Defense

[gerbilOFdoom]

One thing most males instinctively do is defend what is "theirs". This holds true for human men, too.

So the questions:

In today's society, is preparing to defend and take care of one's family in a situation not related to a natural disaster relevant? I'm referring to things like robbery, assault, (attempted) murder,

If it is relevant, how would you prepare?

I say yes to the first because the shadier parts of modern society still steal and murder, it's inevitable. Desperate people do desperate things and by the time the police arrive they can only clean up the mess.

How I would/do prepare:

-Concealed Weapons License (when I'm 21): "Gunmen are usually stopped by other people with guns"

--Most likely a .45 Px4 Storm: Packs a punch, fits nicely in the hand, smooth trigger pull, large clip capacity

--Would also go for a .357 Magnum 6" Barrel: Best fit in my hand, recoil is easy to manage, looks badass

-Martial Arts lessons

--Tang Soo Do: Partially instructed by a local police officer, strikes are extremely effective when combined with a more defensive/passive art like judo, aikido, or wing chun

-First aid training

-Intimidating muscular figure to prevent conflict in the first place (working on it...)

[scotticus]

I think you're covering all of the bases here:

- be able to look scary so people won't #$% with you (get big, be strong)

- learn how to fight (Muay Thai is my personal choice)

- learn how to use a firearm (working on it)

I think it's also good to practice alertness/situational awareness as much as possible.

[Waldo]

I feel the opposite about guns. The best way to get shot is to have one yourself. People are much more likely to pull the trigger out of personal fear than out of aggression. If someone is trying to rob me with a gun, my best chance of not getting shot is to do what they ask; pulling a gun of my own is about the best way to guarantee getting shot.

The best form of defense is not giving a reason to need it. The most useful weapon in combat is the unexpected.

A cameraphone is a far more powerful weapon than a gun. It is an army.

[Guest Snake McClain]

My only problem with defense like this...well i'm 30 and aside from being bullied as a kid i've only had one altercation that i could not get out of (mugged by three guys in chicago). The rest have been bar fights that sure i could have walked away from but didn't want to. So that said I guess I have to ask how likely is it that something will happen?

The odds of someone doing something to you are pretty outrageous unless you live in a specifically dangerous city or locale.

So does that answer a question? NO. I still have no idea how practical or impractical it is to be prepared in such a regard. I guess better safe than sorry but then are you always on edge because of it? I used to be this way. Always wound up ready to defend and probably started more problems than i was avoiding to be honest. So I'm not sure.

[msuroo]

I feel the opposite about guns. The best way to get shot is to have one yourself. People are much more likely to pull the trigger out of personal fear than out of aggression. If someone is trying to rob me with a gun, my best chance of not getting shot is to do what they ask; pulling a gun of my own is about the best way to guarantee getting shot.

The best form of defense is not giving a reason to need it. The most useful weapon in combat is the unexpected.

A cameraphone is a far more powerful weapon than a gun. It is an army.

^ Agreed. And I say this as someone who loves guns. I think they are fascinating machines, and I love shooting them (at the range - I don't hunt either). But any gun injury/fatality in my house is much more likely to come from a gun of mine rather than that of an armed robber - so I don't keep one in the house. It wouldn't have kept me any safer than locking myself in the bedroom and calling the cops anyway - as Waldo said, quite the opposite.

[msuroo]

So does that answer a question? NO. I still have no idea how practical or impractical it is to be prepared in such a regard. I guess better safe than sorry but then are you always on edge because of it? I used to be this way. Always wound up ready to defend and probably started more problems than i was avoiding to be honest. So I'm not sure.

This is a constant point of debate between me and my wife (in general, not just about guns). She tries to be prepared for everything, and spends way too much emotion worrying about what-ifs. Yeah, and armed robber could pick our house out of all those in relatively safe suburbia, but is it worth worrying about every night? I mean, a Martian spaceship could fall out of the sky and obliterate the house, but I don't lose sleep over that either.

[WizardTrip]

For me, I choose to not have guns. I've shot plenty of them, and don't really have much of an issue with them when it comes to general ownership. I simply choose not to have them.

I have had several instances where I've had to be the defender of either myself or others, and in none of those situations would I have ever had access to a gun or weapon. In middle school, I was held at knife point as someone was attempting to steal my bike. I was fighting him up until the knife was pulled. At that point, the solution is "Take the bike". Another time in 8th grade, I was at the mall with some friends, and one of them got involved with a guy that used to hang out at this particular mall with "20 of his closest friends". She got herself in a bind and I stepped in, next thing I know, I'm jumped by 10 guys. Again, all I had were my fists and feet. I used my fists to get through and my feet to run to a guard with a gun for safety to bring back to my friends. Other instances simply involve me having to step in for friends that get out of line, or people that try something with a friend of mine, etc. I guess I've turned into more of a peacemaker since my size typically keeps people from wanting to actually get into a fight with me.

So for general defense, I tend to rely on my size and forms of hand to hand combat (I want to take Muay Thai). For the more extreme cases, such as having a gun pulled on me.....I'd just do as I'm told and attempt to use my brain to get out of the situation.

[chairohkey]

I feel the opposite about guns. The best way to get shot is to have one yourself. People are much more likely to pull the trigger out of personal fear than out of aggression. If someone is trying to rob me with a gun, my best chance of not getting shot is to do what they ask; pulling a gun of my own is about the best way to guarantee getting shot.

The best form of defense is not giving a reason to need it. The most useful weapon in combat is the unexpected.

A cameraphone is a far more powerful weapon than a gun. It is an army.

I couldn't disagree more. A cameraphone wouldn't have helped my wife during the home invasion attempt she experienced a few years ago. The gun she drew down on the guy with did.

[gerbilOFdoom]

^ Agreed. And I say this as someone who loves guns. I think they are fascinating machines, and I love shooting them (at the range - I don't hunt either). But any gun injury/fatality in my house is much more likely to come from a gun of mine rather than that of an armed robber - so I don't keep one in the house. It wouldn't have kept me any safer than locking myself in the bedroom and calling the cops anyway - as Waldo said, quite the opposite.

The only way an injury or fatality will happen in your house because of your own gun is if you don't follow the basic gun rules. It's much more dangerous for an armed robber to decide to kill you because you're calling the cops. Bedroom doors are VERY easy to break open and the cops won't get there for a good 10 minutes. It takes less than a second to get shot.

This is a constant point of debate between me and my wife (in general, not just about guns). She tries to be prepared for everything, and spends way too much emotion worrying about what-ifs. Yeah, and armed robber could pick our house out of all those in relatively safe suburbia, but is it worth worrying about every night? I mean, a Martian spaceship could fall out of the sky and obliterate the house, but I don't lose sleep over that either.

You don't have to worry about an armed robber if you have the knowledge that you are prepared to defend your home. Right now, your only assurance is that you might not be robbed and the robber might not become frightened and thus trigger happy knowing you've called the police. If you have a gun, you know that you have the chance to fight back. My Dad is a retired police officer from Jackson, MI. It's a fairly violent area because it is home to a very large prison/prison community (families of prisoners cause a lot of trouble). In cases of armed robbery of homes, the robber was almost always stopped and the residents unharmed in homes in which the residents were armed. In homes where the residents were unarmed, the fatality/injury rates were way higher and the robbers almost always got away.

[morethanjustamom]

I couldn't disagree more. A cameraphone wouldn't have helped my wife during the home invasion attempt she experienced a few years ago. The gun she drew down on the guy with did.

Agreed! I happen to believe that racking the slide on a 12-gauge shotgun is the universal sign of 'Oh, crap! I made a serious mistake coming to this house!'

[msuroo]

The only way an injury or fatality will happen in your house because of your own gun is if you don't follow the basic gun rules.

Based on your OP, I see that you aren't yet 21, and I'm going to infer that you don't yet have children. My son is just figuring out the crawling bit right now, but someday he is going to be an idiot teenager, just like I used to be. You should have seen the lengths I went through to do stupid shit at that age - including sneaking spare keys of places I wasn't supposed to be (you know, like gun safes). I certainly plan on teaching him proper gun safety, but the importance of stuff like that doesn't always take on a 15 year-old. You can take all the right measures and still have it not be enough. Add to that I live in a pretty safe area (crime rate is 1/3 the national average, whereas you reference Jackson where it is close to double) - and I feel safer without a gun in the house.

Edit to add: There's no right or wrong answers here. I don't have anything against guns, or people that keep them in the house. I just don't keep one in my house.

[chairohkey]

Based on your OP, I see that you aren't yet 21, and I'm going to infer that you don't yet have children. My son is just figuring out the crawling bit right now, but someday he is going to be an idiot teenager, just like I used to be. You should have seen the lengths I went through to do stupid shit at that age - including sneaking spare keys of places I wasn't supposed to be (you know, like gun safes). I certainly plan on teaching him proper gun safety, but the importance of stuff like that doesn't always take on a 15 year-old. You can take all the right measures and still have it not be enough.

I think a lot of it has to do how you're raised. I grew up in a house with guns. My parents never treated them like they were "forbiden fruit". I was taught that a gun was a tool, no different than a hammer. Growing up I was allowed to shoot them when I wanted and handle them if I was curious. By the time I was a dumb-ass teenager I never thought about messing around with a gun because there was no mystery left, fireworks on the other hand were a different story.

[Waldo]

I actually own a bunch of them, hunting stuff, but my brother has them, they really are of no use to me, I no longer hunt.

First non-BB gun, non-.22 (boy scouts) that I ever shot was a slug out of a 12 gauge @ about 12 years old. Needless to say it instilled a healthy fear of them in me.

(for those that don't know, a slug out of a 12 gauge kicks like a mule)

[msuroo]

I think a lot of it has to do how you're raised. I grew up in a house with guns. My parents never treated them like they were "forbiden fruit". I was taught that a gun was a tool, no different than a hammer. Growing up I was allowed to shoot them when I wanted and handle them if I was curious. By the time I was a dumb-ass teenager I never thought about messing around with a gun because there was no mystery left, fireworks on the other hand were a different story.

I totally agree that education and experience are a far better solution then sticking your head in the sand, and with that in mind, I absolutely plan on shooting with my son when he is old enough. (Speaking of which, do they still have .22 caliber rifles at summer camps?) Even still, I wouldn't trust my teenage self alone with a gun.

[gerbilOFdoom]

I totally agree that education and experience are a far better solution then sticking your head in the sand, and with that in mind, I absolutely plan on shooting with my son when he is old enough. (Speaking of which, do they still have .22 caliber rifles at summer camps?) Even still, I wouldn't trust my teenage self alone with a gun.

Yeah, I know that Rotary camps have .22's to shoot, was there last summer. But I'm 17, I handle guns all the time. They're normal for me. As for keys to the gun cabinet, just keep the guns in a combination safe and don't tell him the combination. That's what my Dad does, except for my Mosin Nagant

[Artinum]

I've often felt that the problem with gun ownership is not the guns but that so many idiots end up with them. My ideal policy would be that gun ownership would be completely illegal for everyone except me. Stuff fairness, I want power!

There's a general transatlantic culture clash. Here in the UK gun ownership is pretty much illegal without special licence, and even 95%+ of the police here don't have guns (they're still hotly debating tasers). Most of them don't have any gun training and many don't even want it. That's a heck of a responsibility. Do we have crime? Yes. Do many people get shot? No. A lack of guns is good for people not getting shot. Killing people takes a lot more effort. It's possible that I could be held up in a robbery at gunpoint, but hugely unlikely. Criminals having guns is a big thing and they're generally smart enough to know that waving one around in public will attract a lot of unwanted attention. Guns are rare here.

A shame, as I'd jump at the chance to own and learn to use one. Legality be damned.

[chairohkey]

That's what my Dad does, except for my Mosin Nagant

Good choice, one of my favorites. Cheap and fun to shoot.

[IrishAmazon]

I think a lot of it has to do how you're raised. I grew up in a house with guns. My parents never treated them like they were "forbiden fruit". I was taught that a gun was a tool, no different than a hammer. Growing up I was allowed to shoot them when I wanted and handle them if I was curious. By the time I was a dumb-ass teenager I never thought about messing around with a gun because there was no mystery left, fireworks on the other hand were a different story.

This is how my siblings and I were raised too. Lots of guns in the house, but kept in a safe, and we were all taught how to safely handle guns from a pretty early age. To the point where my youngest brother, at the age of 7, was instructing his friends in proper gun safety while they played with toy guns. I don't carry, but I have a gun in my apartment (smaller-framed .357 revolver, great because .357 has a lot of stopping power, but you can fire .38 special when you want cheaper ammo and less kick). It's one of those things where I hope I never have to use it, but I want to make sure I've logged enough range time that if I need to, I can.

[Guest Tigger]

I think the knowledge to defend yourself and your family/friends is still very relevant. I mean, yeah, the odds may be low, but there's always that 1% or even .01% that it could happen.

I was also taught "a gun was no different than a hammer, they're both tools" and my parents keep a gun safe in the house I grew up in. But I was also learned that in a home invasion/robbery/attempted rape scenario, my best bet is not using a gun. I'm not sure if this is because I was trained in disarmament at a karate studio (also the favorite for the local police force), or because I know (from my mother) that the legal proceedings for self defense with a gun is way worse than with your fists or a makeshift weapon.

Weapons=I feel like it's learning to use it more than what that weapon is. I've seen arms broken with walking canes.

Martial arts=Always good to know in case your weapon is lost/jammed/broken/etc.

First Aid=Absolutely. I would even say it's the MOST important.

Looking Badass=Well, it certainly wouldn't hurt

[chairohkey]

But I was also learned that in a home invasion/robbery/attempted rape scenario, my best bet is not using a gun. I'm not sure if this is because I was trained in disarmament at a karate studio (also the favorite for the local police force), or because I know (from my mother) that the legal proceedings for self defense with a gun is way worse than with your fists or a makeshift weapon.

"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." - Jeff Cooper

[Guest Tigger]

You'd be surprised at what murderers/robbers and their families can get away with in court. I just don't want to get jail time for killing someone before they could kill me, you know? It's just a thing for me.

I still argue that no matter what weapon you choose, you need to be skilled in how to use it.

I like frying pans and screw drivers. My aim with a gun is horrible, so I don't even want to have one on hand to be used against me (worst case scenario)

[andygates]

I find it hilarious that this is a men's topic. Og fight bad mans for womens!

Just sayin'.

[Benjsec]

There's a general transatlantic culture clash. Here in the UK gun ownership is pretty much illegal without special licence, and even 95%+ of the police here don't have guns (they're still hotly debating tasers). Most of them don't have any gun training and many don't even want it. That's a heck of a responsibility. Do we have crime? Yes. Do many people get shot? No. A lack of guns is good for people not getting shot. Killing people takes a lot more effort. It's possible that I could be held up in a robbery at gunpoint, but hugely unlikely. Criminals having guns is a big thing and they're generally smart enough to know that waving one around in public will attract a lot of unwanted attention. Guns are rare here.

I have to disagree with you here. Whilst yes, waving a gun around in a high street it going to get you arrested, I imagine it's probably the same in America (feel free to correct me there). I believe that the prohibitive gun laws don't do very much to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, any more than the drug laws do anything to keep drugs out of the hands of criminals. I was mugged at gun-point in the leafy suburbs of Cheshire - these things aren't as rare as we'd like to think. Instead all the prohibitive laws really do is prevent proper education on the matter, and keep law abiding people away from them. Much as in the old adage - all a lock does is keep an honest man honest.

As to how effective they are as a form of defense in an attack I wouldn't like to say.

[andygates]

You were mugged at gunpoint in *Cheshire*? Jings. One assumes you handed over your shinies forthwith, cursed the gods, and cancelled your cards rightaway...

... which is, to my mind, less unpleasant than escalating to a deadly-force fight.

[Benjsec]

You were mugged at gunpoint in *Cheshire*? Jings. One assumes you handed over your shinies forthwith, cursed the gods, and cancelled your cards rightaway...

... which is, to my mind, less unpleasant than escalating to a deadly-force fight.

Less of the mockery, you! But yes, I did, and got away somewhat shaken but otherwise unharmed. As I say - my point wasn't so much about guns for self-defence, I'm not sure about that, but about the general ineffectiveness of gun control laws.