Reaching Strength Limits On A Cal Deficit

[Lachy]

Like many people on these forums, I've been trying to loose some fat while maintaining as much muscle as possible, and in order to do so I've been eating a slight caloric deficit, making an effort to keep protien levels up, and performing strength training. But I think I'm reaching an ineveitable point in progression which I don't think has been discussed much, and I'd like the hive mind's opinions and suggestions please.

I've been following a strength program (SL5x5) for about 2 months now. In that time I've certainly gotten stronger. And durring this time I've also lost a few kilos (I was too lazy to do measurments and calculate my BF% at the start, sorry). My understanding is that by eating at a deficit while I will be able to get stronger, I will be building very little new muscle. So at some point I'm going to max out on what my current muscle mass is capable of and not get any stronger, which is where I think I'm now am.

Most of my lifts are stalled out, a deload and re-progression is easy, but when I build up to my old best again, it becomes a grind to get even one more rep across the whole range of sets, some times I even loose reps, then it's deload time again. My rest time has blown out so that I'm resting 3 - 5 minutes between every set, this makes for a long workout!

So, what to do? I want to keep the strength training, but without more food to build more muscle I don't see much progress being made. Will I still benefit? I am still focused on fat loss, at ~19%BF now, want that down closer to that infamous 10%, but I'd be happy <15%.

Option 1: Grind away, take the 3 - 5 minute rests, go through my deloads as needed and keep slogging away at max.

Option 2: Deload weight to a point I can hit 5x5 with only 90 seconds rest, this will keep the intensity of the workout up, as well as my heart rate, my thinking is the should help with fat burning (but what do I know?)

Option 3: Just eat! Get the gains then cut again.

Option 4: The NF Hive Mind's theory.

I'm leaning towards Option 2, and it's what I've been doing with my squats lately.

What do you guys think? Anyone else been at the stage, what did you do? Anyone else at this stage and also floundering?

[161803398874989]

If you want to progress, you'll probably have to eat more.

[Corbab]

You can't progress forever on a calorie deficit, so I'd second the suggestion to eat more. As you build more lean muscle mass, your BMR (how many calories you burn at rest) goes up, which will speed your fat loss. Still, it's a long game, and you might gain some fat back on initially when you up your calorie intake. That being said, I eat around 3000 calories a day and I've made some decent strength gains while maintaining my weight and 10% bf.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I think I'm in the same boat Lachy. Ever since the beginning of the year when I started the deficit again, my progression has slowed to a snail's pace. I'm personally ok with it because I know I'm keeping most of my muscle mass while losing fat instead of losing both. I'm going to try to progress, but if it doesn't happen, no big deal. When I get down to my 15% body fat goal (should be around 225lb) and start eating at a surplus again, it'll resume.

One thing I am trying now is to calorie cycle to battle this whole thing. I eat at a 500 kcal average daily deficit, but what I'm doing now is trying to eat around maintenance on lifting days, especially the meals right after, and eat at a larger deficit on non-lifting days and average it all out to be around a 3500 kcal deficit on the week. We'll see how it goes.

I'd say do a combination of options 1 and 2, this is what I'm starting to do. Keep slogging away and trying for 5x5 and try to increase. If you miss reps, eventually you're supposed to go to 3x5. What I am goign to do at that point (starting it this week with OHP) is do the 3x5 at my working weight, then drop about 10% off of that and do 2 more sets with higher reps. That way, you're getting the 3x5 working sets in, but still getting the higher volume and intensity.

[Waldo]

It might be worth it to completely change your program for a while. Everybody will eventually stall on every program. You can't just ride SL out to infinite strength. It is a beginning strength program.

Even though I'm doing something different I think that my gains are starting to slow; In a couple weeks (after I take a rest week) I'm going to switch over to doing just enough low rep strength stuff to maintain (1-2 sets once a week) and instead focus on strength endurance via high rep circuit training (I'll probably do some crossfit WOD's) and do a lot more plyometric (explosive) movements. I'm not going to make this a permanent switch, just do something different for 6-10 weeks to work my weaknesses, which in the case of lack of strength endurance is extreme.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

It might be worth it to completely change your program for a while. Everybody will eventually stall on every program. You can't just ride SL out to infinite strength. It is a beginning strength program.

Once I'm done with my running after my race in 2 months, I think I'm going to split stronglifts into an everyday thing, but not do all the workouts each day. Thinking of something like:

A: Squats

B: Bench and Row

C: Squats

D: OHP and Deadlifts

Then afterward do the WOD from one of the Crossfit sites. This would be 4 workouts a week and the other days would be rest days or running days, or do whatever the hell I want days as long as I'm doing something active.

[scotticus]

Once I'm done with my running after my race in 2 months, I think I'm going to split stronglifts into an everyday thing, but not do all the workouts each day. Thinking of something like:

A: Squats

B: Bench and Row

C: Squats

D: OHP and Deadlifts

Then afterward do the WOD from one of the Crossfit sites. This would be 4 workouts a week and the other days would be rest days or running days, or do whatever the hell I want days as long as I'm doing something active.

I did pretty much this exact thing.

Monday: Squats

Wednesday: Bench Press and Rows OR OHP + shoulder assitance exercises (alternate weeks)

Friday: Deadlifts and Chins/Pullups

I'm not sticking to a strict 5x5 though. I've added some extra volume in backoff sets, etc. As a result, I'm getting better quality work on each exercise. By Wednesday nights, I'm approaching full recovery from Monday's squats...

In terms of whether to eat or cut, I've seen advice in a few different places (lift-run-bang, CnP, various IF places, a brief chat with Andy Morgan) to suggest that you'll want to get down to below 15% before you work on bulking. The reason for this is that when you bulk, you gain both muscle and fat. If you start out with too much fat on you, then you have to cut for a longer period of time, which increases the chances that you'll lose some or all of that precious muscle you gained.

I was in pretty much exactly the same place as you about 6 months ago (20%bf, give or take). I did a foolishly aggressive cut down to about 11-12% (without really knowing wtf I was doing) and really struggled with my lifting for a while. Duh. Then I started REALLY eating, and significant strength gains started happening pretty much. I'm probably somewhere between 13 and 15% bf right now, but I know that I've packed on some muscle and I won't have too much dieting to do to get back within striking distance of the elusive 10%.

In short, I'd probably be patient with the lifiting for now, drop a bit more weight and then do a good bulk with lots of hard lifting and a tonne of good food.

[Waldo]

Once I'm done with my running after my race in 2 months, I think I'm going to split stronglifts into an everyday thing, but not do all the workouts each day. Thinking of something like:

A: Squats

B: Bench and Row

C: Squats

D: OHP and Deadlifts

Then afterward do the WOD from one of the Crossfit sites. This would be 4 workouts a week and the other days would be rest days or running days, or do whatever the hell I want days as long as I'm doing something active.

Have you checked your strength endurance recently? While I haven't checked my pushup max in a month, it seems no matter what I'm doing my muscles give out at about 40-45 seconds, no matter how light I'm working. The few things I can do past 45 seconds, planks and handstands, I start to really struggle at that point. Last time I tested my speed pushup max I got 28. Incidentally giving out in 40 seconds. Which is about how long I can go on slower declines too, which for most people are way harder (my feet elevated or not, I don't really notice a significant performance difference).

The fact that I can do a one arm pushup, yet struggle to even do 25-30 regular pushups is....pitiful. Pushing up my 1RM has done virtually nothing for my endurance. This is really noticable doing yoga, I can't hold stuff very long at all.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Have you checked your strength endurance recently? While I haven't checked my pushup max in a month, it seems no matter what I'm doing my muscles give out at about 40-45 seconds, no matter how light I'm working. The few things I can do past 45 seconds, planks and handstands, I start to really struggle at that point. Last time I tested my speed pushup max I got 28. Incidentally giving out in 40 seconds. Which is about how long I can go on slower declines too, which for most people are way harder (my feet elevated or not, I don't really notice a significant performance difference).

The fact that I can do a one arm pushup, yet struggle to even do 25-30 regular pushups is....pitiful. Pushing up my 1RM has done virtually nothing for my endurance. This is really noticable doing yoga, I can't hold stuff very long at all.

I did angry birds while on vacation. I did 25-20-15-15 decline push ups at one point. Regular push ups I get into the mid 30's.

I actually do enjoy endurance work. I was doing those military workouts last challenge but decided I want to lift heavy more often that twice a week, so not doing them this challenge. I will probably mix it back in once I switch things up after May is over. I do want to hit 50 straight push ups because I am trying to knock out Steve's standards for a Spartan by the end of the year.

[joeyb]

This is only my slightly educated guess, but it seems to me that if you are stalling at a certain weight, then you are depleting all of the energy that you are providing your body. I would say that eating a bit more will help with that, but also decreasing your reps and increasing the resistance/weight as it should require the same amount of energy. That will help to build the muscle and hopefully allow it to store more energy for your next workout.

[joeyb]

Have you checked your strength endurance recently? While I haven't checked my pushup max in a month, it seems no matter what I'm doing my muscles give out at about 40-45 seconds, no matter how light I'm working. The few things I can do past 45 seconds, planks and handstands, I start to really struggle at that point. Last time I tested my speed pushup max I got 28. Incidentally giving out in 40 seconds. Which is about how long I can go on slower declines too, which for most people are way harder (my feet elevated or not, I don't really notice a significant performance difference).

The fact that I can do a one arm pushup, yet struggle to even do 25-30 regular pushups is....pitiful. Pushing up my 1RM has done virtually nothing for my endurance. This is really noticable doing yoga, I can't hold stuff very long at all.

I don't know if you've ready convict conditioning, but he suggests that you do warmups and cool downs with easier variations of the exercises. Essentially, 15 pushups, 10 Decline pushups, 1-2 sets of one-arm pushups, 10 uneven pushups, as many pushups as you can do. You can probably cut some of the sets so you have more energy for the one-arm sets, but doing more sets with higher reps of easier pushups should help your endurance.

[aj_rock]

*Record scratch*

R-r-r-reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeefeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

But no really. A given training/calorie cut cycle should only last 6-8 weeks. Stop working out for a week and go eat something. If you do it right, you'll be far more powerful than you could ever imagine...

[161803398874989]

I don't know if you've ready convict conditioning, but he suggests that you do warmups and cool downs with easier variations of the exercises. Essentially, 15 pushups, 10 Decline pushups, 1-2 sets of one-arm pushups, 10 uneven pushups, as many pushups as you can do. You can probably cut some of the sets so you have more energy for the one-arm sets, but doing more sets with higher reps of easier pushups should help your endurance.

I think you don't know Waldo, do you? Guy knows much more than what's in CC (which, admittedly, contains quite a load of bull).

[joeyb]

I think you don't know Waldo, do you? Guy knows much more than what's in CC (which, admittedly, contains quite a load of bull).

Nope, I'm new here. I know it does, which is why I basically just take suggestions from it like progressions of exercises and whatnot. I figured I'd just make the suggestion, though, as it's seemed to help me so far.

[Waldo]

Nope, I'm new here. I know it does, which is why I basically just take suggestions from it like progressions of exercises and whatnot. I figured I'd just make the suggestion, though, as it's seemed to help me so far.

CC's process to the letter would work in most cases, it would just be so ridiculously inefficient. If you are targeting strength gains there is absolutely no reason do be doing 10+ reps of any exercise unless you are stuck dealing with a big step and can't quite get enough out of the next step. Those progressons are not necessarily the way there, merely one path, to get to the hard stuff you really need to try a few options and impliment your own path; everybody has different strengths and weaknesses.

All of the benefits of high rep work are significantly enhanced by working circuit-style, in which case some of the BW circuits on NF and some of the Crossfit WoD's are much, much better.

If you want prehab benefits (the reason he gives for lollygagging the steps), incorportate prehab static exercises and mobility exercises into your warmup; make prehab an everyday thing.

To be fair, the whole body exercise split that he makes is brilliant and works like a charm, it is the bodyweight equivalent of SL/SS's barbel full body split (bridging is to bodyweight what the deadlift is to the barbel).

[joeyb]

Thanks for the information. I've been doing a lot of reading on fitness lately and I'm taking what I want out of different things, so I'll keep this in mind. What I meant, though, was that I use the specific exercises to to progress to the point that I feel comfortable moving up to the next level, but I ignore his suggested numbers almost completely. My workout plan is somewhere between Steve's beginner BW circuit, CC's workout, and hundred pushups/two hundred squats/etc.

You said you struggled with endurance and I didn't know how knowledgeable you are on the topic, so I figured I'd pass something I had read along.

[Lachy]

Wow, lots of responses over night, thanks guys!

If you want to progress, you'll probably have to eat more.

If I prioritise strength progress, yeah I agree, gotta eat more, but my priority is still to loose fat, at least for a little while longer. Though I do admit, there is a nagging voice in my head that says forget fat, get strong! I'm OK with the lack of strength progress for now, just looking for the best path forward while still cutting fat.

I'd say do a combination of options 1 and 2, this is what I'm starting to do. Keep slogging away and trying for 5x5 and try to increase. If you miss reps, eventually you're supposed to go to 3x5. What I am goign to do at that point (starting it this week with OHP) is do the 3x5 at my working weight, then drop about 10% off of that and do 2 more sets with higher reps. That way, you're getting the 3x5 working sets in, but still getting the higher volume and intensity.

That's not a bad idea, Corey. Might give that ago myself. Glad to know I'm not the only one facing this, didn't think I would be.

It might be worth it to completely change your program for a while. Everybody will eventually stall on every program. You can't just ride SL out to infinite strength. It is a beginning strength program.

I know I'd eventualy stall on SL, but I don't think this is a true stall in that I've reached the end of n00b gains, it's more that I'm stunting myself by not eating all the foods. I think as soon as I up the food, the gains will return, at least for a time, then it will be time to change plans for sure. That said, you could be on to something, if I were to change, what would you suggest?

I'm trying to add interval training in once or twice a week, went for sprints the other morning. Bit early to tell what the effect of that will be on both my strength training and my fat loss though. One thing I've worked out for sure this week is that I have to stop playing Mass Effect 3 earlier, and get myself to bed for a good sleep! But that damn game, makes time disapear!