LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Machete]

Which is why technically, we're not supposed to be a democracy... under a democracy you'd be absolutely right, and we've evolved to that point. I would like to see us head back to a constitutional republic...

 

Regarding slavery, that's a hindsight is 20/20 thing for me, in my opinion to them slaves weren't people, they were property, much like cows are to us today. It's easy to say that they should have never let slavery happen, but it's a different time and place, and you have to look at through their eyes, instead of ours...

 

Regarding other countries, let's straighten ourselves out, we can't police the world, it's breaking us now as it is and we have enough issues here.

 

A constitutional republic is a lot like Communism: nothing more than a theoretical model; a promise of utopia that cannot be sustained. It's not even about the democratic model, it's about the social contract. People are ruled by those they allow to rule; by the ones who offer them something desirable, be it economic abundance, order, or freedom from certain death. Democracy closely resembles this principle because of the idea of strength in numbers. As they said in Gladiator, "Rome is the mob." A constitution is nothing more than written guidelines that the populace unanimously agreed to respect. I've lived in a country where I am older than the constitution. The UK doesn't even have one, and they were once [arguably] the greatest empire on earth.

 

I am using these instances as analogies to illustrate my point. Slaves were treated as something less than human (not necessarily by every single white person). Right now, gays are the "slaves". They don't have the same rights that everyone else does. An 18 year-old uneducated unemployed hick can get married whenever he chooses to in 31 states, but a gay couple cannot, no matter what their qualifications are. We are currently at a point of transition, much like the Civil War. We can choose to support the movement of "freeing the slaves", of allowing these people, whose only "fault" is being attracted to the same gender, to be afforded the opportunity based on qualification and individual merit; or we can choose to wave that Confederate flag and insist on keeping our right to treat these people as less than humans. Firing a person from your company for being gay is like firing a person for being black. You may have the legal right to do it, but it's still fucked-up.

 

And again, I am using it to illustrate a point. I am not talking about invading Nigeria, I'm talking about simply stepping up and correcting a wrong that you see, instead of just minding your business and only "policing yourself". I saw two episodes of that What Would You Do? hidden camera show. People stepped-up and defended a lesbian who was denied a wedding dress, and a transgender woman who was being openly insulted by a man. Had they chosen to only straighten themselves out and not "police the world", that discrimination, which the perpetrators technically had a legal right to practice, would have continued. "I don't agree with what is happening, so I'll just make sure I don't do it. I'll mind my business let him do his own thing."

 

 

once again I'm impressed by every word you say...I am seeing a pattern

 

Pattern?

[Bekah]

I am using these instances as analogies to illustrate my point. Slaves were treated as something less than human (not necessarily by every single white person). Right now, gays are the "slaves". They don't have the same rights that everyone else does. An 18 year-old uneducated unemployed hick can get married whenever he chooses to in 31 states, but a gay couple cannot, no matter what their qualifications are. We are currently at a point of transition, much like the Civil War. We can choose to support the movement of "freeing the slaves", of allowing these people, whose only "fault" is being attracted to the same gender, to be afforded the opportunity based on qualification and individual merit; or we can choose to wave that Confederate flag and insist on keeping our right to treat these people as less than humans. Firing a person from your company for being gay is like firing a person for being black. You may have the legal right to do it, but it's still fucked-up.

 

Had they chosen to only straighten themselves out and not "police the world", that discrimination, which the perpetrators technically had a legal right to practice, would have continued. "I don't agree with what is happening, so I'll just make sure I don't do it. I'll mind my business let him do his own thing."

 

 

 

Pattern?

 

 

Exactly. If we dont stop it, who is going to? I have experienced this in a different more visible realm in my own life. Living life as a Muslim female, who wore hijab, for nearly a decade. There was a HUGE difference in how I was treated as a "normal white woman" and as a "minority" as a Muslim woman. The only thing I can liken it to is what a black woman experiences as her everyday existence with veiled racism and discrimination. I was refused jobs twice, once I even was hired, and went so far as to fill out the W4 forms, then they just never called me to come to work. I was offered the job another time, even to the point of salary negotiation, yet never actually given the job, because the people I would work with, knew I was Muslim and said they didnt want me to work there...and none of this was ever "out in the open", not once....but is it any less wrong? No one stood up and said anything, and they made some bs excuses as to why I wasn't called, but I know firsthand from people within the agencies that it was my religion that was the problem. Its wrong to discriminate against anyone, period, no matter if its something you agree with or not. I don't agree with Christianity, or Atheism, but to deny them the right to have their beliefs just because I dont agree, is saying my rights are superior to theirs and I should feel comfortable at all costs and they are less than me, and that is NOT okay. It just isnt. I dont have to agree with what you think or feel or do or say, but I have to let you have the right to do, feel, think or say it, because one day, what if "I" am the minority? What if its my rights that aren't on top anymore? Would you fight for equality then? If heterosexuality became the abnormal preference, would you just mind your own business then? I wouldnt, and it's wrong for anyone else to either. 

And the pattern is you say well thought out things that I agree with, I am impressed, over and over and over again.

[insanity]

A constitutional republic is a lot like Communism: nothing more than a theoretical model; a promise of utopia that cannot be sustained. It's not even about the democratic model, it's about the social contract. People are ruled by those they allow to rule; by the ones who offer them something desirable, be it economic abundance, order, or freedom from certain death. Democracy closely resembles this principle because of the idea of strength in numbers. As they said in Gladiator, "Rome is the mob." A constitution is nothing more than written guidelines that the populace unanimously agreed to respect. I've lived in a country where I am older than the constitution. The UK doesn't even have one, and they were once [arguably] the greatest empire on earth.

 

I am using these instances as analogies to illustrate my point. Slaves were treated as something less than human (not necessarily by every single white person). Right now, gays are the "slaves". They don't have the same rights that everyone else does. An 18 year-old uneducated unemployed hick can get married whenever he chooses to in 31 states, but a gay couple cannot, no matter what their qualifications are. We are currently at a point of transition, much like the Civil War. We can choose to support the movement of "freeing the slaves", of allowing these people, whose only "fault" is being attracted to the same gender, to be afforded the opportunity based on qualification and individual merit; or we can choose to wave that Confederate flag and insist on keeping our right to treat these people as less than humans. Firing a person from your company for being gay is like firing a person for being black. You may have the legal right to do it, but it's still fucked-up.

 

And again, I am using it to illustrate a point. I am not talking about invading Nigeria, I'm talking about simply stepping up and correcting a wrong that you see, instead of just minding your business and only "policing yourself". I saw two episodes of that What Would You Do? hidden camera show. People stepped-up and defended a lesbian who was denied a wedding dress, and a transgender woman who was being openly insulted by a man. Had they chosen to only straighten themselves out and not "police the world", that discrimination, which the perpetrators technically had a legal right to practice, would have continued. "I don't agree with what is happening, so I'll just make sure I don't do it. I'll mind my business let him do his own thing."

I think my position is getting a bit misinterpreted, I'm not saying don't try and change it. The thing I dislike is one person FORCING another to bend to their whim, whether is be through the court system or threats, if you don't like the way a store owner treats someone else, then don't spend your money there. This idea though, of forcing someone to act in a way that goes against what they believe is what gets me, simply because... "Where does it stop?" There's also nothing that says anyone has the right to not be offended.

 

As for gay marriage, the solution to that is pretty simple in my eyes.

 

Are they both adult persons?  yes...

 

end of questions.

 

we do have this here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause

The issue there though, is that the constitution has pretty much been made useless at this point, laws have been written in ways that deny people equal protection, and that goes for practically everyone. So really we need to get the government back in line which is definitely easier said than done.

[insanity]

Stuff

You seem to have the same misinterpretation that Machete has... at no point am I saying simply stand by. I think we just need a different approach, attacking someone because they believe different from you isn't going to endear them to your cause, and will more than likely push them further away from flipping sides.

 

"I don't agree with Christianity, or Atheism, but to deny them the right to have their beliefs just because I dont agree, is saying my rights are superior to theirs and I should feel comfortable at all costs and they are less than me, and that is NOT okay. It just isnt. I dont have to agree with what you think or feel or do or say, but I have to let you have the right to do, feel, think or say it,"

 

You even reinforced my thoughts right here, I may disagree with someone's beliefs, but I have to let the believe them, my beliefs don't trump there's simply because mine are "right" at the time.

[Machete]

I think my position is getting a bit misinterpreted, I'm not saying don't try and change it. The thing I dislike is one person FORCING another to bend to their whim, whether is be through the court system or threats, if you don't like the way a store owner treats someone else, then don't spend your money there. This idea though, of forcing someone to act in a way that goes against what they believe is what gets me, simply because... "Where does it stop?" There's also nothing that says anyone has the right to not be offended.

 

As for gay marriage, the solution to that is pretty simple in my eyes.

 

Are they both adult persons?  yes...

 

end of questions.

 

we do have this here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause

The issue there though, is that the constitution has pretty much been made useless at this point, laws have been written in ways that deny people equal protection, and that goes for practically everyone. So really we need to get the government back in line which is definitely easier said than done.

 

What about in this one, where a waiter aggressively tells two cross-dressers to leave the shop? I don't think the whole "not spending money there" approach is enough with this one. I don't think anyone believes that he has the moral right to kick them out. And it is the government's job to force people to co-exist. That is the nature of the social contract. Because society in general is all about compromise. In Leviathan, Hobbes describes a government as an imposing body that has the power to enforce the rule of law and keep us beasts in line, otherwise we just end up killing each other in our state of nature. A law is something that FORCES people to bend to the collective whim of the mob, hopefully for the greater good of the populace. True, nothing prevents one from being offended by a gay person who is not ashamed of being gay. But being offended doesn't make you right; something a lot of people seem to refuse to understand. A guy could be offended that he cannot have sex with 14 year-old girls here, or how he can't beat his wife, or how he is not allowed to flog his immigrant workers (who are not citizens and therefore do not have constitutional rights). But he is forced to not do these things because doing these things is fucked-up. John Wayne Gacy may have been really offended that he was forced to take the lethal injection, but I don't think anyone objects to the government putting him down.

 

Having the right to voice an opinion also entails other people having the right to tell one to shut the hell up. Here is a good example of people abusing these rights:

[Thrillho]

Free speech is not freedom from consequences.  That's why the Internet sort of is the way it is... in a way, internet-speech IS free from consequences. 

 

And look how well that's going. 

[Bekah]

You seem to have the same misinterpretation that Machete has... at no point am I saying simply stand by. I think we just need a different approach, attacking someone because they believe different from you isn't going to endear them to your cause, and will more than likely push them further away from flipping sides.

"I don't agree with Christianity, or Atheism, but to deny them the right to have their beliefs just because I dont agree, is saying my rights are superior to theirs and I should feel comfortable at all costs and they are less than me, and that is NOT okay. It just isnt. I dont have to agree with what you think or feel or do or say, but I have to let you have the right to do, feel, think or say it,"

You even reinforced my thoughts right here, I may disagree with someone's beliefs, but I have to let the believe them, my beliefs don't trump there's simply because mine are "right" at the time.

I wasn't speaking directly to you in my post, I was just expressing my opinion. I know you aren't bigoted and think your rights trump anyone else's or you wouldn't be here in the thread in the first place, bc I know you aren't a troll. I just happen to like Machetes arguments and agree with them , Im not saying that you think the opposite of them.

[Frost of the Gloaming]

I still think we need that group hug

 

Just throwing an argument out there, if a Corporation can be considered a person and has the same rights and legal representation as a citizen, then why can't two consenting people incorporate their finances and ensure a safe future for their investments? The only difference I can see is love, because I'm pretty sure that people in the Corps are getting it on with each other.

[Syn]

You mean this one?

 

 

You're reading too much into this. Insanity is saying [...].

 

That is not the point though. The point isn't what insanity truely meant with his argument, it is that he came here to have this argument at all.

 

This thread is called "LGBTQIA safe space". In the LGBT+ community, a "safe space" is understood as a place designed for queers to come together and share their experiences, ask for and give each other advice and support, rant a little, and chat somewhere free of judgement, confrontation, and all that crap they have to deal with on a daily basis everywhere else in the world both IRL and online.

 

It is NOT a place for straight people to come in and posit that homophobia is natural, claim that they are fine with systemic discrimination in the workplace, tell queers that they don't approve of the way they're pursuing equal treatment in society, or any of that stuff. All of these are the very things that are not supposed to happen in a safe space, the very things that safe spaces are supposed to shield their members from.

 

If insanity want to have those arguments, and if people want to answer to them, that's fine, but they should take it elsewhere - because right now, what's happening here is not only derailing the thread but going against the very essence of what it is supposed to be.

 

I don't even understand why he's been allowed to keep posting here for four pages after saying in his very first post :

 

I'll admit I'm a little eh about the idea of two men, or two women together.

 

(Which, BTW, is absolutely NOT the same thing as "this is not something I personally feel like engaging in")

[Twilight]

Yeeeeah ... I'll admit to skimming over the last couple of pages because confrontations of any kind make me nauseous, but that's not ok. This is not the space for those discussions. I'm more than "a little eh" about people passing judgement on who I'm sleeping with, especially in a thread specifically for LBTQAIetc people.

[Machete]

[insanity]

Then I apologize for joining the conversation... at no point did I pass judgement on anyone or claim that discrimination was ok, either way, you win, I'm out...

[Bekah]

I still think we need that group hug

Just throwing an argument out there, if a Corporation can be considered a person and has the same rights and legal representation as a citizen, then why can't two consenting people incorporate their finances and ensure a safe future for their investments? The only difference I can see is love, because I'm pretty sure that people in the Corps are getting it on with each other.

If you alienate and isolate each group of the masses based on some irrelevant differences like race or sexuality (not that they in themselves are irrelevant, just irrelevant to their humanness) and cause them to fight and self perpetuate this division, they never band together against a common cause and fight for the rights of the masses that are being usurped by those few in power, so by hating and discriminating others we are hurting ourselves literally by allowing our collective human power to be stripped away by those who are already in power, which happens prior to every political election I've ever witnessed in America at least, it's either abortion, gay rights, Obama is A Muslim or some other nonsense only meant to detract us into camps vs eachother rather than seeing the fallacies in the arguments of the politicians and changing the system entirely.

Just my $3 on the subject in answer to why it is the way it is

[SevenofSeven]

I'm with Frost, group hug!

Together we stand, divided we fall.

[Teirin]

I'm always game for hugs.

[Avistew]

Joining the hug. Group hugs are good.

[Bekah]

Hugs are the best

[Suited hippy]

What if the proud people at Stonewall hid inside their safe space? 

 

Discussion, especially productive ones need to be held. If not here, then where? You know how you change minds, by having conversations.

 

Or we can just go back to this being a dead thread where a member of the LGBT community comes in, says "I'm one of you," then everyone says welcome, and the thread dies again till the next member wonders in.

 

I commend Insanity for speaking his opinion, which in today's day, at least in my wonderful accepting corner of the world, is seen as queer. I commend everyone in here for talking through an issue, intelligently, with not once reducing the argument to ism, to name calling, to degradation.  

 

More discussion, more opinions, more dialog, more back and forth. 

 

The LGBT world needs less isolation and more outreach. Talk one on one with those who say that things make them "a little eh" let them see that we are people, not members of an isolated group. We are people first. 

[Hit]

What up yo. Nearly two years later and this thread is still going strong - freaking impressed. Well, where were we?

 

 

Discussion, especially productive ones need to be held. If not here, then where? You know how you change minds, by having conversations.

 

This is a safe space, not debate club. Go over to the warrior boards and tell them that lifting is bad and see where that gets you. This is not the place for talking about whether or not its morally right for shop owners to kick queer people out of their stores for being queer (as if that's ever a legitimate argument to make). This is a place where queer people and their allies can chill and talk and ask questions without the people who find our bodies and our sexualities "a little eh" swinging in and telling us to just go live/shop/fuck somewhere else. 

 

 

 

What if the proud people at Stonewall hid inside their safe space?

 

Stonewall was a safe space. The cops raided it, and the queer folk inside threw bricks at them.  

 

 

 

If insanity want to have those arguments, and if people want to answer to them, that's fine, but they should take it elsewhere

 

^ this. 

[SevenofSeven]

I love this thread and really enjoy the locals and their comings and goings on.

[Thrillho]

I agree with both of them.

 

...

 

I hate my brain. 

[Suited hippy]

Hi Hitlionsoul!

 

Welcome to the thread.

[Hit]

Heya. Sorry for jumping down your throat a little there, was having a bit of a rough day.

 

On the topic of "staying in a safe space" though, has anyone else been following the casual transphobia on the men-only thread? Cos uhhh, yeh :| some choice quotes -

 

 

 

I have my doubts for girls with big hand out of instinct.

 

 

look for the Adam's apple

 

 

I was called sexist once by a lady boy because I rejected his romantic pursue because of his gender. (Uh, you're a sweet friend, but also a dude.) 

 

 

Friend: "I met a beautiful girl in Thailand". Me: "Are you sure?" 

[SevenofSeven]

I don't venture into the men thread, nothing they would post would interest me too much. I like it here and the other funny threads of which at the moment there are many!

[Machete]

Some people are afraid of the possibility of dicks being delicious.