What price do you pay for freedom?

[Hit]

been thinking about this for a long while, and i've come to the conclusion that i am not free.

[Ataraxia]

Why do you think that, Hitlionsoul?

[Hit]

Because i am indentured to money. From student debt to food for dinner to rent to rehearsal space for my band. I require money to participate in life and hence sacrifice a huge portion of my time and my life to acquire it.

[Br0din]

Because i am indentured to money. From student debt to food for dinner to rent to rehearsal space for my band. I require money to participate in life and hence sacrifice a huge portion of my time and my life to acquire it.

 

"The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave." With this respect you aren't free, nor are we truly free because we determine as a society to have rules that we will live by.

 

I've paid my debt to society in many ways, most notable was my 3 years of vacation to various remote mountain resorts.

[Reorienter]

Give me liberty or give me death.

[Rookiebeotch]

My price of freedom: an excessive amount of intentional ignorance.

[kaelvan]

Only thing I can think of is start my own micronation and revoke my US citizenship. Then, I can have that sweet freedom I deserve.

[TheOtherScott]

My price of freedom: an excessive amount of intentional ignorance.

 

Intentional ignorance is pretty much the recipe for happiness.

[TheOtherScott]

I think living in America is awesome. The absence of Cholera in the tap water, flat roads with minimal potholes where you can go anywhere and not have to take 30 minutes to travel 8 miles, pedestrian lanes, hot running water and showers, air conditioning, and thick, tasty steaks.

 

Also, regular and sanitary garbage pickup.  I assure you, that's not something commonly found outside the G20.

[Nubbins McGee]

To the original question: Chronic pain, PTSD,  disfigurement & survivor's guilt. 

 

You're welcome.  

 

Whether or not we're truly free (anyone, anywhere) is a different conversation entirely, and one that Machete touched on well.   Of course we're not free in the sense that we can do whatever we want without reppercussion.  We're all victims of the tyranny of the majority as long as we participate in society.  The fact that in the western world you are afforded certain choices and have opportunity for social mobility is still better than a lot of parts of the world are doing.  The world will never revolve around you (general you, not anyone in particular) nor will it ever revolve around me.  There is a certain amount of conformity I agree to participate in in order to realize certain goals that are important to me.   Where my individuality is more important than a creature comfort, I choose not to conform.   Everybody has the opportunity to make the same choices.  It's all a matter of whether or not you're willing to accept the consequences, because that's not something you usually get to choose.

[RoryAverage]

Relevant

 

 

Seriously though, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance against the various stripes of people who think you're a stupid piece of crap who cannot run your own life, thus you must be constantly told what to do by your betters.

 

I'm looking at you, high-ranking dbags of every govt on the planet.

[Machete]

Seriously though, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance against the various stripes of people who think you're a stupid piece of crap who cannot run your own life, thus you must be constantly told what to do by your betters.

 

I'm looking at you, high-ranking dbags of every govt on the planet.

 

I've seen what tends to happen when there's a little too much freedom though, and it's not pretty. Like I previously said, Man's "state of nature" leads to a life that is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (Hobbes). Pretty much Thunderdome. I don't want that. I don't have enough friends to watch my back. I'd be eaten alive. Or turned into a sex slave, like Channing Tatum.

 

Honestly, I can't exactly blame the powers that be for wanting to hold our hands to guide us through everything. If you've seen enough comments on Facebook and Youtube you are aware that a certain type of people exists, and you wouldn't trust them alone with a plastic bag. And as humans, we are inherently terrible at assessing risk; that's why a lot of people fear firearms more than swimming pools or automobiles, and keep an assault rifle in the house "to keep the family safe" but don't own a functioning fire extinguisher. The elected officials--the nation's assigned babysitters, are probably not too keen on letting us play by ourselves, mostly because of the awareness that this level of stupidity exists. We, as a society, have to cater to the lowest common denominator. That's what being a nation is all about.

 

I'm sure Nubbins McGee definitely has extensive firsthand experience with a lot of these people. America's finest, who volunteered to serve their nation and fight for freedom. PVT Simple Jack, who as a toddler was probably the one repeatedly trying to jam that triangular block through the circular hole, must now be taught to engage and destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat with an automatic rifle without killing everyone else. Or worse, 2LT Pretty Boy Cherry who thinks he knows better than everyone else because he went to some fancy college, in charge of 30-some lives on a combat patrol in hostile territory. Never underestimate the level of stupidity that a human is capable of.

[jfreaksho]

This thread kinda strikes a chord with me today.  I've been debating in a criminology class the actual level of danger from cyber threats.  I'm of the opinion that cyber threats are the new terrorism is the new teenagers with guns were the new druggies were the new civil rights movement was the new communist threat was the new Nazi party was the new anarchists were the new people who drank booze.

 

I feel like the current level of fear is consistently overblown on these things in order to expand governmental power and size.  Each one of them has a huge spike in perceived threat level, which has then eventually faded.  Unfortunately, the loss of freedoms rarely seem to be rolled back.

 

You get people who are trying to get contracts or expand their departments who sell the threat as the greatest challenge we've ever faced and it's usually not even close.

[Nubbins McGee]

I'm sure Nubbins McGee definitely has extensive firsthand experience with a lot of these people. America's finest, who volunteered to serve their nation and fight for freedom. PVT Simple Jack, who as a toddler was probably the one repeatedly trying to jam that triangular block through the circular hole, must now be taught to engage and destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat with an automatic rifle without killing everyone else. Or worse, 2LT Pretty Boy Cherry who thinks he knows better than everyone else because he went to some fancy college, in charge of 30-some lives on a combat patrol in hostile territory. Never underestimate the level of stupidity that a human is capable of.

Oh my goodness, do I ever.

In principal, I love my soldiers (sailors, airmen, and Marines too) but in reality some of the flat out dumbest shit I've ever seen in my life was done by service members. And what's funnier, when you tell one of these stories to another vet, they have one that will one up you! When you tell them to a civilian, they look at you like you've grown an extra head. Like... "There is no way anyone would be THAT stupid.". Oh yes, I assure you, there is.

Also, I may have participated in some of the stupid. I will neither confirm or deny specific incidents.

[CGGator]

I enlisted.

[Machete]

I enlisted.

 

I'm sorry.

 

I feel like the current level of fear is consistently overblown on these things in order to expand governmental power and size.  Each one of them has a huge spike in perceived threat level, which has then eventually faded.  Unfortunately, the loss of freedoms rarely seem to be rolled back.

 

You get people who are trying to get contracts or expand their departments who sell the threat as the greatest challenge we've ever faced and it's usually not even close.

 

We always seem to need a bad guy. It gives us impetus and direction--something to unite for and to fight against. UBL, Hitler, Sauron, Paul Walker from She's All That. Every story we're told has a bad guy the heroes can kill in order to solve all their problems. Essentially we're kind of taught that if you throw enough bullets at a problem it will go away, and all your dreams will come true.

 

Oh my goodness, do I ever.

In principal, I love my soldiers (sailors, airmen, and Marines too) but in reality some of the flat out dumbest shit I've ever seen in my life was done by service members. And what's funnier, when you tell one of these stories to another vet, they have one that will one up you! When you tell them to a civilian, they look at you like you've grown an extra head. Like... "There is no way anyone would be THAT stupid.". Oh yes, I assure you, there is.

Also, I may have participated in some of the stupid. I will neither confirm or deny specific incidents.

 

It could be that the whole system is set up for stupidity to happen, because it's just way too common to be coincidence. Officers and Joes alike could just all be set up for failure to begin with, and it's just become part of the culture. All I know is, I myself am definitely part of a lot of those stories leaders talk about, even as an NCO. Haha

[kaelvan]

Is it me, but during every wartime, we have to treat atleast one group in our my country (US) like crap.

[Machete]

It's not you.

 

 

But to be fair, other people do it too.

 

 

It is theorized that you need to dehumanize an entire subgroup in order to be able to effectively murder their members.

[Nubbins McGee]

It is theorized that you need to dehumanize an entire subgroup in order to be able to effectively murder their members.

I would say it's well past theory.  At a bare minimum, it is a theory that has a LOT of supporting evidence.  I actually used to be a Psychological Operations Specialist (MOS 37F).  The dehumanization is but one part of influencing an otherwise law abiding and "good" person into killing another.  

[Machete]

I would say it's well past theory.  At a bare minimum, it is a theory that has a LOT of supporting evidence.  I actually used to be a Psychological Operations Specialist (MOS 37F).  The dehumanization is but one part of influencing an otherwise law abiding and "good" person into killing another.  

 

Indeed. (As a default I try to avoid being one of those "science proves me right" guys populating the internet though.) I think actually saw myself become a [selective] racist out there. I suppose I had to in order to be able to do my job. The moment we started seeing them as people instead of Haj, human nature tends to get in the way of duty. I read a fascinating book related to this, actually (aside from the ones by Grossman).

 

[kaelvan]

So how long until Muslims in this country is seen as humans again?

[Machete]

No idea. Perhaps when we find a different demographic that we can classify as 'monsters'. (That's probably why people are so desperately hoping for zombies. They are after all humans, but with all the humanity stripped away. They are literally monsters in the shape of humans.) And even then, minorities may still feel some degree of discrimination--I suppose that's just how humans are wired to be. Blacks are still caught in a vicious cycle of discrimination even though they initially really did nothing wrong. As an Asian "tunnel rat" myself I know that even though I am not explicitly told that I cannot do something, there are definitely things that are realistically out-of-reach for me, and not just because of my height. I have to put on the accent and quote mystic oriental cliches like be water, my friend before people take me seriously. We probably won't see an Asian POTUS anytime soon. Though could you imagine having a gay Japanese nerd as a candidate?

 

 

As representatives, we're only as good as the society we live in--the lowest common denominator. I don't watch much of The Walking Dead, but I imagine race is the least of their concerns, at least when zombies are attacking. That's what 9/11 did for us, conspiracy theory or not.

[TheOtherScott]

We always seem to need a bad guy. It gives us impetus and direction--something to unite for and to fight against. UBL, Hitler, Sauron, Paul Walker from She's All That. Every story we're told has a bad guy the heroes can kill in order to solve all their problems.

 

I love the part in She's All That where Freddie Prinze Jr. beats Paul Walker to death and then slow-dances with Rachel Leigh Cook.

[Machete]

I love the part in She's All That where Freddie Prinze Jr. beats Paul Walker to death and then slow-dances with Rachel Leigh Cook.

 

Hahaha.

 

Rachel Leigh Cook was giving me boners before I even knew what to do with them.

 

[Machete]

 

Another price we pay for freedom that I just found out about. Not Lil' Wayne (though he is no doubt included) but the fact that there is currently nothing illegal about what he was doing, intentional or not. The First Amendment apparently protects actions like this.