LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[weirdquark]

Do you know, if you play around with the abbreviation, you can get the more catchy "QuILT GAB" instead of alphabet soup? Queer, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Gay, Asexual, Bisexual.

What do you think? *lol*

QUILT BAG is the "let's make this words instead of alphabet soup" that I started seeing around the internet several years ago. A group of colorful scraps and pieces in different patterns that don't always look like they go together that can be pulled together into something awesome. It does leave out the "P" for pan-sexual or poly, but it covers a lot and makes sense as a concept.

I personally like queer; it feels more inclusive -- in a larger box kind of way if that makes sense, and I feel that it covers gender identity as well as sexual orientation. I sometimes use queer to refer to the community at large (see above where it feels like it covers more things) but I wouldn't use it to describe a person unless they themselves use it to self-identify because it does have a history of being used as an insult.

[CyningaDena]

there's a big difference in what you feel your gender is (even bi-gendered) and what you feel your sexuality is.

And thus the Judith Butler reading group was formed.

[CyningaDena]

are identifying as "intersex" and identifying as "trans*" different things? Again, things that have never occurred to me to think about or discuss.

The Intersex Society of North America has some pretty good resources for more information, though they have a very definite political/social reform stance that is far from universal in the community. I think lizzie gave a pretty decent overview for a working understanding. There are, what, five different ways to determine a mammal's biological sex? (Chromosomal, gonadal, hormonal, genital, and internal physiological, if I'm remembering rightly.) Not all five of those fall neatly into one of two camps all the time. Most of those areas are not either/or propositions, but rather fuzzy sliding scales. So there are a lot of different possibilites, and some of the different possible permutations lead to bodies that are not "obviously" male or female.

For a good tongue-in-cheek discussion about how human bodies are actually not made strictly male and female across the board, check out Anne Fausto-Sterling's article "The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female Are Not Enough." I used to have my freshman comp students read it when I wanted to see brains explode.

[maggerson]

Thank you for the links!

[Starbuck]

This thread is a little bit awesome.

So, I identify as male, but am in a bit of a weird limbo state with transition at the moment. I still present as female in the uni/work setting. I'm out to most people I'm close to, but not everyone...which does occasionally lead to some slightly awkward situations. And then internet forums and queer spaces are awesome, because I get to just be a guy.

Fitness stuff is certainly somewhat involved in my decision to put off transition - there is part of me that really wants to see how far I can get without T and then there is also the fact that I do want to get back into competing in sport again, which is something I can do as 'female', but would be much harder as male even with T.

[Evicious]

Ally here (much to my parent's chagrin). I have two friends of non-heteronormative nature, both lovely people with perfectly normal lives full of the usual stresses, hassle, and drama of any "straight" person. One identifies as lesbian/bi, and the other as simply "non-gender"; she can't keep a girlfriend, and he is now a happy house husband to a female soldier, contentedly raising her children, and happy as a clam to have just welcomed his first biological daughter with her this past weekend. People are people, and sex is sex: neither one defines the other. Or it shouldn't, anyway.

Btw, great article CyningaDena!

For a good tongue-in-cheek discussion about how human bodies are actually not made strictly male and female across the board, check out Anne Fausto-Sterling's article "The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female Are Not Enough." I used to have my freshman comp students read it when I wanted to see brains explode.

[nightlight]

And thus the Judith Butler reading group was formed.

nice. i love kate bornstein.

[Raikas]

The Intersex Society of North America has some pretty good resources for more information, though they have a very definite political/social reform stance that is far from universal in the community.

The ISNA actually doesn't exist in that form any more - a number of the founders/board members created Accord Alliance (which is more strictly involved in changing medical standards for the treatment of infants) after they moved on from there. They've actually switched from using "intersex" to using DSD (disorder of sexual development), in part to avoid confusion with trans issues* and in part because as a term, intersex has taken on extra identity meanings that were keeping people who don't object to binary gender assignment (at least socially) from wanting to be "out", which just adds to the whole shame cycle (which is part of why parents make early surgical choices and so on).

*I call that the "No, not as in 'sex change', as in 'hermaphrodite'!" conversation, but a lot of people - especially older ones - are offended by that term as well.

[BookLoverL]

Hi, I haven't posted for about a month at least but whatever. I think I am probably lesbian but worry whether I am really asexual and just imagining things because I don't know if the attractions I feel are particularly strong, but I don't have a particularly big social circle since I live in a rural area and went to a school with fairly small year groups so maybe I just need to wait until uni (just 1 more month!) and meet some new people.

Also I support all the possible sexuality/gender combinations. As far as I can see if you are a member of a group that has been discriminated against and you discriminate against another group, it just makes you a hypocrit. As long as all relationships are consensual I am fine with it and don't care what you do.

[lizzies387]

sex is sex: neither one defines the other. Or it shouldn't, anyway.

i totally agree and loved the article. its just to bad that many people (some times even my self included) have hard time or cannot or will not come upon meeting someone or engaging someone with a blank slate of assumptions of how that person will act. instead of building up a knowledge base of how a individual person is we seem to have to break down our prejudices/stereotypes of how someone first appears.

Hi, I haven't posted for about a month at least but whatever. I think I am probably lesbian but worry whether I am really asexual and just imagining things because I don't know if the attractions I feel are particularly strong,

i wouldn't get to hung up on it, as someone who at a very young age was pressured/told that i had to be attracted to someone (IE:boys) i think trying to force yourself to be attracted to anyone can get you into some not-so-good situations and isn't very good for your mental health. but you've always got the acceptance of us NF folks yeah?

[Zorch]

i totally agree and loved the article. its just to bad that many people (some times even my self included) have hard time or cannot or will not come upon meeting someone or engaging someone with a blank slate of assumptions of how that person will act. instead of building up a knowledge base of how a individual person is we seem to have to break down our prejudices/stereotypes of how someone first appears.

I think frequently, this can because of the simple fact that it's incredibly difficult if not impossible to really understand the realities of living a life outside what society considers "normal" until you've had the experience of living as that person. I think this applies to multiple facets of life - not just gender and sexuality, but race, religion, and all the other differences that make us who we are as individuals. As observant and objective as we try to be, it's really difficult to truly understand someone's situation when you can't live in their skin.

...and the above is really why I'm quite interested in this thread. I have several friends and relatives who don't fit the "straight"/heteronormative/stereotypical categories of sexuality - and while do my best to support them through the challenges they face and try to be a strong supporter of rights and fair treatment for all in the LGBTQA community, I feel like I still don't have as much perspective as I'd like on the challenges they encounter on a daily basis. And so I'll be lurking on this thread, reading/listening, and trying to continue to advance my understanding so that I can be a better friend/relative with regards to supporting people I care about.

[azsf]

there is part of me that really wants to see how far I can get without T and then there is also the fact that I do want to get back into competing in sport again, which is something I can do as 'female', but would be much harder as male even with T.

What sports are you wanting to compete in? Would they be based on weight class (like boxing, weightlifting etc) or purely on performance (sprinting, team sports)? In the former, you should be okay to compete in mens divisions without T as you'll be squaring off against guys with roughly the same body comp. Pure performance might be a different story, depending on how far you want to go. Let us know how you go!

[Thilde]

I just think it's worth pointing out, because in a hetero-normative society saying "sexuality doesn't come up/isn't relevant here" really means "queer sexuality doesn't come up/isn't relevant here, and we're just immune to seeing all the hetero stuff that's flying around constantly." I think it can be productively eye-opening to see all of the ways that heterosexuality is threaded into the fabric of everyday "non-sexual" life.

Just wanted to poke my head in and state my agreement with Cyninga's statement here, because I think this is a really important point. As a contributing citizen of the advancing world, I feel it's my responsibility to keep myself aware of these cultural assumptions. Sometimes I miss them until I really stop, and then I'm like "Holy crap!" Bottom line: people assume that I am hetero until proven otherwise. In my case, I actually AM hetero but I think it goes this way for everyone. I tend to think we don't go around actively thinking about people's sexuality unless they carry one of the "markers" we as a culture have defined, markers that "clash" with the other markers we've also silently accepted as identifiers of hetero-normative behavior: the wedding band, the stroller, mention of kids, etc. When I don't wear my wedding band, I sometimes wonder if people, meeting me alone in a store or something, would assume I am other than hetero because I happen to carry some of those "markers" we've made famous in sitcoms and movies. Worse, we seem to do this with so many areas of variation among us: skin color, visible representations of religious or spiritual practice, visible representations of age, and sexuality and gender. We tend to assume the other person is exactly like us until they do, say, wear, eat, kiss, or pray something that is different. I think this seeking of patterns is part of our neural wiring, but neural wiring can evolve to further advance human civilization. To use Ken Wilber's terminology, I think we need to be striving for second-tier consciousness, where these variations among us no longer cause that pause, that moment of "Okay...this person is [insert different-from-me attribute here]...am I okay with that? Yes, yes I'm okay with that" or "HAYLS no I'm not okay with that!" I think we can get there, to that place where we don't at first consider our option to pass judgement on difference, and once we do, I envision the variations among us becoming like bright prisms to catch the light and send it out sparkling over a new world.

Wow, that was longer (and perhaps more wistful at the end) than I planned. Suffice it to say, I think this thread is the bomb-diggity!

[maggerson]

Thanks a ton for the thoughtful post - isn't it funny how nobody assumes you're an "other" unless you explicitly present as such?

When I don't wear my wedding band, I sometimes wonder if people, meeting me alone in a store or something, would assume I am other than hetero because I happen to carry some of those "markers" we've made famous in sitcoms and movies.

(Please tell me this means you have a satchel)

For my part, my girlfriend and I are a pretty good example. She recently got her hairs chopped into a really sweet dark blue faux-mohawk, and likes skinny jeans and Chuck Taylors with baggier t-shirts. I wear flared jeans and t-shirts on the regular, but I also have my natural brown shoulder-length hair. OH the assumptions. Appearances aside, there are a lot of actions that would normally "give me away" so to speak. I always like to joke that my biggest one is that I'm dating a lady, but most people have decided it's because I have several brothers and like working on cars.

We tend to assume the other person is exactly like us until they do, say, wear, eat, kiss, or pray something that is different.

This may be one of the best points I've seen so far. I have a young adult book that I read occasionally (because I love it OKAY) and it's called The Empress of the World. There's a character who says, "I'm from San Francisco. I assume everyone I meet is a bisexual pagan until proven otherwise". I'm not sure if that's an expressly healthy worldview, but I definitely give it points for openmindedness and creativity.

I'm also really way super glad that there are a couple of people willing to openly discuss (and get support for) their gender expression and how that will effect their fitness goals. I'm also really way super glad there are such awesome people here. Thanks, everyone!

[azsf]

Please tell me this means you have a satchel

hey now, nothing gay about rocking a manbag. if anything, it hides your ass from the male gaze. unlike the suggestive backpack, which gradually pulls up your shirt when worn across both shoulders, revealing your best asset to everyone behind you

[leadchipmunk]

hey now, nothing gay about rocking a manbag. if anything, it hides your ass from the male gaze. unlike the suggestive backpack, which gradually pulls up your shirt when worn across both shoulders, revealing your best asset to everyone behind you

I'm with AZSF, if I have to carry stuff, I very much prefer a messenger bag or manbag to backpack. Though, I am considering a sling pack, kinda halfway between the two.

[Wolverine]

hey now, nothing gay about rocking a manbag. if anything, it hides your ass from the male gaze. unlike the suggestive backpack, which gradually pulls up your shirt when worn across both shoulders, revealing your best asset to everyone behind you

I'm gonna have to rock backpacks more often...

[Avistew]

Hey everyone! Coming in mostly to show support as an ally, since I'm straight and fine with having a female body (although I feel like I'd be just as fine in a male one. I think the main change, other than physical, would be that I'd be gay and have to deal with a lot of crap). This being said, I'm also poly, which is sometimes considered to be a GSM (Gender and Sexual Minority) as well.

I'm curious if being LGBT+ has a lot of consequences when you're working out. Like, do people go "well of course you're gay!" to females who work out, or something like that? Since I've done all of my working out in private so far (or at night) I haven't had any experience with that.

This being said, I have short hair, I make dirty jokes, I'm a geek and I hang around guys a lot, so I'm no stranger to people thinking I'm a lesbian... until they hear me talk about guys (I was going to use a different word but I'm not sure how family friendly this forum is trying to be).

Assumptions are weird. I assume if I get muscular on top of the rest, more people will assume I'm gay. Fortunately I've never had problems about it (like people trying to discriminate against me because of my perceived orientation or something).

[Rilo]

Who coined the term non-heteronormative? It sounds like a fancy way of saying you're gay or in a homo relationship. Which I'd rather say because I read too much into words and non-heteronormative to me insinuates that there's no homonormative. But for me being with my girlfriend is the most normal thing in the world and I don't think twice about what society deems as normal.

[nightlight]

Who coined the term non-heteronormative? It sounds like a fancy way of saying you're gay or in a homo relationship. Which I'd rather say because I read too much into words and non-heteronormative to me insinuates that there's no homonormative. But for me being with my girlfriend is the most normal thing in the world and I don't think twice about what society deems as normal.

i was thinking about this -- and i have no idea. and i was also struck by the "norm" which then made me think, hey... i may be anything BUT normal, but it has nothing to do with my sexuality.

[Lizifer]

Who coined the term non-heteronormative? It sounds like a fancy way of saying you're gay or in a homo relationship. Which I'd rather say because I read too much into words and non-heteronormative to me insinuates that there's no homonormative. But for me being with my girlfriend is the most normal thing in the world and I don't think twice about what society deems as normal.

i was thinking about this -- and i have no idea. and i was also struck by the "norm" which then made me think, hey... i may be anything BUT normal, but it has nothing to do with my sexuality.

I kinda figured it's because there's the common presumption that het *is* the norm (from a mathematical stance, at least). Ergo, non-normative would be any outliers to that cultural standard. As noted above, there's the general "I must fit others into boxen that make sense to me, and sexuality/ gender standards are primary identifiers to behaviours I see/ anticipate." It's only been in the very recent past, after all, that non-het had visibility, and it's still the kinda default brain setting in meeting new people for most of America, I think. "I'm straight, therefore unless I'm told otherwise, I presume all I encounter are also." In such cases - IE: for the majority of Americans - "normative" becomes modified to specify "heteronormative," because sexuality is, for many (for whatever reason) a fairly sizable trait to parse in interactivity.

Should it be? Probably not, because who cares? Visibility of all becomes ever more important to break down the sense of otherness labels create to facilitate a diversified norm.

[Raikas]

I think "heteronormative" is a useful term for talking about cultural standards - like talking about princess stories where the happy ending is marrying a man and explaining why that might be problematic. That said, I really dislike "non-heteronormative" as an umbrella term that lumps the relationships of everyone who falls slightly outside of "normal" gender lines into an automatic non-hetero grouping when that may not be the way they see themselves or the way society sees them.

But I suppose that's a big YMMV thing.

I tend to think we don't go around actively thinking about people's sexuality unless they carry one of the "markers" we as a culture have defined, markers that "clash" with the other markers we've also silently accepted as identifiers of hetero-normative behavior: the wedding band, the stroller, mention of kids, etc.

Which is actually pretty funny considering that there's no hetero monopoly on kids or marriage (ETA: Huh, I just realized that that's a bit of a non-international assumption, but still - even in places without marriage equality I assume that non-straight couples can/do wear wedding rings).

[CyningaDena]

Who coined the term non-heteronormative? It sounds like a fancy way of saying you're gay or in a homo relationship. Which I'd rather say because I read too much into words and non-heteronormative to me insinuates that there's no homonormative. But for me being with my girlfriend is the most normal thing in the world and I don't think twice about what society deems as normal.

They may not have been the first, but I discovered the term "heteronormative" in Warner & Berlant's article "Sex in Public" (which is actually queer theory and not the pr0n the title suggests...although they do talk briefly about witnessing some very hot dom/sub erotic vomiting at a club...hmmm). Heteronormative is used to indicate the social context where heterosexuality is assumed to be the default and so everything in that culture works to support/reinforce that. So, for example, tax breaks (which are not at all about sex) are woven into heterosexuality in our culture. The expected progression of a person's life from single-oat-sower to married-with-kids-and-responsibility to grandparent-bequeathing-goods-upon-next-generation (and the assumption that there's something horribly wrong with you if you aren't following that progression) would be another example. The unquestioned assumption that of course a female hospital patient's husband should be allowed to visit her (but not a female patient's "lady friend") would be a third.

Some people would say it's totally possible to be in a gay relationship and still be heteronormative. There are a lot of gay people, after all, whose primary concern is demonstrating that they're "just like straight people." Which could be interpreted as wanting to buy into the system of bennies associated with heteronormativity. Not sure where I fall on that debate, myself.

Warner & Berlant would say you're right: there is no such thing as homonormativity because there is no system of social rewards and default assumptions built around homosexuality. There's the opposite of that, in fact. That's not the same as saying homosexuality is abnormal; it's using the sociology overtones of the word "norm" instead.

[Rilo]

Some people would say it's totally possible to be in a gay relationship and still be heteronormative. There are a lot of gay people, after all, whose primary concern is demonstrating that they're "just like straight people." Which could be interpreted as wanting to buy into the system of bennies associated with heteronormativity. Not sure where I fall on that debate, myself.

I'd agree with this. Having a family with kids is something that sounds good. I don't believe it's because I want to show the world we're just as normal, if I was straight my attitude towards family being important would be the same. The one thing I don't agree with is people letting their sexuality run their lifestyle. But if they're happy with it, good for them.

[Avistew]

The way I've always seen it used, heteronormative means "assuming heterosexuality is the norm and anything other than it is a deviation". Non-heteronormative is a compliment, a good thing, while homonormative would be another form of bigotry, just flipped.

Non-heteronormative, although a mouthful, doesn't mean "doesn't fit the norm" it means "doesn't buy the idea that there is a norm you are supposed to fit to". You can absolutely be straight without being heteronormative, and I assume more allies would be in that case.