What do you believe?

[Irish Oisin]

I was talking about specific cases of hypocrisy and pushiness. And we have all said that if people aren't pushy and are just nice about things, then do what you want. Don't ram it down other people's throats. Any time I sound condescending towards a religious person, it's because they've been pushy about their beliefs. I don't go around telling religious people to abandon their beliefs in my day to day life, unless they try to push their beliefs on me. If someone tried to push a belief in sentient broccoli created the world and universe, I would tell them to get lost and stop being a dick about it. 

 

Do we have any scientologists?

 

It's not my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome but when people are pushy, I won't react well to it. But I agree, lets keep things amiable

[Elder]

Can someone explain the basics of Scientology?  I have heard about it but I don't really know what it is...

[SSquirrel]

When asked I tell people I'm agnostic.  My wife is pagan and between my extended circle of friends, I think we cover the gamut of beliefs and non-belief.  I like to think there is something more than us, but I'm not gonna put too fine a point on it.  I don't believe in one-true-wayism.  I can't believe a billion Hindus are going to hell cuz they don't think Jesus was the dude heh.  I won't preach at people so long as they don't evangelize at me.

 

 

As for Scientology, they do their best ot keep things secret.  From what I have gathered, you work up various levels of tests trying to make yourself pure thru questions and such (paying a LOT of money along the way) and pretty much anyone in your life who isn't part of Scientology has to go.  If you leave, they do their best to keep you completely shunned.  The craziness about Xenu and all that is an entertaining read, I believe the wikipedia entry covers all of it.

[Artinum]

Can someone explain the basics of Scientology?  I have heard about it but I don't really know what it is...

 

Basically, Scientology is built around a series of levels. We all start at the bottom ("meat") and then, through a series of tests and courses, one can become more and more enlightened. The fundamental tenet, however, is that all these courses cost money. If you want to reach the top, you'll need to remortgage several houses and sell your children's organs.

 

There's also something about e-meters and psychiatrists being evil...

[TheOtherScott]

Christian, but with a good dose of skepticism about Christian culture.  I was raised Anglican (and within a fairly liberal Anglican group, too), so my faith has always been very heavy on the "do unto others" stuff.  I'm perpetually annoyed by Christians who are trying to legislate their own views on morality and science and I feel horrible about how Christians have treated the LGBTQ community.  But I think Jesus is right for a lot of reasons about a lot of things, and I find a lot of comfort and energy from my church community.

[KB Girl]

(posted that hilarious video)

Tim Minchin is absolutely epic. 

 

My mother +family are all muslim in one shape or form, some practice a lot, some very little. My dad's family is all christian, but my dad is as atheist as they come. And I guess I'm agnostic, as in; there is no way to know so I don't feel the need to even think about it, but I can totally see the value of living by the customs of a religion. For example; 5 prayers a day = basically 5 moments of the day to take a breather, to sort of meditate, think about things. Who can argue with that?

[Huntress]

Wow, it's so nice to see so many Christians on here who are non-dogmatic and non-judgmental. I'm a Christian, not necessarily because I can tick off all the items on the religion shopping list, but simply because I have learned the happiness of loving kindness and doing justice from that tradition. I find it difficult to associate with mainstream Christian communities though because I support equality for GLBTIQ people and women and I honestly don't think there are any churches in my area that stand for that. 

[Irish Oisin]

I think anyone, regardless of whatever labels they pin on themselves, who is against the gay community (homophobia suggests a fear, it isn't fear, it's akin to racism) is a fucking asshole. If you hide behind a religion, bigger asshole, you're bringing the good ones down. 

[Artinum]

I think anyone, regardless of whatever labels they pin on themselves, who is against the gay community (homophobia suggests a fear, it isn't fear, it's akin to racism) is a fucking asshole. If you hide behind a religion, bigger asshole, you're bringing the good ones down. 

 

Actually, I think fear is a big part of it - completely irrational, but fear all the same. Start from the premise that homosexuality is (a) abnormal and ( wrong (there really isn't anything concrete in the bible about this; it's down to personal interpretation) and you have two options - homosexuals either chose to be that way or they have some sort of disease. The former case suggests a form of proselytism - "the gays are out to brainwash your kids!" - while the latter suggests a form of contagion. In both cases the fear is not directly of the homosexual but that the homophobe may themselves "turn".

 

It's been said before that homophobes are denying their own homosexuality. This may not be true in all cases, but it does seem to pop up a lot. The more vitriolic members of the church certainly do - for them, accepting their own homosexuality would mean either giving in to Satan or admitting that they are "infected". But if they pray hard enough and loud enough, Jesus will save them... Non-religious homophobes react in a similar manner, targetting homosexuals with violence and threat as if fighting off an infestation or an invasion. Resistance is a big part of denial.

[Irish Oisin]

I do think that "homophobia" is the same as racism at this stage. Gay men and women, and trans people, are attacked every day because they just want to be allowed to exist and express themselves or their love. It's not disimilar to the black civil rights movement in America in the 50's/60's/70's. They're targeted because they're different. Using the word phobia, to me, lessens the hatred that's involved. It's putting it in the same category as agoraphobia or arachnophobia. Saying that they're afraid of gay people also suggests there's something they find dangerous about them, as you said; "infection". What do these people think LBGT people are? Plague rats?! It's that kind of rhetoric that's dangerous to society. I think a stronger word is needed. Words ARE powerful after all.

 

It is always funny to hear about some televangelist or bishop or lay-person who, for years, spoke out against gay rights and said homosexuality is a sin, and then it comes to light that they're gay and have had gay relationships for years. Only recently an archbishop/cardinal in England resigned because he was found to be gay and in gay relationships for years, while speaking out against homosexuality. It's not funny, but it's tragic in a funny way, or funny in a tragic way. As you say, resistance is a big part of denial.

 

France is making huge steps towards legalising gay marriage, so is America and Ireland is starting to take steps. What will happen to marriage if LGBT people can marry? Nothing. Not a "god" damn thing. The nay sayers say that it will ruin the institution of marriage, but straight people getting married 5 and 6 times does nothing to the institution of marriage because it's their right? Britney Spears married a guy for what, 56 hours? That vapid black hole of human existence that is Kim Kardashian was married for 72 days in what appears to be a publicity stunt and people aren't condemning that behavior?

 

 

That was quite the rant. I do think that we're all forward thinkers here, nerds have that advantage! I think a lot of people agree with my sentiments, or at least I hope they do! I just want everyone to be given the chance to do whatever they want when it comes to love (within reason, no marrying animals or marrying shoes). There's my 2 cents on that anyway

[Artinum]

Racism is indeed very similar - still basically fear, though. Look at the running themes of apartheid - keep the "unclean" race apart; don't sit near them on the bus; don't use the same water fountains. It's a fear of contagion. It doesn't make rational sense but that's the whole point - it isn't rational.

 

The fear isn't of the individuals. Sometimes people's minds employ the most incredible double-think to satisfy two conflicting views (how else can those far-right preachers condemn gay sex while hiring rent boys?) and it's quite common for a bigot to discount friends and family from their bigotry without even seeing the contradiction. Their fear is much more abstract, and this makes it very hard to expose and counter.

 

The good news is that I think it's getting better with each generation. Fifty years ago I could have been arrested for my conduct. Forty years ago I'd be diagnosed as mentally ill for being sexually attracted to other men. Thirty years ago I'd be a leper (all gay men had AIDS in the eighties, right?). Step by step, it's getting better. It won't ever be perfect - racism is on the same curve, just about half a century further down the line, and that one isn't going away any time soon either.

[Random Chic]

I consider myself a pantheist and/or mystic.  Someone who believes that there's something going on with nature than is quite literally bigger than all of us/impossible to satisfactorily explain and well, pretty magical. You could call it the: "tale that can't be told" or "song that can't be sung" and Gods are our way to try to relate ourselves to the great profound 'all that is'. The word "universe" being very appropriately; literally "one song" so the way I see it - it's about surfing the flow of that song/vibration/force that we are all part of.. even if we may relate to it by different paths.

 

Thanks for asking!  I also find it interesting to see what paths are nerds.

[AlterStephen]

Raised a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (better known as the "Mormon Church"), but my family no longer practices. I still believe, though, and would like to start going to church again.

[Irish Oisin]

Racism is indeed very similar - still basically fear, though. Look at the running themes of apartheid - keep the "unclean" race apart; don't sit near them on the bus; don't use the same water fountains. It's a fear of contagion. It doesn't make rational sense but that's the whole point - it isn't rational.

 

The fear isn't of the individuals. Sometimes people's minds employ the most incredible double-think to satisfy two conflicting views (how else can those far-right preachers condemn gay sex while hiring rent boys?) and it's quite common for a bigot to discount friends and family from their bigotry without even seeing the contradiction. Their fear is much more abstract, and this makes it very hard to expose and counter.

 

The good news is that I think it's getting better with each generation. Fifty years ago I could have been arrested for my conduct. Forty years ago I'd be diagnosed as mentally ill for being sexually attracted to other men. Thirty years ago I'd be a leper (all gay men had AIDS in the eighties, right?). Step by step, it's getting better. It won't ever be perfect - racism is on the same curve, just about half a century further down the line, and that one isn't going away any time soon either.

 

All good points, and I agree completely. The double think that those closet homosexual gay-bashers is actually pretty saddening as well, how awful must it be for them to twist their minds into justifying their behavior to themselves. I'm not saying "poor them" because they're still being assholes, but the mental gymnastics is pretty sad.

 

I'm only 27 and I think it's even improved since when I was younger, and I wish they'd just let LGBT people marry already, nothing will change and everyone will get over it!

[Irish Oisin]

Oh, and welcome to our pantheist and mormon friends!

[SSquirrel]

When my first daughter was born, we happened to be at a Catholic hospital.  My wife is Pagan and I'm agnostic.  Later the day after she was delivered (happened at 10:30 at night), a nun stopped in to see us and asked us if we minded her giving a quick prayer for our daughter.  We didn't mind at all.  To our way of thinking, prayer is putting positive energy toward whatever it is you are praying for and even if we don't believe in your god, clearly you do, so how could it hurt anything? 

[Irish Oisin]

If that was me, I'd say no. I would appreciate the sentiment but it's not how I want to raise my child. It would be like if someone said  "Can I read the ingredients to this pizza box to your child?", I would have to say "No thank you...you're weird"

[SSquirrel]

*Shrug* Not like Beryl could understand anything she was saying.  If someone wants to give me their blessing, it's their will that is driving that.  If they are putting something positive out there for my kid, I don't care.  I don't believe in Hindu (or Catholicism or LaVey Satanism, etc), but I have no problem accepting that it helps many people and gives them something to believe in.  My lack of belief won't change their life and the person asking to bless my kid probably felt she had done something good.  It came down to manners in a way for me.  I was raised in a southern family, so manners are drilled in pretty early.  If someone offers you something, especially something that takes a minute and causes no harm to anyone, you accept graciously and thank them when they are done.

[KB Girl]

When my first daughter was born, we happened to be at a Catholic hospital.  My wife is Pagan and I'm agnostic.  Later the day after she was delivered (happened at 10:30 at night), a nun stopped in to see us and asked us if we minded her giving a quick prayer for our daughter.  We didn't mind at all.  To our way of thinking, prayer is putting positive energy toward whatever it is you are praying for and even if we don't believe in your god, clearly you do, so how could it hurt anything? 

I like that, completely see your point. Positive energy is positive energy.

[Timmy M]

SSquirrel you've got this down to tee, go you!

[AlterStephen]

Oh, and welcome to our pantheist and mormon friends!

Thanks for the welcome.

[timtitan]

The odd bit is not how loving Christians can call homosexuality a sin, it is. The odd bit is a large chunk seem to forget that so is any type of sex outside the sanctity of marriage. That and Christ came to save from Judgement, not to render to world up unto judgement. I don't know of a single church worth the name that doesn't welcome everyone regardless of sexual preference. It's actually not a bad way to tell the church's apart, do they focus on your actions, or Christ's actions?

 

Telling people "Flee from Sin!" Is all very well, but if they don't believe Christ loves them regardless, it's not like they've got anywhere to go.

 

Of course being told you're intolerant and hateful for believing homosexuality is a sin doesn't help the situation.

[SSquirrel]

The odd bit is not how loving Christians can call homosexuality a sin, it is. The odd bit is a large chunk seem to forget that so is any type of sex outside the sanctity of marriage. That and Christ came to save from Judgement, not to render to world up unto judgement.

 

Of course, mixing 2 types of fabric in one outfit is also supposed to be a stonable offense.  Raped women can be married by their rapists, just pay up those 50 sheckels.  People are fantastic about focusing one one thing the Bible says and ignoring 80 other things.  All or nothing.  Of course, the Bible is written after the fact and in many cases hundreds of years so.  As someone who has spent a lot of time in church, but is not currently of the church, it has no impact on how I choose to run my life or raise my kids.  They're being taught that being gay is just something some people are.  We have friends who are gay and the kids have no issues with it.  My kids just care if you are fun to hang out with.  

[Irish Oisin]

The odd bit is not how loving Christians can call homosexuality a sin, it is. The odd bit is a large chunk seem to forget that so is any type of sex outside the sanctity of marriage. That and Christ came to save from Judgement, not to render to world up unto judgement. I don't know of a single church worth the name that doesn't welcome everyone regardless of sexual preference. It's actually not a bad way to tell the church's apart, do they focus on your actions, or Christ's actions?

 

Telling people "Flee from Sin!" Is all very well, but if they don't believe Christ loves them regardless, it's not like they've got anywhere to go.

 

Of course being told you're intolerant and hateful for believing homosexuality is a sin doesn't help the situation.

 

Can you just clarify something for me...are YOU saying that homosexuality is a sin?

[timtitan]

Pretty much why we are saved from the Law, not by it.