American healthcare is soulless [More of a rant than a discussion]

[spencer_]

But to be taxed (or penalized as it was originally stated) for not purchasing something and then have the Supreme Court hold the penalty up as a tax is opening the door to something dangerous. I.E. NY's ban on the size of containers of beverages. What is next? A yearly tax on people who smoke or drink or don't eat enough broccoli?

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm completely okay with the ban and with a smoking tax... Yes, it would be your choice to smoke, but it's not my choice to inhale it as it burns in the air. In fact, a smoking tax could go toward nonsmokers who require hospitalization for second hand smoking-related cancer.

But the way it is being forced down our throat is a large part of what is making people upset.

To be fair, if our nation were better at taking care of ourselves and our country (health, finance, etc), then we wouldn't need someone to come in and force us to live with better care. I agree that it shouldn't be forced on you if you choose not to get health insurance, but I think there should be something in place that you can pay the tax to get the national health care rather than having to suffer a bunch of nonsense bills. But a lot of this is the train of thought people have.

For instance, Bloomberg saw that NYC kids weren't taking the strides they needed to keep healthy and prevent an obese adulthood, and parents weren't doing anything about it either, so to try and keep the city healthy, he put a ban on overly large sizes in public venues. It's not an outright ban on all soda either; you're free to get a refill if you want to ignore the health issue, but it's very true that people often get a larger size because "it just makes sense" based on the price, and they drink it all despite not needing it all. With the ban in place, people just get the new highest size, 16oz, which is already a marked improvement for those who didn't need the larger size and who won't get back up to pay for a refill.

This is all besides the point though. At the end of the day, health care sucks, nobody is doing the right thing about it.

[Tocho]

Health Care costs Money. Thanks to reckless government spending, America has none. In fact, we are Trillions of dollars in the hole. Basic economics 101 states that if you are Trillions of dollars in debt, you should probably not spend even more money.

I might have misunderstood you as I had just woken up, but the way you put this:

Europeans have Universal Health Care, sure. But the Europeans are also facing a debt crisis themselves. (Greece, Spain, Portugal anyone?)

Made it seem like you were (partially) blaming UHC and making it a part of the financial crisis. If this wasn't the case, then never mind and my apologies.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Health Care costs Money. Thanks to reckless government spending, America has none. In fact, we are Trillions of dollars in the hole. Basic economics 101 states that if you are Trillions of dollars in debt, you should probably not spend even more money.

This makes me want to vote for someone like Romney, a busniess man to get America back on track with the budget, but then I remember it's the republicans that tend to overspend. Something really does need to get done though.

[azsf]

This makes me want to vote for someone like Romney, a busniess man to get America back on track with the budget, but then I remember it's the republicans that tend to overspend.

Politics; there is no right answer.

Actually the beef most Americans have with Obamacare (our current UHC) is that we have to pay a tax if we choose not to buy insurance

This is how it works in Australia. As I explained before, it essentially is only billed to people without private health insurance who could afford to be on private health insurance (people like me). I could go and get basic cover right now, but i don't prioritize health insurance because our universal health care (medicare) is pretty decent. So i pay for medicare through tax instead. It is a bit of a kick in the balls when you first see that bill, but its deducted off our tax returns, so its just less money back rather than more money out. TBH id much rather see my taxes used for healthcare than some of the other things the government spends money on

I.E. NY's ban on the size of containers of beverages. What is next? A yearly tax on people who smoke or drink or don't eat enough broccoli?

The good ol' slippery slope argument. This was covered extensively in another thread recently, but i agree that the soda ban was a load of crap. i dont think he made that decision to improve anyones health. Not sure about the US, but in Australia there is a tax on cigarettes and various types of alcohol. It's pretty lucrative...

[katpower]

Yeah, I'd rather my taxes went to healthcare than warfare!

[SusieBlu]

Yeah, I'd rather my taxes went to healthcare than warfare!

Is there a difference? Current forms of healthcare programs; Medicaid and Madicare, are forms are welfare.

[katpower]

Warfare, not welfare. I'm happy to support welfare too

[azsf]

Think you may have read that a little wrong, susieblu...

edit: gah! beaten to the punch.

[SusieBlu]

Early morning posting...sorry misread that one.

[Jcannon98188]

Universal Health Care IS war!

[TheOtherScott]

The issue of UHC and a country's debt isn't necessarily related. Much of the economic crises in the world right now came within the last few years, but UHC in the rest of the developed world is decades old.

Some philosophical and even economic arguments against UHC are certainly valid, but it's not a recipe for debt in and of itself. Balancing a national budget cannot and should not be boiled down to one single expenditure.

[Lefeux]

This is all besides the point though. At the end of the day, health care sucks, nobody is doing the right thing about it.

Agreed. It needs to be reformed. I don't think Obamacare is the right way to do it. But what do I know. I am just a consumer.

[Zorch]

The only "reason" Americans are against Universal Healthcare is because it would raise taxes. That's it. It amazes me that it's illegal to drive a car without insurance, but it's totally fine to live without health insurance.

It's illegal to drive a car without liability insurance - to protect the other party if you're in a collision. You're not required to insure against the damages on your own car, unless you have a loan on it, in which case it's requried to protect the investment of the institution that issued the loan. The required insurance is basically to protect other parties in the event that you make a mistake - which is generally a case that does not apply to health insurance.

Don't get me wrong, the health insurance industry most definitely DOES suck. I took a hit on my credit rating because one 3-hour trip to the hospital that cost a couple thousand dollars resulted in 5 bills from different places, and one of those places managed to screw up my address in their system, so I couldn't pay the bill because it never made it to me - but it still went to a collection agency that damaged my credit, and the credit agencies rejected my challenge, despite the fact that I paid the bill as soon as I knew it existed. It was basically a giant screw-job by the 2 worst industries this country has to offer. I could have paid, and would have paid, had the industry actually been competent enough to get the bill to me in the first place.

[Lefeux]

It's illegal to drive a car without liability insurance - to protect the other party if you're in a collision. You're not required to insure against the damages on your own car, unless you have a loan on it, in which case it's requried to protect the investment of the institution that issued the loan. The required insurance is basically to protect other parties in the event that you make a mistake - which is generally a case that does not apply to health insurance.

Don't get me wrong, the health insurance industry most definitely DOES suck. I took a hit on my credit rating because one 3-hour trip to the hospital that cost a couple thousand dollars resulted in 5 bills from different places, and one of those places managed to screw up my address in their system, so I couldn't pay the bill because it never made it to me - but it still went to a collection agency that damaged my credit, and the credit agencies rejected my challenge, despite the fact that I paid the bill as soon as I knew it existed. It was basically a giant screw-job by the 2 worst industries this country has to offer. I could have paid, and would have paid, had the industry actually been competent enough to get the bill to me in the first place.

Agreed. Giant Dislike button. Had a similar problem when I had a car get totaled and took the dealership/gap insurance company/insurance company 3 months to figure out who was going to pay what. Hooray 60 day delinquency

[Jcannon98188]

The issue of UHC and a country's debt isn't necessarily related. Much of the economic crises in the world right now came within the last few years, but UHC in the rest of the developed world is decades old.

Some philosophical and even economic arguments against UHC are certainly valid, but it's not a recipe for debt in and of itself. Balancing a national budget cannot and should not be boiled down to one single expenditure.

I know the UHC didn't cause the debt crisis. My point is that we are trillions of dollars in debt as it stands. If we cannot even pay for what we already have, it would be immoral for us to take on even further debt.

[Zorch]

I know the UHC didn't cause the debt crisis. My point is that we are trillions of dollars in debt as it stands. If we cannot even pay for what we already have, it would be immoral for us to take on even further debt.

I think the debt problem is independent of health care - it basically amounts to our politicians not having the guts/integrity to do what's necessary, because it WILL be unpopular with voters. Spending has to be balanced with revenue - meaning to get our budget back in line there needs to be more money brought in through taxes, and/or less spent on various programs. No one wants to see their taxes go up, and no one wants to see a program that directly benefits them get cut(though plenty will eagerly sign on to a budget-slashing agenda, so long as it only cuts the money going to others).

Spending on health care isn't the problem per se - it's spending on health care without balancing the expenditure elsewhere in the budget. But neither party has the guts to do what really needs to be done at this point.

The long and short version of it is that there is no pretty, easy way out. Our leaders need to start acting like leaders and accept this, and have the fortitude to admit that the right thing to do for our country isn't necessarily the best thing for their(or their party's) job security. Unfortunately these days it's all a power game and politicians working for themselves(and their multimillionaire donors) as opposed to looking out for our country's genuine interests.