stronger you get, at that point maximal strength is a very minimal part of the equation.

This phenomenon is readily visible with something like pushups. Say you work up to doing 30 pushups then spend a few months on the bench working up your bench numbers, doing no pushups. The getting stronger gives you endurance way of thinking will have you beleive that your pushup numbers will increase because you got stronger (benching and pushups are very similar movements, gains on one will generally transfer well). In reality not doing pushups for a few months will cause your endurance to atrophy, most likely you will be able to do fewer pushups despite having greater maximal strength. I personally lost about 15 reps off my max of standard pushups as I worked up from diamond pushups to one arm pushups (doing very few standard pushups in the process). I got stronger and lost a lot of endurance in the process.

I disagree. When I first started training my squat max was probably around 275lbs. After a few months I brought it up to 435lbs through a basic linear program never going over 6-7 reps in any given set. I then foolishly started a 20 rep squat program and easily cranked out 20 reps at 275lbs, my begining max, and even worked up to 315lb over 5 sessions. I think there's a little more than some bleedover.

[Waldo]

I disagree. When I first started training my squat max was probably around 275lbs. After a few months I brought it up to 435lbs through a basic linear program never going over 6-7 reps in any given set. I then foolishly started a 20 rep squat program and easily cranked out 20 reps at 275lbs, my begining max, and even worked up to 315lb over 5 sessions. I think there's a little more than some bleedover.

Squats tend to act like you are doing fewer reps than you really are for some reason though. The rep range rules tend to skew a bit for squats.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but were you not doing 20 reps at your 10RM?

However many reps you can do @ 275, improving your 1RM will do little to add reps to that.

[Pat G]

@chairohkey, your foolishness has given me some food for thought.

[chairohkey]

However many reps you can do @ 275, improving your 1RM will do little to add reps to that.

I'm not following you. In my previous post I stated that when I first started squatting last year my beginning 1RM was about 275. Then after improving my 1RM to 435lb I was able to increase the amount of reps I could do at 275lb by +19. This completely contradicts your above statement. Waldo you're a smart guy but I get the feeling you deal in too many absolutes.

[jdanger]

However many reps you can do @ 275, improving your 1RM will do little to add reps to that.

I disagree as well. There are diminishing returns after a certain point of course but strength is the fundamental capacity one builds their strength endurance within. When a person adds a reasonable percentage to their squat they will always capable of doing more reps at any given weight. Strength is the cup. The bigger the cup, the more stuff you can put in. Strength endurance, speed, power, everything.

[161803398874989]

However many reps you can do @ 275, improving your 1RM will do little to add reps to that.

Horseshit. Steven Low hit a dip with 190lbs added and without ever training for endurance, could do 50 bar dips straight.

[Horsedog]

Strength is the cup. The bigger the cup, the more stuff you can put in. Strength endurance, speed, power, everything.

This, sir, is awesome. I am stealing this quote.