LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Polaris]

Now, as to your point regarding labels, especially the bisexual label, one major reason there is no real consensus on the label is because of the position that it take on the Kinsey Scale. With bisexuality not falling on either extreme end of the scale, it is more open to interpretation than strictly het or homo.

Ehhhhh... Kinsey Scale. Not fond of that, it's really simplistic and has received a lot of critique. I once did a Kinsey Scale test and the result I received was essentially an error message. I'm proud to say I broke the Kinsey Scale

 

I have also read posts where people use Bi as, "more than one," as opposed to strictly monosexual. Lately, I've been using the way Robyn Ochs defines bisexuality:

“I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.â€

That definition is the most widely accepted one. Either the bi means "more than one" or "same and other genders". Which imo is best because it doesn't imply biphobic crap such as that bi people aren't into non-binary folks, or that we're transphobic.

 

I can't weigh in on the pronoun issue since my language only has one singular 3rd person pronoun. But I can say, it's sometimes funny when, say, me and my friends group have to sign up for something that requires us to list gender, because usually it ends with someone saying "okay, I know it's more complicated in reality but I'm gonna sign us all as women, k?"

[zeroh13]

It's easier to think of the definitions at guidelines, rather than rules. Everyone has their own interpretations, but generally we can agree on the spirit of it. That being said, if you have any questions about the various terms we'd be more than happy to help clear things up for you.

 

I agree with the advice on the asking of pronouns. And I also default to they/them if I'm not sure. But here's something related that would be good to keep in mind. If you get someone's pronoun wrong, after they correct you please don't spend the next five (or thirty) minutes apologizing. In my experience, it starts getting embarrassing and awkward really, really fast. People make mistakes. Just make an effort to get their pronoun right from then out.

 

I think the Kinsey scale simply hasn't aged well. We're a lot more aware now of how nuanced both sexuality and gender are. But I do give Kinsey props for including asexuality in the studies (X on the scale). Unfortunately, many people don't know about that.

 

Finally, no one here is alone! I haven't been here long (only a few days), but I believe this is a place where everyone is welcome as long as they respect that it is a safe space.

[Auntie]

Thank you everyone for helping me out with info. It's easier to absorb info when it's not being bounced around like a hot potato.   

[Ahyar Dreamspark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SkwJk9KB2c

thoughts?

 

I wasn't planning on seeing it, mainly because real life has been too chaotic as of late for me to spare 2 hours to watch a movie, but hopefully this changes. I did watch the trailer and thought it was generally a good thing for trans visibility, though.

 

But then again there are people on my facebook who are angry as can be because they didn't cast a trans actor. Like, angry tho the point where comments like "If anyone I know pays money to see this I will cut them out of my life and never speak to them again" are being made. Same for the Danish Girl movie (and for the same reason). I agree that, according to this article, the About Ray director has no freaking clue about pronouns and essentially states that they got bigger name actors for financial reasons, two things that are kind of shitty. But if it helps a larger portion of society, then surely it can't be all bad?

 

We'll just have to wait and see, I guess. And hope I don't get my tires slashed if anyone finds out I saw either About Ray or The Danish Girl.

[Hit]

 

 

I agree that, according to this article, the About Ray director has no freaking clue about pronouns and essentially states that they got bigger name actors for financial reasons, two things that are kind of shitty

Is this the article you're referring to? http://i-d.vice.com/en_gb/article/about-ray-director-explains-why-she-cast-elle-fanning-as-transgender-boy

Im still kinda tied on the issue, but i guess i feel that imperfect representation is better than no representation at all. Still, when the director is saying shit like 

"She's just a girl who is being herself and is chasing the opportunity to start hormone treatment. So to actually use a trans boy was not an option because this isn't what my story is about.""

then i start to wonder where the line is between imperfect and problematic.

i feel that a lot of the uproar about casting trans people in trans roles comes from wanting to let trans people tell their own stories. not casting trans actors doesn't really say anything about any one movie, but when it happens in EVERY movie then it becomes a major issue.

[Jett]

I thiiink what the director was trying to say is that the film is about a transman who hasn't really transitioned yet? I get why they used a female actor; a transman who isn't very masculine would have been fine, too. I think they probably went with a cis actor to make it more accessible to the general public, which... I don't know how I feel about.

 

Overall, the director's comments do make me wonder if he quite understands the whole... concept of being transgender. Which makes me a little worried for the film, but the trailer make it look reasonably representative. The only way to see if it's actually a good representation is to see the movie. I'm cautiously optimistic.

[zeroh13]

Let's look on the bright side, it has to be better than Transamerica, right?

[SinnahSaint]

I use Bi instead of Pan because a lot of people describe Pan as feeling attraction to any combination of gender, presentation & biology and that it's only the persons personality that matters.... I'm a bit more shallow than that.

 

I like fem girls and butch girls and dainty boys and burly boys and IDGAF about biology(if I like the person, the parts don't matter).... but I have absolutely no sexual attraction to androgyny. The folks who lie outside the gender spectrum (or as close as possible to center) just don't turn my crank.

 

This is my personal definition and YMMV.

[Jett]

I use Bi instead of Pan because a lot of people describe Pan as feeling attraction to any combination of gender, presentation & biology and that it's only the persons personality that matters.... I'm a bit more shallow than that.

 

I like fem girls and butch girls and dainty boys and burly boys and IDGAF about biology(if I like the person, the parts don't matter).... but I have absolutely no sexual attraction to androgyny. The folks who lie outside the gender spectrum (or as close as possible to center) just don't turn my crank.

 

This is my personal definition and YMMV.

 

And I use "pan" instead of "bi" because I have a strong attraction to androgyny and presentations that lie outside the gender spectrum (though I tend to like more butch or neutral appearances more). I dislike "bi" because it suggests that there are only 2 genders, or that I'd only be attracted to the 2 "normal" genders, which isn't true. For me, it's wider than that, so I use the label that seems to more closely fit.

 

It just goes to show that all types are needed to make the world go 'round.

[Ahyar Dreamspark]

Is this the article you're referring to? http://i-d.vice.com/en_gb/article/about-ray-director-explains-why-she-cast-elle-fanning-as-transgender-boy

Im still kinda tied on the issue, but i guess i feel that imperfect representation is better than no representation at all. Still, when the director is saying shit like 

"She's just a girl who is being herself and is chasing the opportunity to start hormone treatment. So to actually use a trans boy was not an option because this isn't what my story is about.""

then i start to wonder where the line is between imperfect and problematic.

i feel that a lot of the uproar about casting trans people in trans roles comes from wanting to let trans people tell their own stories. not casting trans actors doesn't really say anything about any one movie, but when it happens in EVERY movie then it becomes a major issue.

 

Derp. That is indeed the article I was referring to. I just forgot to actually put in the link /shamesmileyface

 

And yeah, some of the director's comments made me facepalm, specifically the one you quoted. I can haz correct pronouns? In the case of The Danish Girl, I remember reading another promotional piece where they were getting Lili Elbe's pronouns all wrong also. It's like, even if the movies do turn out to be decent representations, oftentimes the promotional material will be done in a completely ignorant manner

 

 

Let's look on the bright side, it has to be better than Transamerica, right?

 

I I hadn't even heard of Transamerica. I'm assuming it's one that is best to avoid?

[Hit]

 

 

 I think they probably went with a cis actor to make it more accessible to the general public, which... I don't know how I feel about.

 

I don't the issue is ever with any one movie - its about noticing the trend and saying that trend is bad. In this case, Im not trying to say "this movie is transphobic", its more "the movie industry is often transphobic and the casting decisions in this film reflect that". 

 

I think the bechdel test is a good comparison. Like, you cant say any one movie is sexist just because it fails the bechdel test, but you can say the industry has issues with sexism when a large majority fail it. 

Trans representation is similar. Not casting a trans person in this one role cos its not the directors vision is maybe not such a big deal. But when directors never cast a trans person in any role it shows the industry has an issue with transphobia.

[Jett]

Trans representation is similar. Not casting a trans person in this one role cos its not the directors vision is maybe not such a big deal. But when directors never cast a trans person in any role it shows the industry has an issue with transphobia.

I agree. And I think that the transphobia of the industry puts peer pressure on movies like this one that might have wanted to cast an actual trans actor at some point, but decided that they'd do better "in the industry" by casting a cis actor instead. So there is definitely a problem.

[zeroh13]

I I hadn't even heard of Transamerica. I'm assuming it's one that is best to avoid?

 

It came out in 2005.

 

"A pre-operative male-to-female transsexual takes an unexpected journey when she learns that she fathered a son, now a teenage runaway hustling on the streets of New York." - IMDb

 

It's a road trip movie where (spoilers) the romantic subplot is the "gay prostitute" son crushing on his transmom (after he figures out she's a transwoman), who is too ashamed to tell him that he's her son until near the end of the movie. That plus other parts of the movie I found pretty uncomfortable to watch.

[Ojuntapu]

"The part is a girl and she is a girl who is presenting in a very ineffectual way as a boy," Dellal told Refinery 29, adding that Fanning's character is "not pretending to have a deeper voice. She's just a girl who is being herself and is chasing the opportunity to start hormone treatment. So to actually use a trans boy was not an option because this isn't what my story is about." From http://i-d.vice.com/en_gb/article/about-ray-director-explains-why-she-cast-elle-fanning-as-transgender-boy

 

Yeah, wow. Where do I start with this? I don't think the director knows what she's saying. Some basic communication with people in the trans community could have helped here! So is the character a transman or not? A transmasculine woman, who is okay being physically female, but with social or mental disphoria and who wants to start T? Someone who is a gender queer, non-binary masculine of center person who wants to be seen as 'not a woman'? A young and questioning youth trying to figure out their own complicated identity while the world is trying to fit them into neat little boxes? Pick one and communicate that. And pah-leese, watch those pronouns, girlfriend!

 

I don't pretend to have a deeper voice. I don't have perfect male presentation. About 90% of people misgender me as female, bump that up to 95% once I start talking. Still a transguy, hello! I was before I went on T, too. I think it's that 'presenting very ineffectually,' that gets me more than actually casting a cis-woman actor. Like who made you the gender police? All that said, I still might see the movie. But if I do watch it, it will be with a critical eye, not with 'oh, finally, someone gets it.' I probably won't tell family members to run out and watch it to see what I'm going through. It would sure be nice to have that move, but alas, this is not it, I suspect.

[Polaris]

I use Bi instead of Pan because a lot of people describe Pan as feeling attraction to any combination of gender, presentation & biology and that it's only the persons personality that matters.... I'm a bit more shallow than that.

 

I like fem girls and butch girls and dainty boys and burly boys and IDGAF about biology(if I like the person, the parts don't matter).... but I have absolutely no sexual attraction to androgyny. The folks who lie outside the gender spectrum (or as close as possible to center) just don't turn my crank.

 

This is my personal definition and YMMV.

I have a similar reasoning behind identifying as bi and not pan. Gender absolutely matters to me, in the sense that my taste towards men and towards women is different, both personality- and looks-wise (I have yet to meet an NB person I've been attracted to, as far as I know, because they're a statistical minority and I'm very picky to begin with, so I can't say anything about that.) I tend to joke that a man must be the perfect gentleman for me to dig, but a tough, somewhat abrasive demeanor in a woman rocks my socks. And, err, parts do matter to me but I'm not going into that in detail.

 

I have nothing new to weigh in on the movie discussion, except for the fact that there are so few roles for trans actors anyway so it's kind of a dick move not to cast one in a TRANS CHARACTER's role. Since there are rarely, if ever, characters acted by trans people whose their trans status is not central to the plot. It's the same thing as only casting male actors unless the role specifically requires a woman (like a mother, girlfriend, hot chick...)

[Latsu Swagneel]

I want to point out, as a follow-up to my earlier post, as well as other posts made on the subject of the rampant biphobia in the gay community, that, despite the denials its existence, it is an extremely real occurrence, making even the"Safe Places" can feel totally unsafe. I want to make it clear that I don't feel unsafe in any way here. In fact, this is probably the safest place I have found, outside of the specifically Bi gathering places.

I don't get why, as a generally marginalized community, we marginalize groups within our own community. We're all in this struggle together, yet we turn on our own compatriots. I have personally experienced biphobia, and it sucks.

The problem, as I see it, with the way we have been attempting to fight it is that we keep rehashing the same arguments regarding our validity as an orientation. I can understand why someone might choose a label other than bisexual. If not for the way I define my sexuality, I probably would have also chosen to call myself anything but bisexual.

If you are easily angered/hurt or are triggered by hateful/hurtful/harmful speech, I recommend staying away from the comments on the article itself. The comments in the post in Facebook in the BiNet USA group where I originally saw the article are anything but. The comments in the article itself, aside from the members of the BiNet group, which were attempts at educating a bigot, however, are hurtful to the point of angering me enough that I couldn't comment on it there.

So, with that said, here is the link. I'm purposely sharing the link to the post on Facebook, rather than the article itself for those who may not want to have to see that amount of negativity. Read at your own risk.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/44503625428?view=permalink&id=10153553831275429&ref=m_notif&notif_t=like

Sent front phone. Any mistakes are its fault.

[Hit]

I cant seem to find this persons actual study on "why are gay people even more biphobic than straights?*" but yeh those comments are pretty rank. 

 

 

 

I don't get why, as a generally marginalized community, we marginalize groups within our own community. We're all in this struggle together, yet we turn on our own compatriots.

I feel like its a solidarity issue, the same way some people go off if you even casually suggest that you don't think you were "born that way" or chose to be gay". If you muddy the water then the group will try to distance themselves from you before you damage their cause. 

Another example of this is "straight-acting-gays" who hang shit on flamboyant gay men, say 'im not proud to be gay, i just am', deride pride parades, and in general try to be the biggest sycophant to heteronormativity that they can. 

And see how quick I through those members of the community under the bus as well? 

 

 

 

I can understand why someone might choose a label other than bisexual. If not for the way I define my sexuality, I probably would have also chosen to call myself anything but bisexual.

I don't not use bisexual because im worried about biphobia, it just doesn't describe me well enough. I've never experienced biphobia in real life though, nor had anyone really question my sexuality (except for 'what, so you're into pans?'). Why would you want to call yourself anything but bisexual?

[Latsu Swagneel]

I don't not use bisexual because im worried about biphobia, it just doesn't describe me well enough. I've never experienced biphobia in real life though, nor had anyone really question my sexuality (except for 'what, so you're into pans?'). Why would you want to call yourself anything but bisexual?

It goes back to an earlier post I made, where I gave a definition of bisexual I like, aside from Robyn Ochs's use of the term of Bisexual.

Ochs's says:

 â€œI call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one sex and/or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.â€

 

I have begun to see it that way as well. For me, I am attracted to people based on their personality, not their gender identity.

To be honest, when I was first searching to figure out who I am, I had not known there was something called Pansexuality. As it was, because of my aforementioned upbringing, I thought of the LGBTQIA+ community as just "the gays," with no differentiation of the myriad of groups we have within our community. When I finally learned more, a few months after stepping into the world, I realized there was much more to our community than I had previously thought and had been led to believe.

It wasn't until months after I began to become exposed to the LGBTQ+ community that I learned that it wasn't just LGBT. But, until that point, I had been slowly learning more about Bisexuality and how much its definition varied from person to person that I came to understand that part of my definition is that it's bi as opposed to being mono.

I didn't mean to discount anyone else's experiences. I, like everyone else, can only speak from my own understanding/knowledge/experiences. Through conversation, we learn more about other people's experiences, understandings, and/or knowledge. I live for those types of interactions, because I am always seeking to better my understanding of topics. Part of the reason my job as an environmental activist is so perfect for me is that, every single day of work, I get to go to new places, meet new people, and have meaningful intellectual conversations about topics I care very deeply about.

In my opinion, to follow down this rabbit hole a bit further, the perfect debate/argument doesn't end with the same arguments that it began with. In a perfect debate/argument, the point is, rather than trying to shove your ideas down the other's throat, to help both parties to find a place where they agree, whether it be one realizing they were wrong, both people realizing they were wrong, or finding that they were both saying the same thing. An argument/debate should not involve any anger, hurt, discomfort, or negative feelings, rather, they should evoke a mutual understanding and satisfaction.

[Latsu Swagneel]

On a different note, is anybody doing anything for September 23rd, which, for those who may not know, is Celebrate Bisexuality Day?

I was, until I checked my calendar and saw that it's Yom Kippur...

Sent front phone. Any mistakes are its fault.

[Artinum]

According to Wikipedia, Yom Kippur ends at nightfall on September 23rd. So you could potentially do all the atonement stuff until dusk and then go celebrate in the evening, though I admit I know absolutely nothing about Yom Kippur beyond what the internet can tell me. It all sounds horribly complicated.

[Reluctant Amazon]

I thought that said Celebrate Bestiality Day. I'm terrible.

Sent from my LG-D321 using Tapatalk

[Jett]

I thought that said Celebrate Bestiality Day. I'm terrible.

I had to read it twice, too.

 

I'd celebrate, but I'm not sure... how?

[Latsu Swagneel]

I had to read it twice, too. [emoji14]

I'd celebrate, but I'm not sure... how?

Well...you could organize an interactive learning experience for children, all about the wonders of bestiality...

Sent front phone. Any mistakes are its fault.

[Jett]

Well...you could organize an interactive learning experience for children, all about the wonders of bestiality...

But I like not living in a federal prison.

[SjardisDead]

But I like not living in a federal prison.

 

Depends on where you want to spend this day, it is legal in Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, Cambodia, Thailand, Japan, Russia, Finland, Hungary and Romania. And I am sure you can find a group near you.

 

And for the US nerds in Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Maine, Missouri you get at max 1 year, six months in California and in Nebraska only a Maximum of 3 months in prison and $500 fine.