What do you believe?

[Timmy M]

 

 

 

Discuss...

[Irish Oisin]

Ireland passed a "Blasphemy Law" there a couple of years ago to great ridicule among its citizens. It was honestly the weirdest thing...nobody wanted it!! It just appeared in the news one day that the government had passed it. But nothing has ever happened with it, nobody has been prosecuted under it and I don't think anyone COULD be prosecuted under it what with freedom of expression and Ireland becoming less christian these days. I can't imagine anyone standing in court being prosecuted for saying something that someone considers blasphemous...we're not living in the dark ages anymore.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

Earworm!

Seriously though, I'm not a religious person, but I'm a little uncomfortable with the comments that imply that Catholics aren't Christians - they certainly are. Nothing wrong with thinking that your way is the right way (as long as you're not pushy about it) but don't change the definitions of major religions to suit your own purposes - that's not respectful.

That's often an issue in Christianity, sometimes complicated by the fact that there are denominations,  "Disciples of Christ" for one example (Quotes are to signify that is the formal name of the denomination, not a commentary on anything), who use the word Christian as an adjective specifically for their Denomination.  While not Catholic, I don't buy into the notion that Catholic's aren't Christian. 

[Raikas]

That's often an issue in Christianity, sometimes complicated by the fact that there are denominations,  "Disciples of Christ" for one example (Quotes are to signify that is the formal name of the denomination, not a commentary on anything), who use the word Christian as an adjective specifically for their Denomination.  While not Catholic, I don't buy into the notion that Catholic's aren't Christian. 

 

When I was teaching in India there was actually a bit in the public school English book (I was teaching at a private school, but we had copies of the public school books) that said exactly that - something along the lines of "whether you address your prayers to Lord Krishna, to Allah, to Yahweh, it is all one God".  Which is problematic for atheists, but is a nice sentiment otherwise.

 

 

That's often an issue in Christianity, sometimes complicated by the fact that there are denominations,

 

That's often an issue in Christianity, sometimes complicated by the fact that there are denominations, 

Not just Christianity - look at Sunni-Shia relations, or attitudes towards Alevi practices or the fact that Ahmadis consider themselves to be Muslim but aren't accepted as such by a lot of mainstream groups.  Once a relgion gets big enough (or old enough) it seems they all have those schisms.

[MariahSnow]

 

 

 

Discuss...

 

Criticize and ridicule are two very different things. Criticism is excellent when it's constructive, even for discussion of religion. Newton didn't say, "all objects in motion remain in motion" and it was so. It was tested, discussed, refined, tested again, applied, experimented. The only reason it still stands is because no one has found evidence to refute it. Actually, as I've recently learned, Einstein found out some things about gravity that made Newton's laws look a little silly. But we don't think Newton is a complete moron. He just didn't have all the information in front of him. It's the same with faith and religion. If you believe in something and you collect evidence throughout your life and it is logical and makes sense to you, then by all means believe it. But you have to be prepared for questions like "why" and "how do you know?" People always say, "you need to be more open-minded" But it's actually a closed, questioning, skeptical mind is better in my opinion. If you have an open mind, someone could say, "hey the sky is green" and since you have an open mind, you'll just say, "okay!" But your closed-mind will look at the sky, look around, and judge for itself that it is blue.

 

So on to ridicule. I don't think it's fair for someone to taunt and say, "look at these fools, they believe Jesus made Thomas stick his hand inside his wound, and then Jesus died and somehow came back to life a little bit later. And now they all drink his blood!! Weird!! What freaks!! And now they worship a rabbit that lays candy eggs!!" But we do it all day every day, "this muslim thinks there are going to be virgins waiting for him in heaven!? that's ridiculous!"

[PrincessHeather]

When I was teaching in India there was actually a bit in the public school English book (I was teaching at a private school, but we had copies of the public school books) that said exactly that - something along the lines of "whether you address your prayers to Lord Krishna, to Allah, to Yahweh, it is all one God".  Which is problematic for atheists, but is a nice sentiment otherwise.

 

When I was in Catechism as a teenager, they had an interesting chart showing the relationship between various religious groups. It was actually concentric circles, with Catholicism in the center, and each ring going out they had a tiny bit less in common with. So next was Protestantism, then I believe it was Judaism, then Islam, and then after that I think it listed all the major Eastern religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism, though I don't remember the order. All that to say, that anyone with faith has faith in common and aren't as different as one might think.

[Timmy M]

i mentioned in my original post that i thought the big three religions were essentially the same, for instance did you know that Jesus is a prophet in the Quran? 

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

Criticize and ridicule are two very different things. Criticism is excellent when it's constructive, even for discussion of religion. Newton didn't say, "all objects in motion remain in motion" and it was so. It was tested, discussed, refined, tested again, applied, experimented. The only reason it still stands is because no one has found evidence to refute it. Actually, as I've recently learned, Einstein found out some things about gravity that made Newton's laws look a little silly. But we don't think Newton is a complete moron. He just didn't have all the information in front of him. It's the same with faith and religion. If you believe in something and you collect evidence throughout your life and it is logical and makes sense to you, then by all means believe it. But you have to be prepared for questions like "why" and "how do you know?" People always say, "you need to be more open-minded" But it's actually a closed, questioning, skeptical mind is better in my opinion. If you have an open mind, someone could say, "hey the sky is green" and since you have an open mind, you'll just say, "okay!" But your closed-mind will look at the sky, look around, and judge for itself that it is blue.

 

So on to ridicule. I don't think it's fair for someone to taunt and say, "look at these fools, they believe Jesus made Thomas stick his hand inside his wound, and then Jesus died and somehow came back to life a little bit later. And now they all drink his blood!! Weird!! What freaks!! And now they worship a rabbit that lays candy eggs!!" But we do it all day every day, "this muslim thinks there are going to be virgins waiting for him in heaven!? that's ridiculous!"

I think this is an issue of semantics.  For me the closed minded person does not even consider looking up at the sky, whereas the open minded person might say something like "the sky is normaly blue, but sometimes dust or other atmospheric phenomena can create the apperance of different colors, so I'm going to look up at the sky and catalog what I see with all the context of my other experiences and then decide what I think." 

 

i mentioned in my original post that i thought the big three religions were essentially the same, for instance did you know that Jesus is a prophet in the Quran? 

Yes, Jesus in the Quran is "Isa," althoug the Quran and the Bible make different claims about who the man is[was] what he said and what his existence means.  As a member of one of the three Abrahammic religions, I purport they are not the same, though they share a common heritage. They each make different claims about who God is, the main problem facing humanity, and the solution for that problem.  Having said that, I can see how they would not seem too dissimilar to someone who is not a member of one of the three, even more so to someone who is a member of no religion. 

[Raikas]

i mentioned in my original post that i thought the big three religions were essentially the same, for instance did you know that Jesus is a prophet in the Quran? 

 

The Abrahamic religions have the same roots, yes - and the followers are all "people of the book".  That said, I don't know that I'd call Judaism "big" considering the number of followers is dwarfed by those of Buddhism and Hinduism, and lower than those of Sikhism as well.  Influential because Christianity and Islam sprung from its roots, but then you can argue that the Parsis/Zoroastrians can claim to the inspiration for modern monotheism and that would be fair too.

[SuperToga]

Atheist here. Go team!

[FyreFlies]

Not just Christianity - look at Sunni-Shia relations, or attitudes towards Alevi practices or the fact that Ahmadis consider themselves to be Muslim but aren't accepted as such by a lot of mainstream groups.  Once a relgion gets big enough (or old enough) it seems they all have those schisms.

 

I'm not the one who said what you quoted as me saying.. but very good point you make. Like I said, every belief has and will break off into various "sects" or denominations eventually. Only because we're an ever-evolving species - with new information, the old interpretations change and evolve. Some will come along with it while others will be ostricized and cast out as being "non-muslim (christian, jew, martian etc.).

 

Unfortunately - with the wealth of knowledge out there and the human capacity to research and learn anything in a matter of minutes has lead to confusion and eventually neglect. People are so overwhelmed with all the information, that they give up searching before they even begin.

 

Timmy - yes he is. And what's interesting is that Moses is held in very high regard in the Quran. There's more about him in the book than any other prophet - including Muhammad himself.

 

As a member of one of the three Abrahammic religions, I purport they are not the same, though they share a common heritage. They each make different claims about who God is, the main problem facing humanity, and the solution for that problem. 

Hmm interesting.

 

I don't think it's fair for someone to taunt and say, "look at these fools, they believe Jesus made Thomas stick his hand inside his wound, and then Jesus died and somehow came back to life a little bit later. And now they all drink his blood!! Weird!! What freaks!! And now they worship a rabbit that lays candy eggs!!" But we do it all day every day, "this muslim thinks there are going to be virgins waiting for him in heaven!? that's ridiculous!"

 

O_o. lol.

[MariahSnow]

I think this is an issue of semantics.  For me the closed minded person does not even consider looking up at the sky, whereas the open minded person might say something like "the sky is normaly blue, but sometimes dust or other atmospheric phenomena can create the apperance of different colors, so I'm going to look up at the sky and catalog what I see with all the context of my other experiences and then decide what I think." 

 

I think we're talking about the same thing, just what we call it is different. In my opinion, the person who says, "let me look for myself and decide what I think" is better off than someone who either doesn't consider that the sky could be green OR who blindly accepts whatever you say. The point is - question everything. And if you are satisfied with your answers, whether those answers mean believing in God, believing in nothing, believing in Bacon Chocolate Deities, then go for it! 

 

If the sky WAS green for some awesome atmospheric reason, I would be really pissed if I was like, "psshhh! you crazy!" and didn't look for myself.

[Guest kimsquared]

Generally agnostic. Specifically agnostic panendeist. Basically a "believe whatever you want as long as you don't feel the need to persecute or harm others" -ist

[Draken273]

Im atheist.
Basically my set of beliefes buts humans on par with animals. we are part of this earth, not above it. 

My general philosophy on life is, i have 1 life, you have 1 life, why the hell would i purpose do something to screw yours and possibly mine up?
 

[Artinum]

I'm an atheist, but I have an open invitation to God, Allah, Shiva, Krishna, Buddha, Satan, Xenu, Odin and any other deities out there - pop by for a cup of tea and a chat, and I'll convert. Give me enough notice and I'll even bake some shortbread.

 

So far none have taken up the offer.

[Irish Oisin]

The description of that book sounds like it will enrage feminists. I don't know a single woman who thinks like this guy thinks they think, sounds like he's stuck in the 50's

[Artinum]

I like this. Very calm and nice manner about it. I'd be willing to answer any questions you have, if it's in my range of knowledge about it! I would like to recommend a book, not just for you but for EVERYONE who is interested. It's called Wild at Heart: Finding a man's heart. I'm currently reading it and I must say, it is awesome. Check it out (:

 

Mine's somewhere in the middle of my chest. It's learnt to cope rather quickly with the demands I place on it. Clearly a good reliable model. :-)

[Irish Oisin]

I appreciate the recommendation but I'll respectfully decline, anything that brings any god into things holds little interest for me. And from the description, it sounds like it'll rub me up the wrong way.

 

If I want to read something spiritual I'll read some Eckhart Tolle, who does refer to god and jesus, but it focuses on you as a person. Or The Monk Who Sold his Ferrari, vaguely refers to god as well, but it doesn't assume to tell you any particular god is real.

 

OR I'll re-read The Four Agreements, another great book that focuses on the individual human being

[Artinum]

My father walked out when I was very small. I have no idea where he is now (or if he's still alive) and I really don't give a stuff about him. Meanwhile, I have tremendous love and respect for my mother.

[Irish Oisin]

I appreciate how civil this all is!! The Four Agreements is particularly good, and the same goes for A New Earth (Eckhart Tolle).

 

I realise it's hypocritical of me to say no to your books while recommending some myself, but I just keep Deities out of my reading...unless it's Thor, he's always in my reading list.

[FyreFlies]

The Four Agreements is an excellent book, I have it on my shelf. Haven't read it in a while though - must.. re-read.

[Irish Oisin]

I have The Mastery of Love and The Fifth Agreement too, still to be read. I have the wonderful complaint of a large stack of books to read!

[Jcannon98188]

Devout Mormon checking in. 

[Thilde]

Practicing Buddhist here.  Just read through this thread and I'm super impressed with the contributions, both spiritual and edible, that everyone is making to the discussion.    Leave it to NF Rebels to carry out a kick@$s discussion of philosophy and spirituality!

 

I was raised very (very!) fundamentalist Christian and went through a metamorphosis when I entered adulthood that took me through agnosticism and Taoism before I came home to sit under the bodhi tree and study Buddhism.  The only shadow over my experience with Buddhism is that my family, who are primarily still fundamentalist Christians, do not know.  I've considered myself a Buddhist practitioner for around 5 years now, and most of my family still do not know this about me.  We all live many States apart, so it's not like they can come to my house and see my meditation space, my Buddha statues, my books on the dharma, etc.  I finally told my youngest brother and his wife last year, and that healed a lot of the pain of practicing in the shadows, but my parents and my other brother still do not know.  That hurts me somewhat, in the deep places of my heart, but at this point I think that is how it has to be.  My youngest brother and I talked at length about me telling the rest of my family, and we both agree that my parents' worldview likely does not have the elasticity to bear news that to them will be so shocking.  The knowledge that their daughter's eternity is no longer guaranteed according to the principles of their worldview would cause them so much pain, and it could be pain that there's no way to alleviate for them once it's happened.  I don't want to cause my parents suffering, especially when there's the risk that for them the suffering might never end.

 

I would never wish to change my parents' faith.  On the rare occasions when I have discussed my spirituality with others, I always make sure to tell them that I am not an evangelical Buddhist; I have exactly zero interest in converting anyone.  I believe what I believe because it makes sense to me (I still believe in Santa Claus too, sooo...); everybody else finds their own way.

 

Also, now I want tacos and bacon for breakfast.  I blame this thread.  

[Irish Oisin]

Pray to the great space taco, and she shall deliver one to you, in 30 minutes or less.

 

Sounds good Sambie, if it works for you and you don't nag people about it then it's all good!

 

Welcome to our Mormon friend too!!