LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Hit]

 

 

It's like they say; It gets better... but only the queer-veterans seem to notice... which might be what keeps the forward movement of change and constant expanding boundaries of acceptance going. Hm.

 

saying "it gets better" to the kids who are struggling for acceptance now isn't helping them. its not making things better for the people being harassed at work. its closer to peoples response to hazing practices - hey we went through it so you should too. that's bullshit. 

 

like, this phrase makes sense when you have been out and proud for years, and you can notice the "getting better" for yourself. but if you've just come out of the closet it can be like jumping into an ocean of crap. people gradually coming around to the realisation that "hey now that ive moved out of my parents house and found a queer-friendly neighbourhood / work / whatever im not as victimized" is not pushing the movement forward - more people jumping into the ocean and yelling "this is full of crap lets clean it" pushes it forward. 

 

 

 

I don't know, that note struck me as fairly mild

 

please avoid minimalising the struggles (and hence, perspectives) of others. 

[SevenofSeven]

So brother went to the police, and they had the same thought, no offence here.

So brother has just said, whatever. When I was talking with him he said all he would like really is for the bosses to acknowledge that what was done is wrong and hold a staff meeting and let everyone know that it is not acceptable, to push your opinions onto others.

I can say he is not optimistic about any of it.

[ColoQ]

saying "it gets better" to the kids who are struggling for acceptance now isn't helping them. its not making things better for the people being harassed at work. its closer to peoples response to hazing practices - hey we went through it so you should too. that's bullshit. 

 

like, this phrase makes sense when you have been out and proud for years, and you can notice the "getting better" for yourself. but if you've just come out of the closet it can be like jumping into an ocean of crap. people gradually coming around to the realisation that "hey now that ive moved out of my parents house and found a queer-friendly neighbourhood / work / whatever im not as victimized" is not pushing the movement forward - more people jumping into the ocean and yelling "this is full of crap lets clean it" pushes it forward.

I think  the point of "It gets better" is to tell the queer kids who currently feel that they have no hope, no place, or allies in the world that they have to endure, because there is, eventually, a better place mentally and socially: and that a community exists for them. I prefer this as a message than no message addressing the rampant suicide rates amongst LGBTQ teenagers.

 

please avoid minimalising the struggles (and hence, perspectives) of others.

I thought this was a discussion forum. This person communicated their perspective, and you dismissed it. I understood your point, but maybe less abrasive about it? 

 

[Anathema]

saying "it gets better" to the kids who are struggling for acceptance now isn't helping them. its not making things better for the people being harassed at work. its closer to peoples response to hazing practices - hey we went through it so you should too. that's bullshit. 

 

like, this phrase makes sense when you have been out and proud for years, and you can notice the "getting better" for yourself. but if you've just come out of the closet it can be like jumping into an ocean of crap. people gradually coming around to the realisation that "hey now that ive moved out of my parents house and found a queer-friendly neighbourhood / work / whatever im not as victimized" is not pushing the movement forward - more people jumping into the ocean and yelling "this is full of crap lets clean it" pushes it forward. 

 

This might just be one of those "it's different for everyone" things. As a young insecure self-harming queer kid who felt alone and scared a lot of the time, it made a giant difference for me to see and talk to adults who had been through the same shit I was going through and come out the other side strong, sane, and proud. It made it feel like there was hope for me and gave me something to aspire to grow up to be. I get that this isn't a thing you find appealing or helpful, and that's fine, but I think if there hadn't been those few out, strong, encouraging queer folks around when I was a kid (30+ years ago, so long before the "It Gets Better" project, but in their very existence they proved to me that it gets better), I would have had a much harder struggle.

[Hit]

 

 

I thought this was a discussion forum. This person communicated their perspective, and you dismissed it. I understood your point, but maybe less abrasive about it? 

i discussed their perspective, and then other people discussed my take on their perspective. I'm not sure how thats me being dismissive, but ok. I'm just against someone telling another person that whatever issue they have "isn't really that bad cos xyz" - thats being dismissive because its straight up saying that the issue isn't worth being discussed. do you see the difference?

 

 

 

it made a giant difference for me to see and talk to adults who had been through the same shit I was going through and come out the other side strong, sane, and proud... I get that this isn't a thing you find appealing or helpful

 

maybe i didn't word my response as well as i should, but this isn't what i was saying at all. i was responding to NikaNikas full comment that proposed that only queer vets really know what theyre talking about when it comes to queer experiences. things can get better, but they dont get better by just telling someone on the internet "it gets better, so be quiet about the things that are bothering you now". there's a world of difference between saying "it gets better" and actually being a "queer vet" who hangs around in safe spaces and offers support. As you said, its the latter that actually helped you.

 

I prefer this as a message than no message addressing the rampant suicide rates amongst LGBTQ teenagers.

 

except it's not this one thing or nothing. there's so many other ways to reach out and tell kids it gets better without turning it into a handwaved gesture that absolves you of doing any real work. things don't just "get" better, you have to make them better.

[EagleRising]

This might just be one of those "it's different for everyone" things. As a young insecure self-harming queer kid who felt alone and scared a lot of the time, it made a giant difference for me to see and talk to adults who had been through the same shit I was going through and come out the other side strong, sane, and proud. It made it feel like there was hope for me and gave me something to aspire to grow up to be. I get that this isn't a thing you find appealing or helpful, and that's fine, but I think if there hadn't been those few out, strong, encouraging queer folks around when I was a kid (30+ years ago, so long before the "It Gets Better" project, but in their very existence they proved to me that it gets better), I would have had a much harder struggle.

I'm with this. Only because there were voices like those in this project did I find myself able to push through. Some came from the media and some came from my personal life, but all were/are very important to giving me hope that something else was/is next.

[Candace Koller]

 things can get better, but they dont get better by just telling someone on the internet "it gets better, so be quiet about the things that are bothering you now".

 

 

Agreed. For some, when they say it gets better they mean shut up and quit whining. Not everyone, but if I understand correctly those are the ones being addressed above. A lot of people practice slacktivism where they think if they say a phrase or share a picture or whatever else then they did their part and don't really need to help solve the problem and that can make things worse for a lot of people who can't get help from others who think they already have helped.

Someone saying, "I've been here, this was my experience, this is how I got through it, it gets better" is very different than someone who just says "it gets better" with no context and expects that is suddenly going to make that person's life easier.

To clarify, I have absolutely nothing against the It Gets Better campaign and think it is great, sharing it is great, etc. but people who use it intentionally or unintentionally to dismiss people's struggles or excuse themselves from working toward fixing the issues can make things worse.

[NikaNika]

saying "it gets better" to the kids who are struggling for acceptance now isn't helping them. its not making things better for the people being harassed at work. its closer to peoples response to hazing practices - hey we went through it so you should too. that's bullshit. 

 

like, this phrase makes sense when you have been out and proud for years, and you can notice the "getting better" for yourself. but if you've just come out of the closet it can be like jumping into an ocean of crap. people gradually coming around to the realisation that "hey now that ive moved out of my parents house and found a queer-friendly neighbourhood / work / whatever im not as victimized" is not pushing the movement forward - more people jumping into the ocean and yelling "this is full of crap lets clean it" pushes it forward. 

 

 

please avoid minimalising the struggles (and hence, perspectives) of others. 

 

I agree that saying 'it gets better' as a phrase doesn't help youth who are already, or recently, struggling.

The IGB campaign came after my time, but people used to say phrases like "killing yourself doesn't solve anything". These phrases didn't help me when I was a queer teen and going through all that. What helped me the most was finding people who sincerely loved me for who I am.

 

From observing others, what seems to help is /knowing/ and seeing other people that have gone through similar experiences, have dealt with similar communities, but also knowing some people with the same identification labels that have gone through different experiences as well.

 

Understanding that there are many people out there that have seen things change for the better, even with all the differences involved, can help encourage optimism and hope that may allow strength in pulling through dark moments. If that person is a role model of youth, it can reach a wider range, which is why the IGB campaign has merit when it comes to a societal/national scale, though it isn't the only resource since Trevor Project has been around for some time.

 

There are a lot of issues in queer communities, including suicide, and there are many ways to approach and resolve them.

My comment was never meant to be a response to suicide or anything like that.

 

Regardless, saying it is only a phrase to those just coming out of the closet is close to the same point I had started to get at by saying queer vets seem to be the only ones who recognize that it is getting better... Let me say them together; Only queer vets seem to notice that it gets better, because to those just coming out of the closet, it's just a phrase - but to them, it's a reality. 

 

I did not say it as a way of telling 7of7 to be quiet and when I say queer vet, I mean queer vet, even the ones that hang out at safe spaces to offer support. I was not saying "that only queer vets really know what theyre talking about when it comes to queer experiences." To say that's what I meant is a wrong assumption.

 

Could you elaborate on your thoughts around this point; "more people jumping into the ocean and yelling "this is full of crap lets clean it" ? What do you mean by this? What does cleaning the ocean look like? It sounds like you might have experience, or have worked as an activist, involving hazing and issues around that, maybe you could share some of your knowledge?

 

So brother went to the police, and they had the same thought, no offence here.

So brother has just said, whatever. When I was talking with him he said all he would like really is for the bosses to acknowledge that what was done is wrong and hold a staff meeting and let everyone know that it is not acceptable, to push your opinions onto others.

I can say he is not optimistic about any of it.

 

 

From what I've noticed, police tend to think most things are mild unless it's already too late whether it involves queerness or not. Some departments have changed and are changing, but there are a lot out there that aren't going to be a whole lot of help when it comes to preventative or non-violent conflict resolution.

 

Does your brother think maybe one of his co-workers left the note? It's difficult, but people are rarely persuaded by being made to listen unless something personal to them actually depends on it. I hope the staff have more amenable attitudes for his sake.

 

Since relaying the message might give him extra needed support; Your brother sounds brave for standing up for himself as much as he already has when it comes to the police and employers, give him a hug and tell him to keep on being a strong person. And you're a very loving brother to care enough to discuss and help him through the situation. Give yourself a hug too. 

[Hit]

 

 

To say that's what I meant is a wrong assumption.

 

having read your post, i agree i definitely jumped to a wrong conclusion. thank you for expanding on your thoughts

 

by "cleaning the ocean" i mean actually putting in work, and continuing to put in work. if you imagine that total acceptance is an island paradise, then the ocean is the struggle that surrounds it. In my experience, once people get to that island they tend to stop caring about the conditions of the ocean and focus on the tidyness of the beach. they drink cocktails on the sand and dump their rubbish in the ocean, forgetting the other swimmers that have to now push past it (case in point: Ru Paul and his use of derogatory language towards trans women). 

 

this metaphor is getting a little stretched so ima bring it back to my point: just because your struggle is over does not mean the struggle is over.

 

i am not an activist, but i am out and proud and vocal in my community. i offer my time at support centres and try to be as visible and as available to other queer people as possible. i face very little discrimination in my daily life, but i still struggle to accept my sexuality, my identity and my body. giving my time and being vocal about being queer helps me feel like i have value, and (hopefully) helps other people feel valued too. 

[NikaNika]

I completely agree with the statement that "just because your struggle is over does not mean /the/ struggle is over" and understand where you're coming from when it comes to those who make it to that island and forget about, or have glorified memory of, the ocean. I've interacted with people that fit this description, but I've also met others that don't so much.

 

In my dictionary, I'd consider you an activist - but then again, most queer people who are out and proud and vocal fit the bill. It's definitely inspiring for others to be who they are and let their light shine bright for others to see. I used to be involved with a queer safe space/support organization on a limited basis and the people who ran the site 24/7 were extremely inspiring to me when I was a teen. They offered me an alternative perspective to the way the world worked and how to interact with society, just by being themselves and being proud of who they were.

[SevenofSeven]

A bit of an update:

Two more notes have been left on the cars of Brother's co-workers, one was a Muslim lady who works in the same dept, the other was another woman who has a mild intellectual disability, who again works in the same store. I guess now they will have to do something.

[Bekah]

A bit of an update:

Two more notes have been left on the cars of Brother's co-workers, one was a Muslim lady who works in the same dept, the other was another woman who has a mild intellectual disability, who again works in the same store. I guess now they will have to do something.

I'm sorry your brother's note was not enough, but at least they will do something about it now. I hate that our society is so close-minded on the whole. 

[Candace Koller]

A bit of an update:

Two more notes have been left on the cars of Brother's co-workers, one was a Muslim lady who works in the same dept, the other was another woman who has a mild intellectual disability, who again works in the same store. I guess now they will have to do something.

 

Wow whoever is doing this is a serious douche canoe.

I hope there is justice.

[Thrillho]

Might have to wait for the note to be on the dashboard of a straight white Christian man for justice...

[Candace Koller]

Sad that this is true.

[SevenofSeven]

So the end game to the note saga:

Nothing was done, nothing is going to be done and who ever it is will feel like they got away with it.

Multinational companies whose bottom line is more important than their employees suck.

[Hit]

dealing with queer issues gets put in the too-hard basket way too often it seems. 

 

and then theres this:

 

http://ti.me/1nRLljZ

[SevenofSeven]

Will have to see the link when I get better internet.

At work today a couple of the girls were asking about my tattoos. Most of them have 7 of things, seven names and birth dates, seven skull apples, seven babies, then one of them asked were the rainbow coloured birds on my foot for my kids too, I explained that was for my brother and we both got the same thing at Mardi Gras this year, our first Mardi Gras together and a bonding experience, first question " what is Mardi Gras " answered in techno colour, second question in whispered tones, " is your brother like, umm, gay? " third question was " is he like really hot like the other gay dudes?" I just had to laugh out loud, yes there are people in the country who have no clue. It was rather cute and their questions were genuine, we ended up having a good discussion and lunch just flew by.

[Hit]

 

 

Will have to see the link when I get better internet.

 

its the trailer for laura jane graces new documentary "true trans" on aol.

 

 

 

is your brother like, umm, gay? - is he like really hot like the other gay dudes?

 

all PC issues aside, isn't it weird to ask anyone if their sibling is hot? like, if i said yeh i have a sister, shes a lawyer, and my friend asked "is she hot?" i'd find that super inappropriate :| im glad you managed to be light hearted and have a good conversation around it!

[ColoQ]

all PC issues aside, isn't it weird to ask anyone if their sibling is hot? like, if i said yeh i have a sister, shes a lawyer, and my friend asked "is she hot?" i'd find that super inappropriate :| im glad you managed to be light hearted and have a good conversation around it!

Yes.. Yes it is. BEYOND WIERD! because there is the hidden context of *you sexualizing your sibling.* inherent to the question. 

I was asked that a lot - being the only boy, and the youngest. It especially came up when folks found out that three of my sisters were adopted. LIke It somehow was made more appropriate... eww.. eww .. ick

[GroZaV]

Hey, just popping by to say hi and sub to the thread.

 

I'm bi, in a heterosexual relationship for more than 6 years. I identify as... Just me. Being queer/ally is just part of my identity, and does not define me completely (AFAIK).

 

With my partner we're starting to talk about babies and shit, so I would fit the "with a stroller" stereotype hehe.

 

 

Sorry couldn't read all 82 pages before joining, looks like there's some serious discussion going on. Looking forward to join.

[ColoQ]

Hey, just popping by to say hi and sub to the thread.

 

I'm bi, in a heterosexual relationship for more than 6 years. I identify as... Just me. Being queer/ally is just part of my identity, and does not define me completely (AFAIK).

 

With my partner we're starting to talk about babies and shit, so I would fit the "with a stroller" stereotype hehe.

 

 

Sorry couldn't read all 82 pages before joining, looks like there's some serious discussion going on. Looking forward to join.

 

Welcome! You and me are in the same boat. 

 

I didn't check the full thing before I started posting too.. just jump in: the water is nice. 

[SevenofSeven]

 all PC issues aside, isn't it weird to ask anyone if their sibling is hot? like, if i said yeh i have a sister, shes a lawyer, and my friend asked "is she hot?" i'd find that super inappropriate :| im glad you managed to be light hearted and have a good conversation around it!

I didn't think it weird it as such, more of stereotyping, people see the TV shows with the token gay guy, who is usually pretty and the type of person you would take home to Mum.

[Hit]

damn those fictional, safe-gay dudes

 

i moved house recently, and im living with straight people again. it's kinda weird to be out of the queer bubble my ex and i were in for the last couple years and face up to the fact that most people aren't queer. a friend said to me the other day that i make him (and his friends) feel more progressive by hanging out with them, and while the new housemates wouldn't put their feet so far into their mouths i wonder if they feel the same way. 

 

actually i have no idea what they think, or how up to date on queer politics they are. im going to have to rectify this. 

[Artinum]

I'm entirely open at work about my sexuality. Not every place has felt that safe. At first, people aren't sure what to do about it - it's been long enough now that no-one cares any more. I'm just a regular guy that happens to be married to another guy. On the rare occasions a straight colleague (of either gender) has a sudden bout of foot-in-mouth syndrome, I usually flirt with them. It's very disarming.