The "Friend Zone"

[CaptainKronos]

I was told that this is a very supportive community, so I thought I'd share a story about my life and ask for some input.

Why does the "friend zone" exist?

This picture summarizes my thoughts:

I knew this cute girl from my class. We'd talk and hang out all the time, but when I went to ask her for a date she got really weird and gave me this big speech about how she only sees me as a friend, but then she pretty much stopped talking to me too. Now she's going out with this football team asshole who she always glared at and acted like she hated. What the hell is going on here, do I live in the twilight zone?

Why doesn't any of this make sense or work in any obvious fashion? Why does the "nice guy finish last?" Why would a girl who enjoys spending time with me turn around and date someone she barely talks to and seems to dislike? Is there some unwritten law of nature that you must act like a half evolved brute in order to attract women?

[azsf]

Being nice isnt special, its the standard. and people dont owe you something just because you were nice to them. Thats a dumb, childish attitude to have; its like a kid making a big show of doing all thr chores in front of his mum so she will give him 20$ for the movies. Being friends with someone is not buttering them up so theyll do stuff for you. Grow up.

[Kirkor]

Fact of life, unfortunately.

>We'd talk and hang out all the time, but when I went to ask her for a date

This was the issue. You were friends first then tried to jump the gap.

It's up to you to make your attraction known up front. If you want to go out with her you need to ask her first, then if she says no you have your answer. The friend zone occurs when a guy waits too long to ask a girl out, hoping she'll notice him, make the first move, thinking I'll do some baby steps then make my move, etc etc. Already too late by that point.

Don't get caught in the trap of thinking 'darn why do girls like assholes?' ... instead you need to ask yourself what a girl you are attracted to would find attractive in turn. Work on yourself first, i.e. leveling up like we talk about here on the forum ... and remember you are leveling up for YOU not for HER. As you become the best version of yourself, you will find yourself attracting more suitable partners.

[CaptainKronos]

Being nice isnt special, its the standard. and people dont owe you something just because you were nice to them. Thats a dumb, childish attitude to have; its like a kid making a big show of doing all thr chores in front of his mum so she will give him 20$ for the movies. Being friends with someone is not buttering them up so theyll do stuff for you. Grow up.

It really seems like a guy could get fast results just by emulating all of the brutish bozos out there, but I just don't want to have to do that.

[leadchipmunk]

Just because of all the pictures, I'm going to set this here...

Seriously though, I second Kirkor

Don't get caught in the trap of thinking 'darn why do girls like assholes?' ... instead you need to ask yourself what a girl you are attracted to would find attractive in turn. Work on yourself first, i.e. leveling up like we talk about here on the forum ... and remember you are leveling up for YOU not for HER. As you become the best version of yourself, you will find yourself attracting more suitable partners.

[JediJem]

First of all: I've always felt that the idea of being 'friend zoned' is a bit of a myth. I've heard guys say that once you're there, there's no way back but speaking as a girl that is definitely not my experience. Quite the opposite; I seem totally unable to get interested in anyone unless I've known them as a friend first. Most of my boyfriends started out as friends only, including some I initially was absolutely convinced I'd never be interested in that way.

Secondly: I feel really sad at the notion that the only reason a guy would hang out with a girl is if he's interested in her romantically. I also do not think that this is always true, however any man who is operating from that perspective is going to give out a rather specific vibe which isn't particularly attractive. If you can't see women as people first, potenatial mates second, you're in trouble. Plus, as I have myself experienced lately, it means that as a woman you will be rather reluctant at getting friendly with any guy in case he misinterprets your behaviour as something more. Surely we must be able to talk, smile and laugh with you guys without this beeing seen as leading someone on - however else is anyone ever going to get together with anyone??

[realbrickwall]

I'm not saying there are not people who lock people out romantically for no discernible reason (I said "people" because it's NOT JUST GIRLS WHO DO THIS). That does happen occasionally. However, you can't go blaming your romantic failures of some mystical geography of the female mind. If you ask her out, and she's not into you, then she's not into you. For whatever reason. Move on.

That girl you asked out? Probably dated the jock because he's hot and he's dangerous. Guess what: women have sex drives. Guys date girls for that exact same reason. In fact, I notice the only descriptor you gave of this girl was that she was cute. You didn't say she was smart, funny, inspiring, driven, or anything like that. Just cute.

You'll someday find women whom you can respect who respect you. But let me tell you right now: it probably won't happen in high school.

Good luck, and live well.

[Atalan]

It's not that girls like assholes.

Girls like confidence. Assholes are confident.

Next time you see a girl you like, ask her out first instead of platonically hanging out. That's showing confidence. If you are nervous about approaching her and thinking, "Why would she like me?" or some (censored) like that, then you should flip the situation around in your mind. Think of it this way: "Why should I like her? Let's go find out."

[smazzon1]

She's just not that into you. Plain and simple. You guys probably worked together as friends in her eyes. The "friend zone" concept happens with girls too. It's nothing special or unique to guys.

It sucks that you lost a friend, but don't worry about it too much.

[azsf]

It really seems like a guy could get fast results just by emulating all of the brutish bozos out there, but I just don't want to have to do that.

You're in highschool, but this attitude often prevails for a while after you graduate so i'm gonna speak to it. you are not better than the guy on the football team. being on the football team, or playing sports at all, doesn't make someone an idiot, or a brute. choosing to focus on physical achievements over academic ones does not make you a bad person. you know what makes you a bad person? when you lack the empathy to see people as people, and only think of them as objects to be won. you need to get a little empathy mate.

oh and to your original quote; the 'friendzone' is more like putting in an awesome resume, and having the company turn around and say "wow, you're an amazing plumber. seriously, your qualifications and experience are great, and anyone would be lucky to have you. but we're hiring an electrician."

[MasterRay6]

I feel you man cause im a "nice guy" too. Don't worry, there are tons of other girls out there. I third Kirkor here:

Don't get caught in the trap of thinking 'darn why do girls like assholes?' ... instead you need to ask yourself what a girl you are attracted to would find attractive in turn. Work on yourself first, i.e. leveling up like we talk about here on the forum ... and remember you are leveling up for YOU not for HER. As you become the best version of yourself, you will find yourself attracting more suitable partners.

when I was with my ex a few years back, I was fat, overweight and had a typical american diet. When we broke up, I hit the gym HARD..and I mean HARD(my pre-power lifting era though). I started leveling up and gaining experience points. It seemed like everything I did gave me experience points and another level!(kinda the opposite after a break-up huh?) Now I feel better about myself. I have more confidence than I ever did. Basically, I feel like a new person(almost. its hard to erase the feeling of your old self)

anyway after my Transformation Quest I was able to meet a girl. She is awesome. She's funny, cool, caring, driven, pretty and she actually bothered to watch Star Wars(most girls don't even bother to)

I have still yet to tell her how I feel and I will soon. Im in the Red Zone. Im gonna tell her how I feel. Its time to pound in in the fri-END ZONE.

Don't fear the friend zone. You have to muster the courage to face it if it falls upon your lap.

Nice guys always bottle up their emotions for the sake of keeping the friendship with a girl. When the girl we like starts walking away to another guy, we tend to freeze. We don't tell her how we truly feel because we don't wanna hurt anybody or create any drama and emotional distress for our girl friend. But guess what? Someone does get hurt. You get hurt. It's us that gets hurt. Saying what you feel doesn't make you a bad guy, nice guy

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” - Master Yoda

Fear = eternal suffering. The thought of "what if I told her how I felt?" is more painful than being in the friend zone. At least, for me, I believe the jump from the friend zone ladder to the dating ladder is very possible. Do or do not, there is no try.

[Scorpion1674]

As someone who's lived this, yeah. IMWHO, the friend zone really isn't that bad! I've been there lots of times! Usually, she realizes she messed up. I'm now happily married to someone who started as a friend. 1 year of friendship, 1 year of courtship, 10 years and counting of marriage. As for those who left me in the friend zone, they're still friends, and now that's where THEY will stay.

The most important thing is to be you. Improve you for you. And if they're not along for the ride, oh well. Their loss. But don't be afraid to take a chance.

Not that I've got all this figured out either, mind you, but we do what we can.

[MasterRay6]

As someone who's lived this, yeah. IMWHO, the friend zone really isn't that bad! I've been there lots of times! Usually, she realizes she messed up. I'm now happily married to someone who started as a friend. 1 year of friendship, 1 year of courtship, 10 years and counting of marriage. As for those who left me in the friend zone, they're still friends, and now that's where THEY will stay.

The most important thing is to be you. Improve you for you. And if they're not along for the ride, oh well. Their loss. But don't be afraid to take a chance.

Not that I've got all this figured out either, mind you, but we do what we can.

So true. You my friend are a prime example of an inspiration to all those afraid to take the chance. I say take it and don't be afraid. If you get friend zoned, friend zone them back lol xD

[caithnard]

There's a quote I saw on reddit once that stuck with me: "Slut: A word to vilify a woman if she says yes. Friendzone: A word to vilify women if she says no."

I guess my advice would be: try not to think of being friendzoned as a negative thing. If she actually does want to be friends, it means she does like you--she just doesn't want to date. Maybe you're not her type, maybe you came at the wrong time, who knows. And if you actually like her, it means you like talking to her, being around her, etc which is exactly what you'll do as a friend. Yeah you won't be going out, but you'll eventually move on and maybe this will develop into a strong friendship which could be far more valuable than a short-term relationship.

If she doesn't really like you and gave you the 'just friends' line to be nice, well, she could've said worse (put yourself in her shoes, there's no good way to turn somebody down and sometimes the desire to 'just be friends' is the truth). You tried (which is more than a lot of guys who complain about being friend zoned do...), hopefully you'll have better luck next time.

[Church]

Holy cow, I'm just reading back over my own post and it's a damn essay! So if you don't want to spend a bunch of time reading it I'll understand. The abridged version is that I agree with Kirkor.

And JediJem, I agree with you that the possibility of/desire for sex isn't the only reason for getting to know a girl as a friend. I have several friends who are girls, and I value them greatly. HOWEVER, in the average platatonic friendship between males and females, if she were to call him and say something like "I'm super horny, we gotta f@*#" He'd be at her place before she even got to hang up the phone. Even the Flash couldn't hope to pace him. this has to do with evolution. "I already like her. I think she's amazing and funny and smart and driven and talented and passionate about things that I care about too (usually common ground in friendships). She'd be a good mate." And if she happens to be pretty, that's just bonus points. But this happens on a subconscious level.

And now, for those who are interested, Churches Rant/Essay on a topic relevant to the thread:

In my opinion, the friend-zone does exist. But it's use is not consistant. There are some girls who put you there because you're everything they're looking for in a husband, but they're not looking for a husband yet. So they gotta keep tabs on you until they're ready to be taken care of.

But there's also a Friend-zone situation like I'm in, where you're there because neither of you knew how to progress the relationship, or just plain old dropped the ball and missed the oportunities. But I'm slowly moving in the right direction. I think. It'd be a lot easier to tell if our schedules meshed up. It's literally like The Universe intervenes in our potential relationship.

And as for women liking 'assholes'. It's not a conscious decision. I could go into the specifics of how we essentially evolved to look for certain things in a mate, which the 'Asshole' usually protrays, but I wouldn't do it justice because I'm fairly awkward with words and explainations. But I will say that I have looked extensively into this subject and I've come to a conclusion that has me on my current quest to Level Up.

Having looked into all of the tips and tricks and strategies and all the other crap that litters the internet I believe I've found the treasure amidst the garbage. You'll often see advice like:

1)"Make plans and then cancel at the last minute.",

2)"use 'negging'.",

3)"Don't call too often or you'll seem desperate.",

4)"Wear something outlandish to use as a catalyst to break the ice."

5)"Stack 'routines' into your game (things like palm reading, or fun psychological games, etc.)".

And I think I understand the psychology behind it all:

1) Makes you seem busier; something really important came up because I have a life outside of sitting in my parents basement playing MMO's or something.

2) Forces her to seek your approval. Shows that you're not afraid to possibly offend her and thereby drive her away, because you have other tings going on, all of your hopes for getting laid/having a relationship don't rest on her.

3) Again, makes it seem like you're not just sitting around waiting desperately for the tiniest shred of attantion from her, because you have hobbies and a life and shit.

4) You wear, dress, act how YOU want because you're so damn awesome that you don't have to care what other people think, THEY care what YOU think.

5) makes you seem widely knowledgable on an array of interesting topics.

All of them (are supposed to, and often do) combine to make you seem like the ultimate prize in her eyes.

So after looking at these things and thinking long and hard about it I came to a conclusion: Instead of using all these trashy tips and tricks and being disingenuous to my own personality in the interest of getting laid every now and again, why not just BECOME the type of person these things are designed to emulate?

And honestly, that's the only way to do it if you're looking for a quality girl. I know for me personally, I was unhappy with SO man things in my life, outside of my lovelife (or lack thereof), and I didn't have any hobbies or interests outside of books and the odd video game, I had no life outside of whatever crappy job I had and I lived vicariously through the shows I watched on TV. And all of this combined to make me completely worthless in a girls eyes. So I've finally begun my journey to be the best me that I can be. I'm feeling better about myself now that I workout, I even have a hobby (working out, it's not much but you gotta start somewhere). And this will lead to more, and greater life experiences and ultimately enrich my life, and make it worth sharing with someone of equal merit.

Note: I'm really sorry about the rant. I tend to get wordy and a little lecture-y about topics on which I am knowledgable and passionate. I hope it was somewhat useful or enlightening and not just the demented ramblings of a mad man. Lol

[leadchipmunk]

Church, it was a little long but worth the read, so no need for apologies. I will agree with you on 90% of the things you just said. The biggest thing I don't agree with is this:

And JediJem, I agree with you that the possibility of/desire for sex isn't the only reason for getting to know a girl as a friend. I have several friends who are girls, and I value them greatly. HOWEVER, in the average platatonic friendship between males and females, if she were to call him and say something like "I'm super horny, we gotta f@*#" He'd be at her place before she even got to hang up the phone. Even the Flash couldn't hope to pace him. this has to do with evolution. "I already like her. I think she's amazing and funny and smart and driven and talented and passionate about things that I care about too (usually common ground in friendships). She'd be a good mate." And if she happens to be pretty, that's just bonus points. But this happens on a subconscious level.

I would like to think of myself as a fairly average male, and I happen to have considerably more female friends than male, but if I got a call that said that, I can't think of a single female friend that I would agree to do that with (and to my recollection, I've basically had it happen at least once). Most of my female friends do fit in with the "I already like her. I think she's amazing and funny and smart and driven and talented and passionate about things that I care about too" crowd (they really wouldn't be my friends without at least a good bit of those) but my thought process ends there.

Now, granted you did say "in the average platonic friendship," so I may be an outlier in this regard. Though I would find it odd that it is a statistical anomaly when it is true for all of my friends.

One other comment, I don't understand the "use negging" rule. I mean, I understand what it is and how to "properly" use it, but not how it works. You say it "Forces her to seek your approval. Shows that you're not afraid to possibly offend her and thereby drive her away, because you have other tings going on, all of your hopes for getting laid/having a relationship don't rest on her." and that is well enough, but why does (the stereotypical) she want to (or feel the compulsion to) seek your approval? Shouldn't you already approve of her, and if you don't, you shouldn't be a concern of hers? Or is this just a way to play with her (once again, stereotypically) low self esteem?

[JediJem]

One other comment, I don't understand the "use negging" rule. I mean, I understand what it is and how to "properly" use it, but not how it works. You say it "Forces her to seek your approval. Shows that you're not afraid to possibly offend her and thereby drive her away, because you have other tings going on, all of your hopes for getting laid/having a relationship don't rest on her." and that is well enough, but why does (the stereotypical) she want to (or feel the compulsion to) seek your approval? Shouldn't you already approve of her, and if you don't, you shouldn't be a concern of hers? Or is this just a way to play with her (once again, stereotypically) low self esteem?

Oh Leadchipmunk, I like you so much. (That was NOT a come-on, 'k? ) I've had negging 'done' to me once (as I can recollect), and it was a bizarre experience. At the time I'd never even heard of 'dating science' and all that crap so I had no idea what was going on, but my thought process went something like this: "What the hell is he saying that for? He's obviously interested, so why on earth would he come out with something like that? Perhaps he's just really inexperienced. Or nervous. Poor guy, he's so never gonna get a girlfriend."

As far as I know, he's still single and religiously attending pick-up seminars...

[leadchipmunk]

Oh Leadchipmunk, I like you so much. (That was NOT a come-on, 'k? )

Awe... And here I was hoping to catch a catwoman of my very own...

Heehee. Just kidding, I'm cool with the friendzone. Haha. Also, I just noticed this will make no sense after you change your avatar again and people will (once again) find me creepy...

[---]

I don't have any wisdom to add, but I do just want to throw this out there...

I know a guy who was very interested in a girl, but was firmly in the friend zone. She even explicitly told him at one point that she really only liked him as a friend, after the guy's friend told her that he was interested. He, however, was certain that she'd come around, so he waited. After about a year, she realized that she really was interested, and asked him directly, "Do you want to start dating?"

That guy became my husband, and we just passed the 5-year mark on a happy marriage.

[Church]

One other comment, I don't understand the "use negging" rule. I mean, I understand what it is and how to "properly" use it, but not how it works. You say it "Forces her to seek your approval. Shows that you're not afraid to possibly offend her and thereby drive her away, because you have other tings going on, all of your hopes for getting laid/having a relationship don't rest on her." and that is well enough, but why does (the stereotypical) she want to (or feel the compulsion to) seek your approval? Shouldn't you already approve of her, and if you don't, you shouldn't be a concern of hers? Or is this just a way to play with her (once again, stereotypically) low self esteem?

From what I've read, and this only works for a certain type (pretty and vacuous) the theory is basically this:

She's stunningly beautiful, (I mean, why else would you want to go and talk to her after literally JUST seeing her from across the bar for the first time?) and as such, she's used to guys falling all over themselves to make a good impression and win her approval. The basic idea is that by 'Negging' you're NOT doing these things and it gets her wondering "what's up with this guy? Why isn't her falling all over himself to get me? I must break him!"

To my understanding, that's it in a nutshell. But like I said, my preferred method of 'running game' is to continue being genuine, but to also Level Up and hopefully find someone which whom I can share our mutual awesomeness.

[leadchipmunk]

From what I've read, and this only works for a certain type (pretty and vacuous) the theory is basically this:

She's stunningly beautiful, (I mean, why else would you want to go and talk to her after literally JUST seeing her from across the bar for the first time?) and as such, she's used to guys falling all over themselves to make a good impression and win her approval. The basic idea is that by 'Negging' you're NOT doing these things and it gets her wondering "what's up with this guy? Why isn't her falling all over himself to get me? I must break him!"

To my understanding, that's it in a nutshell. But like I said, my preferred method of 'running game' is to continue being genuine, but to also Level Up and hopefully find someone which whom I can share our mutual awesomeness.

Ok, I can kinda understand how that works. She's so used to immediately getting everyone's approval that this confuses her (not hard to do if she is so "vacuous") and she has to find out why. I've always found a better approach is to treat her like a "normy." She is no different than anyone else, her gift just tends to be in her looks (and hopefully other areas, but let's just limit it for sake of argument). I wouldn't bow down and worship someone who can play piano really well, why would I do the same for someone who (usually) didn't even have to work for their gift? She doesn't get treated how she should (same as everyone else) and this, too, intrigues her but in a more positive way than negging.

Then again, the best way is your way "continue being genuine, but to also Level Up and hopefully find someone which whom I can share our mutual awesomeness."

[dracopervicax]

Honestly, the whole concept of the friend zone makes me want to go beat my head against the wall. It makes it sound like you've been victimized because someone isn't interested in you romantically. Good grief. Yes, it sucks, but it doesn't make you a crime victim. No one is obligated to like you in any way, form or fashion, and no one has done you "wrong" by refusing to be your boy/girlfriend or by refusing to go out with you.

Think of it this way: Do you get upset (assuming you're heterosexual) when your guy friends don't want to go out on dates? Have they "friend-zoned" you, or are you just friends? Is it just that they just don't think of you that way? Or maybe they're just not attracted to you. Even better. If the situation were reversed, and this girl had asked you out but you just weren't interested. Or even some person that you don't know that well? How would you feel if they got sulky and told everyone that you friend-zoned them? Maybe you're just a person with actual preferences in partners and different preferences in friends, and, shocker, sometimes you don't want to fuck your friends.

Anyway, I know a lot of that doesn't apply to you. I just really dislike the concept of the friend zone. I've lost so many "friends" because they were just guys who wanted to fuck me and when I turned them down, turns out they weren't really my friends in the first place.

So anyway, when you express feelings for a friend, and they turn you down, you basically have one or two options:

1. You can say "okay, I value our friendship too, so I'm okay with that" and then you carry on being friends. And I mean actually be friends. You move on in your dating life, don't sigh every time s/he gets another partner (*special look*), and are there for them. You leave your feelings where they are, if you can.

2. You say "I'm really sad to hear that. I don't think we can stay friends because my feelings are too different now." And then you hurt his/her feelings, yes, but you move on with your life.

It sounds like you tried option one and either she was too young/immature to deal with the awkward situation (can't blame her. It's awkward even for adults), or you said okay let's be friends but continued in some way to express your attraction/deeper feelings for her. Naturally, this is gonna make her feel awkward and want to distance herself from you.

Instead of complaining about being friend-zoned, try and see things from her point of view. If you actually care about her as a person and still want to be her friend, then you can make things work unless she just feels too awkward. If all you were really interested in was a romantic relationship, then I'm sorry, it sucks. Live and learn, and do better next time. There will be lots and lots of next times.

[rtalencar]

Friendzone == Hasn'tSackedUpAndMadeAMove || FailMoveAndHasn'tMovedOn

Either way, it isn't the chick's fault.

For the record, I was technically friendzoned by my now wife for about a year before we hooked up. Difference is instead of whining about it to others I kept busting my a$$ pursuing her. In her wedding vows one of the things she mentioned was how much my persistence had come to mean to her. To me, that year wasn't spent in the friendzone, it was spent getting her butt to realize she was crazy about me.

Your choice: let your life become a stupid meme or get laid. I like option B better.

[MasterRay6]

In other words, suck it up and be a man. Got it

[azsf]

behold the wonders of negging, from nerd god Randall Munroe: http://xkcd.com/1027/

the weird PUA community style neg aside, the initial origin had more to do with just being different than any of the psychological bullshit. the 'neg' itself is often built around a conversation starter as well, like in that xkcd comic (albeit that's a terrible neg). the idea is to appear more interested in talking to the person than in getting them into bed. of course, you don't have to do this with a backhanded compliment, but that's the idea that everyone seems to remember

HOWEVER, in the average platatonic friendship between males and females, if she were to call him and say something like "I'm super horny, we gotta f@*#" He'd be at her place before she even got to hang up the phone.

This has happened to me a couple of times, though in more subtle ways. Like friends that you normally hang out with as part of a group, then when you go to hang out by yourselves you don't really have much in common. But you like each others company and you're both adults and hey why not. sex is fun, and unless there are romantic feelings involved it doesn't really change anything. Most single adults that i know have a few booty call numbers in their phonebook at least.