Small rant: why I won't be helping anyone else with their form at the gym.

[MrHyde]

Today at the gym, I saw this guy who happens to be there at about the same time I am on the same days. He went about squatting while I was deadlifting on the oly platform right next to the squat rack. I thought it curious he was doing deep squats so I took a closer look at his form, primarily out of curiosity. He was also using a really big foam padding thing between the bar and his back, while gripping the bar about as horrendously as it can be done.

I couldn't resist telling him about it, seeing as he is basically the only person who squats deeply in the gym; so I waited for him to finish his set and politely pointed out his gripping issue and offered to show him how to do it properly without using the foam thingy. He listened to me and the proceeded to tell me in a fairly angry voice he was a physical education teacher and had actually studied for that for 5 years (that's a lie, it's a 2.5 year "career" here, unless he sucks) and had tried all positions and that was the best for the body. He then asked where I'd learned that, to which I told him I'd read a couple of books, consulted my anatomy references and PubMed as a form of fact checking on some things and looked for injury rates in regards to common form issues. I did this while quoting the names of the books I'd used, in English. He then angrily diss-missed me, proceeded to do another set with an even worse grip and spewed a fallacious line to the effect of "I'm gonna keep doing it like this because that's how I've always done it". I said "suit yourself; I was merely trying to be helpful." and calmly walked out.

Now this is the kind of thing that makes me lose what little faith I have left in humanity. Seriously, WTF? And how on earth is being a physical education teacher in Argentina (it's not even a short university degree) where your job is to have untrained kids in schools run like idiots for a really long time in any way a qualification for… hmmm… anything?

I'm most definitely never helping anybody else at the gym ever again.

P.S. Sorry about the rant, but I had to.

[Wicked Pixie]

When he's spending the next year recovering from a blown out knee and bulging disks in his back, I bet he'll wish he'd listened to you!

[WizardTrip]

I completely understand! This is a big reason I hate stepping in to help people with form. There is an older ex-marine that works out around the same time I do at my gym (which is on an army base) that just kills me to watch. Everything he does is spastic and in such bad form. I want to walk up to him and tell him that if he has to swing his whole body back to curl, its too much weight; if he is only getting his forehead up to the pull-up bar, then he is missing a big benefit of the pull-up since he's not completing them; etc. Of course, me walking up to an ex-marine to give him advice....not gonna happen.

[Timmy M]

i've tried before but never had an angry response just a shrug of some sort or blatant idiocy, case in point: i was recently spotting a friend (spotting not bench-rowing mind) when i noticed a group of guys doing half-assed bench dips with a 20kg plate on their legs, i said to them 'you do know there's some dips bars over there' *points to the area directly in front of the doors where the dip bars are* one of the guys simply replied 'yeah, but this ways easier' (FACEPALM) i politely told them that it wasn't meant to be easy and turned away... bloody fools

also a few weeks back i was overhead pressing (heavy 8x3 sets (for me) with 57.5kg) whilst three guys were decline benching next to/behind me i noticed the very wide grip and also noticed how they were screaming at each other to 'go to your chest' (which not one of them did...) after watching them for a few sets to ensure that what i saw was what they always did i mentioned to them that if they wanted to go deeper they should try a less wide grip and get their elbows in, i was essentially shooed off, i looked at them for a second and just turned around 'OK' and carried on (note: they were benching 65kg... when someone offers form tips and they're strict pressing nearly what you're benching you'd think that that person would listen, but no) the 2 stronger ones then proceeded to put an extra 20kg a side on and did some 2inch ROM reps (probably for my benefit) i just shook my head at them and went about my business (they later saw me close-gripping around 80kg to full depth and walked on by) i don't mean to sound pretentious but christ they're idiots, when i joined this gym i thought it was a proper powerhouse... even the big guys rarely squat and only a few more deadlift (that i've seen) :/ can't wait for my own place so i can get my own set-up

[Lachy]

I think the advice thing goes both ways though. It depends on what you've been lead to beleive, people just don't like hearing that they're doing it wrong, no matter the source.

Yesterday a guy asked me to spot for him on the bench, I've spotted for him a few times before. He likes help on the final reps, so that's what I do. He then proceeded to spot me, even though I don't like a spotter, if I fail, I roll. He ofcourse took part of the load so suddenly instead of grinding out a set of 5, I pumped out a set of 8. He then told me to get stronger, I need to more reps of lighter weight, and that low reps of heavy weight will only make me bigger, like a body builder. We discussed it a little bit, in a friendly manner, but neither of us convinced the other. I'm happy for him to go on about his ways though.

Lifting can be like relegion, some people thing their way is right way and the only way, can't help but force it on others and will get very angry if you tell them a different point of view. Live and let live, I say.

[chairohkey]

I've never offered form/tech advice to a stranger in my gym. I just showed up, did my thing, then left. Once I started squatting, deadlifting, and benching 300+ for reps that’s when the questions started. Now people interrupt my workouts to ask about my program, stack, etc. A garage gym is definitely in my future.

[MrHyde]

@Lachy: I don't care whether or not he agrees or believes me. What bothers me to no end is the extreme rudeness and high fallacy-to-sentence ratio he managed. If he'd argued for his choice logically, with actual arguments, in a calm manner I would have found him perfectly nice and I might even have re-examined my own position had his argument made sense. And I must be really weird; I actually really like it when people tell me I'm wrong since that gives me a chance to re-examine a belief I might have formed when I was younger that truly is wrong, which is why my friends tend to be the bluntly honest types.

@chairohkey: You mean 300+ lbs, right? People at my gym squat that much all that time… or should I say quarter-squat?

[Lachy]

@MrHyde, oh yeah, I'm not excusing him for being a rude dick about it.

[wildross]

@Lachy: I don't care whether or not he agrees or believes me. What bothers me to no end is the extreme rudeness and high fallacy-to-sentence ratio he managed. If he'd argued for his choice logically, with actual arguments, in a calm manner I would have found him perfectly nice and I might even have re-examined my own position had his argument made sense. And I must be really weird; I actually really like it when people tell me I'm wrong since that gives me a chance to re-examine a belief I might have formed when I was younger that truly is wrong, which is why my friends tend to be the bluntly honest types.

@chairohkey: You mean 300+ lbs, right? People at my gym squat that much all that time… or should I say quarter-squat?

Chariohkey means doing sets of over 300# on the bench, not squats or deadlifts.

[MrHyde]

Chariohkey means doing sets of over 300# on the bench, not squats or deadlifts.

Yeah, I know. I just haven't seen anyone do that at my gym and it feels like an awful lot regardless.

[Knightwatch]

I dunno folks. People are built differently. There are some things that are always dangerous, but grip and the foam thing and the like are a matter of personal preference, when it comes right down to it.

Try not to take offense. You made a suggestion in good faith, but understand a lot of people have a lot of ego wrapped up in their lifting. If you haven't been asked to assist them, then you kinda gotta meet people where they're at.

If someone if enjoying themselves, and look like they've had success doing their thing, jut leave them to it.

[wildross]

^this. Sort of a take on what Chairohkey said as well. If they lift less than me and are struggling, and I'm not struggling and they can't figure out who to ask to get better....me volunteering is not likely to go over well. First you've got to want the advice. The only exception I would make is someone about to drop a barbell on their neck.

[cline]

Keep in mind, that you don't know what's gone on before. I've had soooo many people come up and give me really bad, unsolicited advice. Eg. "get out of the squat rack (while I was doing squats) and only use the smith machine" (what?) or "you shouldn't be lifting those weights" (what?) or "you know you really should have a rocking motion going on when you do those crunches" (what?). I even had one person tell me 25# dumbbells were too heavy for an overhead press. I was fine and not struggling.

A lot of the people at the gym have no idea what they are doing and offer advice. You might have been #3 person that night and the guy just didn't want to hear it because the people before you were idiots. Or, he just didn't want to hear it. It's okay. It's his choice. A lot of people workout with incredibly poor form. Watch the folks running on the treadmills. I cringe sometimes to see some of the form. Or the people hanging on the rails on the elliptical machines - oy.

I advise against unsolicited advice. Catching a weight, getting someone out of the way, helping when asked = cool. Otherwise, I say no.

I think it's like eating out. I do not walk up to people at restaurants and offer unsolicited food advice.

[ZenGwen]

What's wrong with the foam pad?

The only time I have ever considered giving anyone advice was when a really overweight guy started lifting at my gym. He was practicing squats with an empty barbell, clearly a beginner, and kept getting the bar on two different pins because he was facing out of the squat rack, away from the mirror. It's always great to see folks starting out, so I was going to just say "It'll be easier if you face the mirror, that way you can watch your form too, you want to go as low as you can on squats"...be a bit encouraging, maybe help him get over the "starting at the gym" jitters... but he figured it out before I was on a rest.

When it isn't a situation like that, of someone who's obviously really new and probably still has too much "oh god I'm in the gym lifting weights all these people are judging me" to approach anyone for advice... I wouldn't do it. People do what they do and I just assume the response will be hostile. Part of that is that I don't think any of the curlbros want form tips from a 5'3" pink-haired chick, even if (especially if) the dumbbells I'm using are heavier than the ones they're using. I'm even nervous about giving my boyfriend form advice, even though he's all for it.

I really appreciate it when people approach me about my form, though. I had a PT at the gym come up and tell me to squat lower a couple weeks ago. I knew I needed to, really, but I was lazy. So it was a great kick in the butt!

[gymell]

What's wrong with the foam pad?

What's wrong with it is that it's not necessary, and is detrimental to good form.

From the Starting Strength Wiki:

No. Don't use the "puss pad".

If your back hurts excessively while squatting, then chances are good you aren't flexing your upper back muscles sufficiently to "pad" your skeleton. When you grip the bar, you must keep your hands in toward the body as closely as possible while gripping the bar BEFORE you unrack the bar and start squatting.

In other words, get under the bar, bring your hands in as closely as possible along the bar, grip the bar with a thumbless grip, lift your elbows back and up, and step under the weight. By keeping your hands close and your elbows back and up, the muscles of your entire shoulder girdle, as well as your trapezius muscles, will all "bunch/hunch up", which will provide significant padding for the bar. Ensure the bar is kept in the "low bar position" at the lower-rear portion of your traps and rear deltoids, and you should be fine.

The main problem with the pad, in addition to making you look like a wuss, is that it tends to throw the center of gravity off. For an experienced trainee, this won't be a problem, they can compensate (and they probably wouldn't ask to use a pad anyway). For a novice trainee, this can be VERY detrimental to proper technique and balance development inherent in the learning process of the squat. So, all joking aside, the pad might help your upper shoulders "feel better" while squatting, but once you get to heavy weight, that little pad won't do jack squat, except for throw off your technique! If you have a shoulder injury, then the pad won't help at all.

Regarding the original post, I never offer unsolicited advice to anyone. There is plenty of information out there about lifting, and people need to take responsibility for their own knowledge and do the research. If someone at the gym starts up a discussion, or asks me questions, then I'm glad to explain what works for me. But I'm not anyone else's coach nor do I want to be.

[ZenGwen]

What's wrong with it is that it's not necessary, and is detrimental to good form.

Hmmm, interesting! Lucky that tomorrow's squats day, I'll have to work on this. Thanks!

[LadyGigi]

I feel like i have to point out that he didn't ask you for your help. And as well meaning as you were a simple 'I know a better way to do that, if you are interested I can show you'. If he says no then that's the end of it. He didn't want help and he probably thought YOU were the rude one for telling him he was wrong. I am not saying you shouldn't help others but you should make sure they want the help first.

And if he doesn't want your advice then he is the one that pays for it later.

[gymell]

Hmmm, interesting! Lucky that tomorrow's squats day, I'll have to work on this. Thanks!

It can be a little uncomfortable at first, but as you develop the muscles to support the bar, then it feels fine. Note that Starting Strength is referring to the low bar back squat, but the same is true for high bar.

[unicornassassin]

He was also using a really big foam padding thing between the bar and his back

What's wrong with it is that it's not necessary, and is detrimental to good form.

From the Starting Strength Wiki:

Are you guys both talking about this?

[Pat G]

Are you guys both talking about this?

@unicornassassin I would believe so.

I did use it, before actually going and checking form. if i didn't i got a nice scratching/scab on the vertebrae where the bar was resting *noob*

[azsf]

i tend to think of form as something that you will spend your life trying to perfect, and never get there. you can always be a little straighter, a little smoother coming out of the hole, shoulders up just that bit more, etc. Even experienced lifters have bad reps from time to time. So unsolicited advice can be a bit frustrating, especially if you know you stuffed up your set, or if you're working on getting one part of your form down and someone comments on another. not to excuse a guy for being rude, but I can see how it can be annoying.

generally speaking i appreciate form comments, but then again i'm a novice lifter so i like to hear from people with more experience that me. ill always revert back to SS though, as that's the program that i'm following.

[gymell]

@unicornassassin I would believe so.

I did use it, before actually going and checking form. if i didn't i got a nice scratching/scab on the vertebrae where the bar was resting *noob*

Yes, that is the pad we're talking about. Eventually you learn to make a shelf with your rear deltoids (for low bar) or upper traps (high bar), and hold the bar on those muscles rather than on the vertebrae. But you can't learn to do that if you have a foam pad in the way. In fact I'm not sure if would be possible to do a low bar squat at all with a pad.

[MrHyde]

Are you guys both talking about this?

Ordinarily, yes. The guy in question was using a much-thicker yoga matt rolled around the bar.

[spatzcat]

I dunno folks. People are built differently. There are some things that are always dangerous, but grip and the foam thing and the like are a matter of personal preference, when it comes right down to it.

Try not to take offense. You made a suggestion in good faith, but understand a lot of people have a lot of ego wrapped up in their lifting. If you haven't been asked to assist them, then you kinda gotta meet people where they're at.

If someone if enjoying themselves, and look like they've had success doing their thing, jut leave them to it.

I agree with this as well. I never give people advice on health and fitness. 99% of them do not want it. I smile and move on...

I use a towel on my shoulders when i squat...otherwise it feels uncomfortable. I'm kind of spindly and pointy and boney back there.

[spatzcat]

Ordinarily, yes. The guy in question was using a much-thicker yoga matt rolled around the bar.

holy crap. that seems retarded. yoga matt rolled around the bar? I use a folded facecloth.

bhahhhhahahhhaahhaah. he must have looked hilarious!