For the Serious Athletes: What's everyone's take on supplements?

[aj_rock]

If I knew how to post this as a poll, I would, but instead I'll just open up the discussion.

I know that a very large focus of the NF site and forum is natural lifting, natural eating, etc etc. However it stilll surprises me that no one has brought up the subject of supplementation.

To me, and what I have seen in the population concerned with looking good and developing strength/fitness, there are probably many people on NF that are curious about supplements, but are too afraid to ask.

Thus, I would like to propose a healthy, frank, and open discussion on supplement use; who has used them, who is considering using them, and why.

A few qualifiers before we begin:

-This is NOT meant to be a thread for bashing supplement use. Whether you are for or against them, they have their place in program/diet design for many people, and for people sitting on the fence, they deserve an honest opinion and discussion of the effects of different supplements, rather than a blanket ban across all of them.

- If you don't know, ASK, or READ. Uninformed opinions are the real killer when it comes to many aspects of training (and are indeed the leading cause of the dreaded BRO-science). Please, if you don't know what a given supplement actually does, ask about it, but don't tell us what your sister's boyfriend's good buddy who's incredibly JACKED has to say about it.

- I would like to keep this to information only, based on known effects, side-effects, and actual anecdotal evidence. I want people who come in to read this thread to be able to make their own decisions about supplementation.

- I understand that supplements are not for everyone, and indeed for most people on this website, are most likely completely uneccessary. I am in no way endorsing the use of one supplement or another, regardless of my own personal history in the use of such. Anyone considering supplementation should consult with their doctor before beginning anything.

With that, I hope to have a good discussion. All you supplementers out there, let me know what's going on!

[jdanger]

Good thread AJ. I was thinking about this the other day. I don't have time to be too rigorous right now but I take the following stuff off and on.

Things I take more often than not:

Whey

Fish oil

Magnesium

Glutamine

BCAAs

Stuff I take when I remember, as needed or when I am gutting out a tough cycle:

Vit D3

Creatine

HMB

B-Alanine

Melatonin

The occasional dose of "Black Powder" type OMGWTFHeartExplode preworkout crap when I really feel like I need to smash skulls at the expense of my cardiovascular health.

Looking forward to following this.

[SuperVitali]

These I take every day, no questions:

Fishoil

Vitamin D

ZMA

Sometimes I take whey if im running short on protein on a given day.

I took creatine for a few months, saw slight increase in water weight, performance increased, but no way to know if it was because of the creatine or not. Did seem to help with recovery.

Took BCAAs when I was big into fasted training, but I didnt notice any difference so I stopped.

[SuperVitali]

Also, I'll toss this into a thread, great source of knowledge on suppliments, and other general fitness questions, all backed by scientific studies:

http://examine.com/

[Loren Wade]

I personally take Vitamin D, fish oil, and BCAAs. BCAAs are great for recovery, fish oil for omega 3s, and vitamin D when I don't get sun.

[ETFnerd]

I'm not a serious athlete... just a recreational piker but at different times i've used different stuff including:

albumin

casein

whey

BCAAs

Glutamine

Omega 3

Flaxseed oil

Cod liver oil

liver pills

CoenzymeQ10

l-carnatine

l-taurine

l-arginine

l-lysine

l-tyrosine

5-HTP/Vitamin B6 combo

chromium picolinate

magnesium

Most of it was experimenting with levels suggested by Colgan in the Optimal Sports Nutrition text.

In my experience you need this stuff just to insure that your body isn't becoming depleted over long periods of very intense training. Didn't really need most of it since I don't really push that hard, but i could see someone like staci or jd doing a lot of volume needing this stuff more.

It is well known that traditional US food sources are magnesium depleted, so that may be useful to most folks...

The best argument for supplementation is that you can get large dosages without the accompanying calories from food, because some nutrients are not highly concentrated in foods... but there are a lot of reasons against supplementation and you have to weight he pros and cons...

[aj_rock]

Hmm so I'm in the same boat as most you guys!

I take vitamin D, cuz I'm a pasty sunuvabitch. fish oil X3 daily, although if I had access to cheap pills I'd probably take more. I have both whey and casein protein powders and I tend to mix them half and half, so I can get a bit of the amino spike form whey, and the constant level/satiating effect of casein. I load creatine once a week in preparation for my 'power' lift of the week. Take glutamine on occasion, but only because I still have this big stash of them; never noticed a difference.

I'm not quite sold on BCAA's/most amino supplements. Most decent protein powders have such a good amino acid profile that additional supplementation seems likely to have a negligible effect.

jdanger, you mentioned HMB, and vitali mentioned ZMA; I haven't heard of either of those. Usage/effects?

[SuperVitali]

ZMA = zinc mangnesium and vitamin B stack. Mainly to prevent zinc and magnesium defficiency. Some say it helps with sleep. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't

[ETFnerd]

the BCAA flooding dosage recommended in the Colgan text is much higher than what i find in the Optimum Nutrition brand 100% whey isolate or hydro whey label profiles...

[catspaw]

Magnesium = sleeptasticness.

[Guest Snake McClain]

I don't do supplements. I have a reason for it but I'll keep it to myself unless you ask.

The only supplement I DO use is protein shakes and even those i do at a minimum. Like one a day. I should maybe up this but i'd like to do with meat as i think it tastes better.

[jdanger]

HMB - along with creatine, glutamine and b-alanine - is one of the few supplements that have legit science supporting its use for performance purposes. It's a metabolite of leucine that has demonstrated effects with respect to supporting protein synthesis and (therefor) muscle sparing.

Note the thing that all of these things have in common, they are standard things the body already uses; mostly simple amino acids or derivatives thereof - not magical mystical herbal "proprietary blends" or what have you. Supplementing them is in fact just a way to ensure you "have enough" to support intense exercise without having to eat 5lbs of meat or whatever the real food equivalent would be. Trust me I'm all about real food and meat but romantic carnivorous fantasy aside, it is a challenge.

The general line of logic when talking sports performance is: is this thing potentially going to hurt me? No, ok can it potentially help? Yes? Cool, can I get it from reasonable amounts of food? Maybe but it's hard. Ok I'll look into supplementing it. Is it cheap enough? Yes? Ok. Now how much do I take, how often ect..

A good example of this in my personal experience is CoQ10. Stuff's expensive as all get out in pill form. In beef heart however it's reasonable on the wallet and present in sufficient quantities along with other good stuff like selenium. So beef heart chili is my CoQ10 source and it is damned delicious.

And yes we are generally mag deficient and it helps with teh sleep. I take it in a product called Natural Calm so.. there ya go.

[spezzy]

Things I take more often than not:

Whey

Fish oil

Magnesium

Glutamine

BCAAs

Stuff I take when I remember, as needed or when I am gutting out a tough cycle:

Vit D3

Creatine

HMB

B-Alanine

Melatonin

The occasional dose of "Black Powder" type OMGWTFHeartExplode preworkout crap when I really feel like I need to smash skulls at the expense of my cardiovascular health.

My list is almost identical, actually. Only no HMB or Melatonin. I've taken a few workout omgwtfheartexplode preworkout crap things from time to time, but not often and not recently (since most are ncaa banned anyways)

I've also never taken magnesium, but keep thinking I want to try it.

*I drink probably 2-3 protein shakes a day (for breakfast preworkout I actually have one, its the only thing i can stomach at 530am)

*BCAA's I love. I've recently started adding glutamine to mine, and so far so good.

*Fish oil I'm off right now because it thins your blood and I've been doing a lot of HSPU (which cause all of the blood capsules around my eyes to break) so I'm trying an experiment to see if not taking the fish oil reduces that. I have upped my actual fish intake though.

*Multivitamin = <3 alive brand

*And I'm a fan of creatine in smaller doses. I actually don't notice much of a difference with lifting numbers, but DO notice a difference with overall recovery. I do cycle though.

Note the thing that all of these things have in common, they are standard things the body already uses; mostly simple amino acids or derivatives thereof - not magical mystical herbal "proprietary blends" or what have you. Supplementing them is in fact just a way to ensure you "have enough" to support intense exercise without having to eat 5lbs of meat or whatever the real food equivalent would be. Trust me I'm all about real food and meat but romantic carnivorous fantasy aside, it is a challenge.

This is how I look at it too.

[Centurion]

I used to regularly have whey protein shakes when I was going to the gym a few years back. Personally I didn't make any headway in my training but this was probably more down to not knowing properly what I was doing rather than what I was taking.

I've taken creatine as well but couldn't comment on that, tried it for about 2 days and then stopped so clearly not long enough to draw a proper conclusion on, although I did find it made me feel bloated and gassy when I took it.

Nowadays I don't take anything, not because I'm anti-supplement just because I prefer it this way

[jdanger]

Some people are creatine non responders so it doesn't do anything for them. Others, like myself and people in this thread, find that it helps with our recovery. That's really all a lot of the stuff I focus on is, recovery management.

@spezzy, right on. On the topic of preworkout stuff in particular, most people I know that CF and know their bodies swear it is prohibitive to metcons. I've got friends who take it for strength workouts but won't ever take it for hard metcon efforts. I'm inclined to agree with this approach.

[WizardTrip]

I use:

ON Opti-Men Multivitamin

ON Gold Standard Whey Protein after workouts

Plan on adding Fish Oil.

[aj_rock]

jdanger, I actually really like that simple explanation of supplements: most ones that are PROVEN to work only supplement key ingredients that are already found in our bodies to some degree or another.

Bruce: you've piqued my curiosity. Why? Feel free to shoot me a PM if you're uncomfortable about it.

For everyone: I actually know quite a bit about how creatine works, but it would take a while to write everything out. Maybe I'll do an article later, but for now, know that in order to get full usage out of creatine, you really should either take it chronicly (well, cycle it), or load a day or two before the desired impacted worktout. You should also concentrate on consuming a LOT of carbs before hand, and drink lots of water. Creatine drives carbs and water into the muscles, filling them out and giving them extra energy. The increase in cross-sectional area should make them stronger, the increased energy storage should improve fatigue-ability and recovery, and, potentially, although not proven, it can improve calorie partitioning.

If that whets your whistle, let me know and I'll be more motivated to write more on it

[Sloth the Enduring]

I try to eat healthy - lots of fruit and veggies and lean meats, mostly organic and as local as possible, in order to get my nutrition.

I also take:

Flintstones multivitamin, just in case.

Fish oil with vitamin D for my heart.

Zinc, magnesium, B complex (also sold together as ZMA), to help my body make melatonin, seratonin, and DHEA.

I just started adding a scoop of protein powder to my oatmeal to get me up to 0.7 gm/pound.

[jdanger]

I thought the recent research basically busts the creatine "loading" myth, or maybe that's not what you mean. Yes you need to take it regularly for it to really do its thang, but you don't need to take a crap ton of it to "load" or whatever like people thought in the old days. We may not be arguing on this one.

However, the strength via increased cross sectional area point doesn't sit well with me. The only thing that affects strength in that context are the number of contractile proteins in a given cross section sooo... allowing one to better utilize existing myofibrils by packing tons of easily accessible energy next to them, sure. Positive strength effects via increased CSA without a corresponding increase in myofibrils.. not so much. See also: sarcoplasmic vs myofibrilar hypertrohpy.

[chairohkey]

Multi-Vitamin

Fish Oil

Whey

EC stack when needed Pre-Workout

[sashi]

My Multi-vitamin (One-a-day Women's)

Vitamin D (recent blood work indicated a slight deficiency which didn't seem odd since I don't drink milk and I try to avoid being out in the sun)

Met-Rx Protein Plus bars (post-workout only now.. these are my guilty pleasure. I found them before I was lifting while trying to find a meal replacement bar to eat as breakfast on the go... I *hate* the taste of most of these bars. I like two of these and a couple of the Luna bars. I gave up the Luna bars for breakfast and only kept these for post-workout.)

[67alecto]

once a day:

Multi-vitamin

Vitamin D with Fish Oil (Vitamine D per Doctor's recommendation since mine was at the low range of normal)

Twice a day:

Glucosamine Chondroitin (per Dr's recommendation after I advised him of knee soreness - really seems to be making a difference).

[Lachy]

I only take a "Performance" multi-vit and protein shakes, 1 before work out, and a 1/2 as an afternoon meal/snack.

How do you know if you have any deficiencies that *may* need supplimenting? What are BCAAs?

[oystergirl]

Over the years I have taken a lot of different things mostly to recover from Lyme disease in a healthy way, which sometimes lead to taking like 20 different things in a day. I was getting to the point where my supplements were more expensive than my food!

Now, after reading a lot of information about supplementation (great view from Dr. Kurt Harris on archevore.com and new book coming out Naked Calories by the Caltons) I have cut it back significantly to what I feel is essential.

Magnesium Glycinate

vitamin D3

Acidopholus

1 fish oil if I didn't eat grass fed beef that day to balance my 3/6/9 FA profile

Arginine its great for girls!

A few times a week I take a B vitamin complex and every morning I take an EmergenC with MSM

I think it is so important to research not only effects, promises but the source of your supplements because there are so many shady dealers out there. I have a GREAT vitamin store and the owner is well versed and only sells the good stuff. Also running experiments on yourself for short periods of time and giving up on things if they don't work for you is key. If you do not see an improvement when one has been promised to you it is at the very least a waste of money.

[afflictionreckoning]

I've struggled for years for taking vitamins even though it's on the recommendation of a few different doctors. Why? Because a lot of people tell me that all I am doing is buying incredibly expensive urine, including some doctors. Obviously the jury's not quite out on whether it's of benefit to people or not.

Here's what I believe. Supplementation is not a substitute for eating poorly. I think people should set their diet and add supplementation where necessary. No matter how good you eat you probably aren't getting enough of all the necessary vitamins. That is the only reason I track food and it makes it really hard when there's this war about whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.

Recently, I've reflected on what my choices about vitamins have done for me.

When I was taking my vitamins regularly I was relatively healthy. A few minor illnesses here and there. A little pain and soreness. However it's as if I'm buying an expensive piece of jewelry every month for my finances and I do get nauseous when taking my vitamins because they have a god-awful after taste.

When I do not take my vitamins regularly I live my life without morning sickness, but I am sick all the time, I live in chronic pain and I waste the money that would have been spent on vitamins on things I don't need.

Now, that I look back on it the benefits outweigh the costs. Now is everything a direct result of taking vitamins? Probably not. Usually when I go on my "I'm going back to taking my vitamins kick" it's comorbid with my "I'm going to live a better life" kick.

That said, I wish I had always taken them. If I had known now what I know then I wouldn't have stopped for all the money in the world. Why? Because not taking those vitamins, I believe, cost me a lot more money than I saved. I have a malabsorption disorder so regardless of how I eat, I don't retain a lot of the vitamins I take in. Doctors argue and argue about the solubility and say that I wouldn't retain nearly the amount it claims on the bottle. It was so disheartening. But wouldn't I retain some of it. Yes, of course I would. Maybe not all of it, but it would be more than I can just take in with food. Really, I just realized that now.

The vitamins I take are dependent upon how I ate that day, but they're are a few I take every day: a multivitamin, Vitamin D, Calcium, Iron, magnesium, vitamin a, e and a lot of the Bs. Obviously the multivitamin contains a lot more than just that. Right now I'm working with my diet to pinpoint the deficits and see if I have excess anywhere. I think this is the way vitamins are most useful. There may be a placebo effect and some confounding variables but when I take the vitamins I sleep better (magnesium works without a doubt, from a former insomniac), I feel less pain, and I am happier. And if I'm happier than I will spend as much money as I need to on it because that's all that matters.