Am I hurting my own progress?

[DoogieT]

I started out by following a program on my iPhone about general weight loss but never really saw progress until I started having protein drinks right after working out, and really pushing myself. I'm still somewhat amazed at the changes I'm seeing.

So here's the question: I'm still following the program, but having joined nerd fitness I keep adding to it. I never did squats or deadlifts before so my workout routine in the gym just keeps getting longer. But what I've noticed is that if I add, say, deadlifts, by the time I get to doing my bench press I've used up all my strength and I can't lift as much as I could without the deadlifts so I reduce the weight.

Is that going to hurt me in the long run? In other words, I can bench press 65 pounds a side on the bar if I do it first thing, but if I shuffle my exercises around and try to do it last I can only do 45 because I'm burnt out. Is this why people work out different body parts on different days? I'm looking to put on muscle and I know that before I joined NF I was lifting not enough weight too many times, which is why I didn't get anywhere. I don't want to slow my progress down.

Little help needed.

[NukeTheUnicorns]

It's hard when you add a new exercise to the mix, but you can definitely DL and bench on the same day. Doing these heavy compounds in the same session is one of the fundamentals of programs like Starting Strength and StrongLifts, both of which are programs oriented at beginners. Make sure you are getting adequate rest between sets, and adequate rest between exercises. When I lift heavy, I like to take 3 or so minutes between sets, and 5 minutes between exercises. This might seem like a long time, but it gives your body adequate time to recover while still reaping the benefits of training.

[Hermione Gainser]

To further what he said, the waiting will make things longer but it's well worth it.

What's your current routine look like and what goals are you trying to accomplish with it? Maybe we could do some fine tuning or rearranging to help the flow and your ability to do all the lifts you want.

[bigm141414]

So DL should ALWAYS be done as the last thing in a workout. This is because DL requires such a high level of force that it will tucker you out by the end. Hence the crappy feeling when you went to bench. This is why programs like Starting Strength and Stronglifts have DLs as the last exercise of the session.

When setting up a full body in one day routine it's best to go Lower Body -> Upper Body -> Lower Body -> etc -> etc. This way the muscles will have time recover before the next round. SS for example has this on one day:

Squat

Bench

DL

Having the bench in between gives your lower body a nice rest after doing squats. IF you wanted to up it to 4 exercises you'd do something like this:

OHP

Squat

Bench

DL

And so on and so forth. Just remember to have DL last.

I second what Laura said and post what your current routine looks like. We can try to help you reorder it.

[Blueberries]

I agree with what everyone else has said so far, but also want to find out more about what you're eating. Your OP mentions that you were (are?) following a program for weight loss. What does your average intake look like on a day to day basis? Are you eating enough to fuel strength and muscle gains? One thing I've learned the hard way is that (even with newbie gains) it is VERY difficult to do both, and I often end up frustrated with the slow progression of my weights.

[DoogieT]

K, here's my workout routine. I do three sets of everything and I don't superset things, I go for water between sets.

Bench press

Bicep curls

Shoulder press

Assisted pullups (which I'm abandoning for negative pullups)

Dips

Squats

Dead Lifts

The weighted ab crunchie thing.

Then I take a break and have my protein shake

Then I do 30 minutes on the elliptical on the weight loss setting.

A few notes: I can't ever seem to choose a weight to make ab crunchie thing work. I'm either too heavy and compensate with my arms or too light and just crunch forever and nothing happens.

Also, I've only just started adding squats and deadlifts in my past two workouts because I have scoliosis and I'm trying to make sure I don't hurt my back.

That's pretty much it. I'm amazed at the changes I've seen so far but I want more! More!

[sugar64]

K, here's my workout routine. I do three sets of everything and I don't superset things, I go for water between sets.

Also, I've only just started adding squats and deadlifts in my past two workouts because I have scoliosis and I'm trying to make sure I don't hurt my back.

I feel you on that one dude, I have scoliosis as well and you're smart to ease into DLs etc. Just watch your form and reset as often as you need to :3

[msuroo]

K, here's my workout routine. I do three sets of everything and I don't superset things, I go for water between sets.

Bench press

Bicep curls

Shoulder press

Assisted pullups (which I'm abandoning for negative pullups)

Dips

Squats

Dead Lifts

The weighted ab crunchie thing.

Then I take a break and have my protein shake

Then I do 30 minutes on the elliptical on the weight loss setting.

A few notes: I can't ever seem to choose a weight to make ab crunchie thing work. I'm either too heavy and compensate with my arms or too light and just crunch forever and nothing happens.

Also, I've only just started adding squats and deadlifts in my past two workouts because I have scoliosis and I'm trying to make sure I don't hurt my back.

That's pretty much it. I'm amazed at the changes I've seen so far but I want more! More!

I think you might have fuckarounditis.

In all seriousness though - how long does that take you? That looks like a 4 hour workout to me. Hit 3-4 compound lifts really hard, then come back in 2 days. If you still have gas in the tank after 4 lifts, you didn't push hard enough.

[This is Seth]

Based on your current workout, look for something like this:

Day 1:

Bench press

Shoulder press

Assisted Chin Ups

Squat

Day 2:

Squats

Dips

Negative Pull Ups

Dead Lift

Rinse, Repeat. In and out in about an hour. Go home and eat some steak. Eff the eliptical and ab machines.

[Kewilson]

Mine:

*Warm-Up*

Squats

Deadlift

Dumbbell Lunges

Dummbell Rows

Pushups

Leg Raises

*Stretch*

Average time runs between 45 min and an hour, depending on whether and on what exercises I've increased the weight on. Everything after deadlifts runs on a circuit (lunges, rows, pushups, raises, lunges, rows, pushups, raises, etc).

[Hermione Gainser]

Based on your current workout, look for something like this:

Day 1:

Bench press

Shoulder press

Assisted Chin Ups

Squat

Day 2:

Squats

Dips

Negative Pull Ups

Dead Lift

Rinse, Repeat. In and out in about an hour. Go home and eat some steak. Eff the elliptical and ab machines.

I agree with this... aside from eff the elliptical... that's optional. I'm not sure what "weight loss" means in terms of it (really intense? really low key?) but (and the warriors shall gasp) there's nothing inherently wrong with doing some cardio. Especially post lift.. for 30 minutes or less. I'm inclined to say keeping it a little lighter is better for recovery. If you're going balls to the wall you may want to re-evaluate.

[bigm141414]

I agree with this... aside from eff the elliptical... that's optional. I'm not sure what "weight loss" means in terms of it (really intense? really low key?) but (and the warriors shall gasp) there's nothing inherently wrong with doing some cardio. Especially post lift.. for 30 minutes or less. I'm inclined to say keeping it a little lighter is better for recovery. If you're going balls to the wall you may want to re-evaluate.

I agree, nothing wrong with it if it fits with your goals. Every now and again I do actually run (gasp!) and most of the time enjoy it too.

[aj_rock]

Bicep curls before pull-ups? And no other back exercises? You need some fine tuning my friend. Toss those bro-curls and do some rows or what not.

[DoogieT]

Argh, see? Now I have no idea what to do and what not to do. Don't the pull ups count as a back exercise? Even on this board, people are contradicting each other. There's the whole "eff the elliptical machine" and "no, do the elliptical machine" dispute on this thread alone. Part of what I find so frustrating about going to the gym is that everyone has a differing opinion on what to do. Ever in that link about the f@ckarounditis blog people can't agree. There was the link to that woman on the Bosu ball and it said she's a certified gold's gym trainer, but then the video was overwhelmingly disliked, and some guy made some sexist comment that said "There's a reason a woman posted this" which really doesn't make me want to listen to anything else he said.

And who is this lean gains blogger guy? I don't want to get into intermittent fasting. If I don't eat I get really bad headaches.

And five minutes between sets? Isn't that far too long of a break? I thought I was supposed to wait for something like two minutes, not five. Argh.

Yes, I agree that I used to spend a lot of time in the gym and not see progress, but I'm seeing progress now. I can tell that I'm improving because I can feel my muscles growing and the weights I'm using are increasing. Plus I'm doing squats and deadlifts which I never used to do...

Grumble grumble, argh...

[jdanger]

K, here's my workout routine. I do three sets of everything and I don't superset things, I go for water between sets.

Bench press

Bicep curls

Shoulder press

Assisted pullups (which I'm abandoning for negative pullups)

Dips

Squats

Dead Lifts

The weighted ab crunchie thing.

Then I take a break and have my protein shake

Then I do 30 minutes on the elliptical on the weight loss setting.

A few notes: I can't ever seem to choose a weight to make ab crunchie thing work. I'm either too heavy and compensate with my arms or too light and just crunch forever and nothing happens.

Also, I've only just started adding squats and deadlifts in my past two workouts because I have scoliosis and I'm trying to make sure I don't hurt my back.

That's pretty much it. I'm amazed at the changes I've seen so far but I want more! More!

How many days a week do you do this?

[DoogieT]

Twice a week. The third day I'm working with my trainer, but once I'm done with him I'll be doing this three days a week.

[aj_rock]

Pull-ups count as a back exercise, but biceps are an accessory muscle. Your pull-up performance will suffer if you kill your arms doing curlzzzz first.

I also only asked because you have two chest exercises (bench press and dips) but only one back (pull-ups). You also work biceps, but not triceps.

Ok, to make things simple, start with large, compound, complex movements first, and then work your way down as the workout goes on.

So squats or deadlifts first, then bench, then pull-ups, then the leg exercise you didn't do. Bicep curls would be almost the LAST thing you did before leaving, and you can probably toss the ab routine entirely once you have decent squat strength.

[DoogieT]

I'll move the curls to the end, then. I keep squats and deadlifts at the end because I find them to be hugely tiring for the rest of the workout.

[This is Seth]

That's the reason you do them first, for safety purposes. You don't want to be already whipped from your workout when you crawl under 6 plates in the squat rack.

[DoogieT]

I"m nowhere near six plates. I have one 45 pound plate a side. I've only just started doing them and I don't want to hurt myself or my back (I have scoliosis) so I'm trying to ease into them. I'm not sure what weight I should be lifting so I thought I would start light. Too light?

[Hermione Gainser]

It can certainly be frustrating.. there is a lot of information out there... Your over all goal is what will dictate your routine (both strength and cardio).

My guess, since you mentioned above, is that you're looking to get stronger and lose weight. Is that correct? If so, keep doing your cardio after your lifts like you have been. The only reason to stop that is if it doesn't support your new goals OR you don't want to to do it.... example: on leangains, cardio is discouraged. But Strength+cardio is pretty standard issue get healthy fare. If you notice your recovery is suffering you may want to re evaluate...either your strength routine or your cardio routine. But that's something to address if/when you get there. and usually with both in the mix it's a case of too intense cardio.

Pull ups do work back, amongst other things. Doing bicep curls beforehand is probably hindering them more than helping them. Bicep curls are more of a finisher move, I think. I will definitely default to the likes of Jdanger on that, though.

Basic strength programs dictate 60 second breaks between sets as a good starting point. As weight gets heavier you can wait up to 5 minutes. Again, this is something you'll address as it approaches. And believe me when I say you'll know it's approaching.

I wait only a couple minutes between exercises and that's usually just how long it takes to set up again, drink some water, walk to the other side of the free weight section, etc. Only when lifting really heavy do I wait a long time between all things. And that definitely adds to my length in the gym.

Otherwise, I'll go ahead and say, "what Jdanger said" before he posts it. It is bound to be very good advice (and I will retract this statement if he tells you play on the smith machine or do squats on a bosu ball )

[DoogieT]

Okay. This agrees with what I've read before. I'll move curls to the end then and see about adding some more back exercises.

Also, I've concluded that the weighted ab crunchie thing doesn't give me nearly the burn that doing a plank does, so I think I'll just abandon it for now. Yes, the goal is to gain muscle + strength and lose the flab around my waist that I so passionately hate...

[This is Seth]

I'm not sure what weight I should be lifting so I thought I would start light. Too light?

No, starting light is the best thing you can do. We all did. Starting light gives you time to figure out all of the complexities of the lift before you get to a point where it's so heavy that you don't have time to worry about your form. You want to be able to rely on your muscle memory to kick in and hit perfect form as the only thought running through your head is "oh crap oh crap oh crap oh crap".

[jdanger]

Twice a week. The third day I'm working with my trainer, but once I'm done with him I'll be doing this three days a week.

Break it into two different workouts. Exercise order is important. Notice it jives with other advice in the thread. Big compound lifts first then assistance stuff then cardio last.

Day 1

Squats

Bench press

Assisted pullups (which I'm abandoning for negative pullups)

Dips

Cardio

Day 2

Dead Lifts

Shoulder press

Bicep curls

The weighted ab crunchie thing

Cardio

[Timmy M]

pretty much what jdanger said (i'd disregard jdanger just for teh lolz if it wasn't for the fact that HE BEAT ME in the last NF online 'meet' ) and if you are after fat loss do try supersets, i'd wait until you're well practised in squat and deadlift before you superset with them (my favourites are OHP (or heavy Push Press) + Deadlift, Bench + Deadlift and Bent-over Row + Front Squat and i typically do these 5sets x 5reps, 10 x 3 or 15 x 1, but that's a relatively advanced rep range (apart from 5 x 5)) but basically something similar to what Jdanger and seth said you're doing too much in one day so split it and when you're done with your trainer tweak it so you can fit it into 3 days (maybe have the middle day as a light recovery day with some cardio?) without compromising your gains (especially with your scoliosis)

P.S. just as an aside i do those supersets first and do something a bit easier that i'm not too bothered about weight after it (incline bench + strapped bar shrugs after OHP + Deadlift for example but that one i only do on my favourite 'i fancy feeling like death after this workout' day )