What do you believe?

[Barbarossa]

+

 

Yup, Shunryu Suzuki > Mel Weitsman > Edward Espe Brown & Gil Fronsdal.    EEB has a special place in my heart.  I really and truly admire him, and his work has filled my life with so much hope, so I consider him to be my "teacher" even though I've only met him once.  I live very rurally and there are no Soto sanghas here, so I make do with my own independent dharma study and the power of the internets.    I do read and listen to teachings from other lineages and schools as well, but I keep coming home to Soto zen.

 

That's basically the situation I found myself in, until one of Rev. Okamura's students opened a training monastery near Fayetteville, AR, a week after I moved across the country.  Still slightly frustrated by that turn of events.

 

Have you started in on Shobogenzo yet?  It's like an ancient, massive, Japanese, religious version of Finnegan's Wake, but it's worth reading for so many reasons.

[Thilde]

That's basically the situation I found myself in, until one of Rev. Okamura's students opened a training monastery near Fayetteville, AR, a week after I moved across the country.  Still slightly frustrated by that turn of events.

 

Have you started in on Shobogenzo yet?  It's like an ancient, massive, Japanese, religious version of Finnegan's Wake, but it's worth reading for so many reasons.

 

I am actually working through Genjokoan right now, via Three Commentaries...dense stuff, twists my brain into a pretzel, but worth it. 

 

Not related: you're from Fayetteville, AR??  I graduated from John Brown University in Siloam Springs.  The Chili's in Fayetteville was a favorite hangout on Friday nights.  Dickson Street Books, ftw! 

 

Edit: I don't currently live in AR.  I too moved across the country. 

[Barbarossa]

I am actually working through Genjokoan right now, via Three Commentaries...dense stuff, twists my brain into a pretzel, but worth it. 

 

Not related: you're from Fayetteville, AR??  I graduated from John Brown University in Siloam Springs.  The Chili's in Fayetteville was a favorite hangout on Friday nights.  Dickson Street Books, ftw! 

 

Edit: I don't currently live in AR.  I too moved across the country. 

 

Haha, small world.  I miss the bookstore.  I'm currently in Denver, CO.  Did you move out that way too?  If so, scary.

[Thilde]

Haha, small world.  I miss the bookstore.  I'm currently in Denver, CO.  Did you move out that way too?  If so, scary.

 

Haha nopes I moved to Maine.  Never been to CO, but it's on the bucket list.  

[Barbarossa]

Haha nopes I moved to Maine.  Never been to CO, but it's on the bucket list.  

 

Ah, cool.  Have you checked out Great River Zendo?  It's in the SFZC lineage by way of Richard Baker, and is in Maine.

[OtakuBosatsu]

  Yay!  So glad to know there are others here.

 

Soto zen is my school.    I'm definitely a lay-person so I am sure your immersion into the heart of the school is much more intense than mine, but I hear you about doctrinal doubts.  I personally have come to believe that they're everywhere, and no matter what religious pursuits I explore there are always going to be people (often powerful ones and leaders) with whom I disagree (often vehemently).  So far Soto zen feels like home...if I change enough (as people do) that it is no longer home, then I will move on. 

 

And I could not agree with you more re: not being an asshole.    For me, I just say to myself, "All I want to be is kind."  Doing all things with kindness is my ultimate spiritual goal.  It's a hard thing to strive for.  There are many times when I don't want to be kind. 

 

I'm a Soto Zen layperson too.  Glad to find a fellow bodhisattva-in-training.  I can relate with the not wanting to be kind.  But that's why it's called practice.  "Beings are numberless, I vow to save them" and all that jazz.

[Anduril]

I am curious to know, what is animism? I've never heard of it before.

This sums it up pretty well: http://animisminternational.org/principles-of-animism/

[josefk]

I'm an atheist Oisin, thankfully I was brought up in a non believing house where we were allowed to make up our own minds so went for where the evidence stacked up most. Doing the same with my 3 lads, their beliefs can't just be an extension of my beliefs or non beliefs.

 

On a different theme, great name. I was going to call my youngest Oisin but people have a problem with my eldest lads name (Ciaran) so would never stand a chance getting them to pronounce or spell Oisin correctly so went with Aidan but they still spell it wrong.

 

As you may be able to tell I'm from irish stock as well.

[Ananke86]

After reading that *clears throat* " I am an animalistic animist." In truth, I am happy to go to temples etc when taken by friends while on holiday and I will observe other people's living rites that are dictated by their beliefs, but I am honestly of the belief that deity are a human consequence. No other animal (including the monkeys) have ever had the need for gods or spiritual leaders, that is a wholly human issue; and as I am one of those people who buck the trends as much as possible and question everything (even if it's not voiced in certain company), I find it difficult that some people need to come up with alternate realities to explain where they came from and why they need to go to church/temple/mosque. 

[Irish Oisin]

I'm an atheist Oisin, thankfully I was brought up in a non believing house where we were allowed to make up our own minds so went for where the evidence stacked up most. Doing the same with my 3 lads, their beliefs can't just be an extension of my beliefs or non beliefs.

 

On a different theme, great name. I was going to call my youngest Oisin but people have a problem with my eldest lads name (Ciaran) so would never stand a chance getting them to pronounce or spell Oisin correctly so went with Aidan but they still spell it wrong.

 

As you may be able to tell I'm from irish stock as well.

 

Ah, from good stock so! Thanks, the name is starting to gain popularity nowadays which is annoying because I was the only Oisin I had heard of when growing up, but I DO like that people are embracing their roots here more.

 

Whenever I travel people have a huge problem getting my name right. The Aussies kept calling me Ocean, which was actually kinda cool "Aww wow, your parents called you Ocean?". My friend lives in Boston and his girlfriend, an American, practiced saying my name before meeting me, she had it spelled phonetically and everything. For the non Irish reading, it's pronounced Usheen. My cousin in Connecticut is called Aidan and people around there can't get it right.

 

Great to see some Zen practitioners here too, I'm loving the diversity and the openness. I completely agree with Ananke, any god is created by man, it all came down to a person "realising" that there was a god...creating a god, because they couldn't comprehend what was happening around them.

[timtitan]

Christian, and a Physicist, now transitioning from Rocket Scientist to Sparky in my career path. Let me tell you, you get some entertaining discussions about the origins of the universe in the common room when people find out you're a Christian. 

[josefk]

I spent a couple of years following a Buddhist path but found the deeper I got into it the less it was for me.

 

I'm a big believer in embracing my roots and am very proud of my Irish roots which is strange for me to say as I normally state that you can't really be proud of something that you had no influence over. I do enjoy going back to family there as there is never any problem with names, both forenames and surnames whereas in the UK I'm forever spelling things.

 

If you're still in Ireland Oisin have you ever seen Jane McNamee or heard her on the radio?

[Irish Oisin]

Nope, never heard of her, and I googled her there now and I still have no idea who she is!!

 

It's always good to embrace your roots, it gives you a reason to travel somewhere!

[josefk]

Ah no problem there Oisin, she's my cousin but it does largely depend on musical taste.

 

The travelling is good it's the leaving again that is the problem.

 

All the best.

[Timmy M]

Ah no problem there Oisin, she's my cousin but it does largely depend on musical taste.

 

The travelling is good it's the leaving again that is the problem.

 

All the best.

 

everyone's a cousin in ireland lol (or it seems so when my grandma talks about randomers around where she used to live)

[PrincessHeather]

Christian, and a Physicist, now transitioning from Rocket Scientist to Sparky in my career path. Let me tell you, you get some entertaining discussions about the origins of the universe in the common room when people find out you're a Christian. 

 

This makes me happy! I have certainly had very interesting conversations when I tell people that I believe in God but also understand and believe in scientific truths.... they do not have to be mutually exclusive, at least not to my mind.

[Artinum]

This makes me happy! I have certainly had very interesting conversations when I tell people that I believe in God but also understand and believe in scientific truths.... they do not have to be mutually exclusive, at least not to my mind.

 

This is what baffles me about creationists denying evolution. They essentially prefer their God to be an incompetent engineer that has to constantly revise his work rather than come up with a intelligent feedback system that adapts species on the fly. Rather than deny all the evidence for evolution, it would be much simpler to just adjust your position and say evolution was God's idea. Fortunately most Christians are rather more sensible than the fringe lunatics - they just happen to be more vocal.

[Raikas]

 No other animal (including the monkeys) have ever had the need for gods or spiritual leaders, that is a wholly human issue;

 

Technically, haven't there been worship-type behaviours noted in Chimpanzees and Bonobos?  Like Jane Goodall's story about the Chips who ritualistically do submissive bows to waterfalls, or (the researcher's name escapes me now) the Bonobos in the DRC who leave food scraps at a cliff?

 

Obviously that's inconclusive (it's not as though you can ask the Chimp if they're praying, after all!), but maybe it's not some wholly-human thing (unless you're one of the people who argue that the pan/homo naming distinction is incorrect, in which case I guess it's all good?).

[PrincessHeather]

This is what baffles me about creationists denying evolution. They essentially prefer their God to be an incompetent engineer that has to constantly revise his work rather than come up with a intelligent feedback system that adapts species on the fly. Rather than deny all the evidence for evolution, it would be much simpler to just adjust your position and say evolution was God's idea. Fortunately most Christians are rather more sensible than the fringe lunatics - they just happen to be more vocal.

 

I've always liked this quote from South Park:   "Can't eveolution be the answer to 'how', and not the answer to 'why'?"

[timtitan]

Personally I think that a good case can be made for creation. The thing people miss is that a) If God is all powerful, and outside of time, he could very easily have made the universe just as described in Genesis. b. ) Science and the "Age of Reason" and science is based on the fundamental belief that God created the universe, and that because he is perfect and his word never changes, that the universe has permanent logical rules that we can discover by experiment.

The interesting thing is that science is about repeatable results, without the capability to do repeatable experiments involving the "chain of life" evolutionary theory has always been in a tricky philosophical position. That an it violates several rather more tested theories, including Information Theory. Anyone ever seen an ordered system subjected to chaotic interactions become more orderly? The math is pretty interesting actually, and the closer you get to a "lifelike" model the more you start needing a greater than infinite amount of time to show that behaviour.

[Irish Oisin]

Evolution violates tested theories but creationism agrees with tested theories? What tested theories are these?

[Artinum]

The thing people miss is that a) If God is all powerful, and outside of time, he could very easily have made the universe just as described in Genesis.

 

He could. The evidence around us suggests, however, that he didn't. In any event, the account in Genesis is downright absurd (sun created after day and night, two different orders of creation, carnivorous animals created before the Fall and hence having sharp teeth and claws for no reason...) and a much more sensible creation account could be put together if this point was worth arguing.

 

b. ) Science and the "Age of Reason" and science is based on the fundamental belief that God created the universe, and that because he is perfect and his word never changes, that the universe has permanent logical rules that we can discover by experiment.

 

Not exactly. The permanent logical rules part is right, but if this wasn't the case, no system of belief or thought would work - including religion. We assume the universe is consistent because we could not make any assumptions about it otherwise. Early science did indeed start out with the belief in God, but largely as this was the default state - and science denies God's involvement for one very simple and logical reason: if God is a factor in your experiment, you can't trust any result. We must assume that God does not take a personal interest in every outcome - besides, why would he?

 

The interesting thing is that science is about repeatable results, without the capability to do repeatable experiments involving the "chain of life" evolutionary theory has always been in a tricky philosophical position. That an it violates several rather more tested theories, including Information Theory.

 

Evolutionary theory has been pretty well satisfied, actually. The main issue is the time scales involved. What we don't know, and may never know, is the route we took getting from A to B. It would be silly, however, to suggest that because I do not know the route from Birmingham to Edinburgh there is no route to follow, or that a traveller claiming to have made the trip never did.

 

Anyone ever seen an ordered system subjected to chaotic interactions become more orderly? The math is pretty interesting actually, and the closer you get to a "lifelike" model the more you start needing a greater than infinite amount of time to show that behaviour.

 

Yes, I have. Try looking up fractals (particularly the Mandebrot Set) - a simple formula, subjected to repeated chaotic interactions, which results in amazing and ordered patterns. Or then there's Langton's Ant, in which a simple computer program starts with a complete mess and eventually reveals an emergent property. Langton's ant starts building regular little "highways", something that cannot be predicted from looking at the program code.

But this is not entirely relevant, because evolutionary theory doesn't fit your requirements. If it were really just developing at random, chaotic interactions endlessly shifting and changing with no other factors, you would indeed get a complete mess. Evolution has a second, vital factor - limited resources. Not every permutation can survive; only the best adapted will succeed. The general trend is thus for efficiency - both in terms of removing unnecessary functions and in making the necessary ones more effective. The progression to higher order is inevitable.

[Irish Oisin]

*standing ovation*

[timtitan]

So nobody actually disagrees with a), in terms of b, the idea that God will not change the outcome is part of the birth of rationalism and science as I said. It's based on the premise that because God is perfect and consistent he has no reason to. Even though being outside the system he can without changing the rules.

Also, the thing we don't disagree on is that we are here. I disagree on the origins and timescales but you can't advance the argument "we are here, therefore we must have evolved" it is intellectually dishonest to propose to hold to rationalism and science then advance a faith in evolutionary theory. I do understand that without a belief in God it must seem the only possible answer and all I'm trying to say is that the idea of creation doesn't violate the observed laws of the universe because they would have been put in place by the same creator, at the same time. Setting initial conditions and then letting it run as it were.

Yes I have seen fractal sets, no they are not the same thing. However in all the cases you mention the emergent property is chosen by the experiment designer but the mathematical model and interaction equations used.

Your argument of the second factor doesn't hold water, indeed it is a problem for research as there are a number of structures quite common in the world which at several proposed stages of development would present a large disadvantage to survival. The classic example is the eye, the theory suggests development from a light sensing pit to the current structure but at multiple necessary stages along the way it would be render useless for a generation or 10. This means your light sensitive fish suddenly can't sense light or shadow, yet has a fleshy bulge just waiting to get caught on something. Hardly the competitive advantage required to propagate the genes.

In addition, the trend for efficiency does not drive the trend from lower to higher, rather the reverse, as extra structures use more energy without providing any benefit at least initially.

All I'm saying is evolution is hysterically unlikely, that's why so much time is demanded for what we see around us, and that for a Christian, a rational case can be made for creation. If you don't believe in God of cause you'd find it ridiculous.

[timtitan]

Evolution violates tested theories but creationism agrees with tested theories? What tested theories are these?

Plus I didn't say that.