Diet Fatigue Study & Support

[Everstorm]

Really struggled to keep calories down this week.  The over days and under days basically averaged out to maintenance, or maybe 100 calories below.  Not sure if this was diet fatigue or the ol' hormonal rollercoaster in play.  Going to try to get back on track for the next 2 weeks, then call it.

[The Most Loathed]

15 hours ago, Everstorm said:

Really struggled to keep calories down this week.  The over days and under days basically averaged out to maintenance, or maybe 100 calories below.  Not sure if this was diet fatigue or the ol' hormonal rollercoaster in play.  Going to try to get back on track for the next 2 weeks, then call it.

If you're a pound or so out from where you want to be, this is a great plan. If you've got more weightloss in the works, give yourself a break whenever you need it. I went through a week a like this at a pound out and it sucked to know I was so close but so far away.

[Everstorm]

23 minutes ago, The Most Loathed said:

If you're a pound or so out from where you want to be, this is a great plan. If you've got more weightloss in the works, give yourself a break whenever you need it. I went through a week a like this at a pound out and it sucked to know I was so close but so far away.

Ah, good advice if I had been on a cut for a while, but this was only week 2 of a 4 week cut ?

[Elastigirl]

2 hours ago, Everstorm said:

Ah, good advice if I had been on a cut for a while, but this was only week 2 of a 4 week cut ?

Getting back on track is a good plan.  

[Harriet]

 

2 hours ago, Everstorm said:

Ah, good advice if I had been on a cut for a while, but this was only week 2 of a 4 week cut ?

 

You did describe pretty intense diet fatigue in your challenge thread, though, which is why I wonder if now is a great time for you to start cutting. Have you played around with finding the most filling foods for you? Or do you still have a highish percentage of tasty, high density foods? If you do, that could be something to work on first, before cutting amounts. Or you could take a total break, maybe even go through the four step reset. You know best.

[Harriet]

I did more than a week of about 2000 calories, and lost no weight. I think I need to set my activity as sedentary. That makes 2000 my maintenance, and 1500 my diet calories. But a couple of days of that led to, perhaps coincidentally, a real drop in energy and mood. I'll try about 1700 for a week or two to see how that goes. Don't want to make myself unwell. I have the CFS to recover from as well as a few kg to lose.

[Everstorm]

2 hours ago, Harriet said:

 

 

You did describe pretty intense diet fatigue in your challenge thread, though, which is why I wonder if now is a great time for you to start cutting. Have you played around with finding the most filling foods for you? Or do you still have a highish percentage of tasty, high density foods? If you do, that could be something to work on first, before cutting amounts. Or you could take a total break, maybe even go through the four step reset. You know best.

I guess I just don't know what could possibly reduce the diet fatigue more than what I have been doing.  I haven't counted calories or restricted quantities of anything in basically a year.  I gained, on average, two pounds a month, so I "shouldn't" be in a place of diet fatigue.  My only challenge goals in that year have been adding vegetables, fruits, and whole grains in various contexts and, more recently, restricting the timing of sweets, but not the quantity, as long as it was in the allotted time.

 

I think the diet got wobbly last week because of the one-two punch of getting injured and then my cycle coming way early.  The added stress just inhibited my ability to make good choices.  If I can't get it together this week, I will just stop, but it's going okay so far.

[Harriet]

21 hours ago, Everstorm said:

I guess I just don't know what could possibly reduce the diet fatigue more than what I have been doing.  I haven't counted calories or restricted quantities of anything in basically a year.  I gained, on average, two pounds a month, so I "shouldn't" be in a place of diet fatigue. 

 

It took me several years to get over my first, really harsh diet. There is no should, only the best way forward. 

 

21 hours ago, Everstorm said:

My only challenge goals in that year have been adding vegetables, fruits, and whole grains in various contexts and, more recently, restricting the timing of sweets, but not the quantity, as long as it was in the allotted time.

 

I think the diet got wobbly last week because of the one-two punch of getting injured and then my cycle coming way early.  The added stress just inhibited my ability to make good choices.  If I can't get it together this week, I will just stop, but it's going okay so far.

 

Are you counting calories or just doing rough portions? But yeah, a couple of bad choices is fine, unless it feels really impossible to get back on track within a day or two, I guess. 

[Everstorm]

10 minutes ago, Harriet said:

Are you counting calories or just doing rough portions? But yeah, a couple of bad choices is fine, unless it feels really impossible to get back on track within a day or two, I guess. 

A bit of both, I suppose.  I am counting calories, but sometimes just eye the quantities instead of always weighing/measuring for super precise calorie counting.  I don't add calories to my intake for exercise unless I do something really strenuous, so if I end up a little over with inaccurate measurements, it more or less evens out.

[Harriet]

I watched a video on different aspects of adherence (to diet, training, whatever) and found it useful. He mentions:

 

inspiration (short lived flash that gets you interested)
motivation (actually wanting to make and carry out the plan)

discipline (using your limited willpower to get you through brief lapses of motivation)

habit (kicks in after about 4 weeks, he says, and fills in the motivation gaps more reliably)

and passion (doesn't happen to everyone but can really help you stick to something for life. More likely to happen with early successes.)

 

I think in the past I have really focused hard on the inspiration--you know, looking at pictures of women with enviable physiques, hating on my existing figure and wishing fervently to be more slender. Not super effective. I should perhaps shift my focus to habit, but also be prepared to do the difficult stuff sometimes--I am rarely mindful enough to just sit through hunger, I usually want to fix it immediately--and try to be really consistent in the early stages. It occurs to me that I should just design meals and eat the same thing every day, because having different things every day leaves too much open to negotiation with the app and the remaining calories, and that is not really as conducive to habit formation. It would be better to be a bit more rigid at first if it means habit will take off and give me some help later. And it occurs to me that making realistic plans and sticking to them even if they're slightly hard will be super important for racking up some successes--repeated failure probably creates the opposite of passion, loathing. 

I'm also happier this time knowing that burgers and pizza are in my future, they're just not in my three month cut. 

[Elastigirl]

35 minutes ago, Harriet said:

I watched a video on different aspects of adherence (to diet, training, whatever) and found it useful. He mentions:

 

inspiration (short lived flash that gets you interested)
motivation (actually wanting to make and carry out the plan)

discipline (using your limited willpower to get you through brief lapses of motivation)

habit (kicks in after about 4 weeks, he says, and fills in the motivation gaps more reliably)

and passion (doesn't happen to everyone but can really help you stick to something for life. More likely to happen with early successes.)

 

I think in the past I have really focused hard on the inspiration--you know, looking at pictures of women with enviable physiques, hating on my existing figure and wishing fervently to be more slender. Not super effective. I should perhaps shift my focus to habit, but also be prepared to do the difficult stuff sometimes--I am rarely mindful enough to just sit through hunger, I usually want to fix it immediately--and try to be really consistent in the early stages. It occurs to me that I should just design meals and eat the same thing every day, because having different things every day leaves too much open to negotiation with the app and the remaining calories, and that is not really as conducive to habit formation. It would be better to be a bit more rigid at first if it means habit will take off and give me some help later. And it occurs to me that making realistic plans and sticking to them even if they're slightly hard will be super important for racking up some successes--repeated failure probably creates the opposite of passion, loathing. 

I'm also happier this time knowing that burgers and pizza are in my future, they're just not in my three month cut. 

Right now I'm reverse dieting , so I have lots more room in my calorie budget.  I'm still trying to be mindful of the good habits I've put in place though. Sometimes I've done the cut habits and discipline while in a cut, and then just back to a free for all. Trying to be mindful that good habits are always good. Sometimes you might have to be stricter, but there are always times, even in a bulk, where I may have to say no or wait and not eat something the minute I have a craving. Also, hoping that stopping a cut before I am totally burnt out, will help me maintain discipline on the other side of the cut.

 

Thanks for sharing this it was helpful.

[Harriet]

20 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

Right now I'm reverse dieting , so I have lots more room in my calorie budget.  I'm still trying to be mindful of the good habits I've put in place though. Sometimes I've done the cut habits and discipline while in a cut, and then just back to a free for all. Trying to be mindful that good habits are always good. Sometimes you might have to be stricter, but there are always times, even in a bulk, where I may have to say no or wait and not eat something the minute I have a craving. Also, hoping that stopping a cut before I am totally burnt out, will help me maintain discipline on the other side of the cut.

I think stopping before the burnout is very, very sensible. Yeah I have a plan for maintenance, and it does NOT involve going off the rails and gaining everything back. Maintenance may be easier but we still need to work at it a little. I'm excited to see how high my maintenance range goes, though. It really does seem to be a range rather than an amount. 

[Elastigirl]

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

t really does seem to be a range rather than an amount. 

Good point

[Elastigirl]

Random thoughts as we enter a new challenge:

 

I was doing scrapbooking yesterday, and looking at my pictures , I was definitely not happy with my additional fluff around the middle. "Diet experts" say that you aren't supposed to be motivated by just wanting to look better.  I do want to be healthy for other reasons, but right now a lot of it is I want to look better in my clothes. I'm tired of being fluffy.  The plan is to start my cut after I get back from our eclipse trip.

 

Along with that thought, I was also thinking, yes, I do want to lose weight,  but I don't want to do it by  giving myself strict rules. It's a short cut, so I'm fine with being a little hungry, and saying no to some things. I just don't want it to be such a grind that by the time my cut is over, I just want to rebel. I would like to settle into a rhythm of maintenance, maybe slight bulk and then cut. A long term vision.

[Elastigirl]

And another rambling thought that I meant to add yesterday:

One of my goals was to actually be able to see leg muscles.Yesterday I looked in the mirror and I could actually see the start of quad muscles, and  I have actual calf muscles.

[Harriet]

On 3/23/2024 at 12:54 AM, Elastigirl said:

Random thoughts as we enter a new challenge:

 

I was doing scrapbooking yesterday, and looking at my pictures , I was definitely not happy with my additional fluff around the middle. "Diet experts" say that you aren't supposed to be motivated by just wanting to look better.  I do want to be healthy for other reasons, but right now a lot of it is I want to look better in my clothes. I'm tired of being fluffy.  The plan is to start my cut after I get back from our eclipse trip.

 

People deny that looking good is important but it is. It's important social and personal currency. Obviously it's only one of the many things that are important to us, and there are many ways of looking good, but sometimes our opinions on how we want to look are shaped pretty irreversibly when we're young. I will never stop wanting to be thin (I tried that), the only question is whether it's better for me to be honest with myself and others about it. And yeah, I hope taking some weight off will make every day life less fatiguing, but that's less inspiring in the short term.

 

On 3/23/2024 at 12:54 AM, Elastigirl said:

Along with that thought, I was also thinking, yes, I do want to lose weight,  but I don't want to do it by  giving myself strict rules. It's a short cut, so I'm fine with being a little hungry, and saying no to some things. I just don't want it to be such a grind that by the time my cut is over, I just want to rebel. I would like to settle into a rhythm of maintenance, maybe slight bulk and then cut. A long term vision.

 

A rhythm you can live with sounds great. Right now, knowing there are maintenance and bulking phases in my future helps a lot. And I'm going quite slowly so it doesn't feel too hard, just challenging enough for me to feel like I'm achieving something. In fact, my deficit is so small that I wouldn't know that it *is* a deficit and that I am losing weight without the algorithms of happy scale and macro factor. 

 

19 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

And another rambling thought that I meant to add yesterday:

One of my goals was to actually be able to see leg muscles.Yesterday I looked in the mirror and I could actually see the start of quad muscles, and  I have actual calf muscles.

 

Ooooh, awesome. I would love to be able to see the two muscles that bulge over the patella. That would be neato. But with my shape I will see abs, obliques, and assorted back muscles well before that.

[Elastigirl]

3 hours ago, Harriet said:

 

People deny that looking good is important but it is. It's important social and personal currency. Obviously it's only one of the many things that are important to us, and there are many ways of looking good, but sometimes our opinions on how we want to look are shaped pretty irreversibly when we're young. I will never stop wanting to be thin (I tried that), the only question is whether it's better for me to be honest with myself and others about it. And yeah, I hope taking some weight off will make every day life less fatiguing, but that's less inspiring in the short term.

 

 

A rhythm you can live with sounds great. Right now, knowing there are maintenance and bulking phases in my future helps a lot. And I'm going quite slowly so it doesn't feel too hard, just challenging enough for me to feel like I'm achieving something. In fact, my deficit is so small that I wouldn't know that it *is* a deficit and that I am losing weight without the algorithms of happy scale and macro factor. 

 

 

Ooooh, awesome. I would love to be able to see the two muscles that bulge over the patella. That would be neato. But with my shape I will see abs, obliques, and assorted back muscles well before that.

Funny thing is, I was super skinny when I was young. No shape at all as a teenager. Which is one of the reasons I got into resistance training. I wanted to look more toned. 

 

That's how I feel about having eating phases. No more white knuckling through a cut phase.

 

It will be a long time before I see abs. Even when I was skinny, I was skinny fat, and my felt like I had too much stomach. Also, I probably have unrealistic expectation and for my stomach.  I

[Everstorm]

59 minutes ago, Elastigirl said:

Even when I was skinny, I was skinny fat, and my felt like I had too much stomach

Me too.  I weighed 107 lbs in college and still had no visible abs ? 

 

4 hours ago, Harriet said:

People deny that looking good is important but it is. It's important social and personal currency. Obviously it's only one of the many things that are important to us, and there are many ways of looking good, but sometimes our opinions on how we want to look are shaped pretty irreversibly when we're young. I will never stop wanting to be thin (I tried that), the only question is whether it's better for me to be honest with myself and others about it. And yeah, I hope taking some weight off will make every day life less fatiguing, but that's less inspiring in the short term.

I feel this.  I sat down recently to write out my reasons and I couldn't not put looks.  Anti-fragility and physical independence are in there, but appearance is still a significant part.

[Sea-to-sky]

4 minutes ago, Everstorm said:

this.  I sat down recently to write out my reasons and I couldn't not put looks

I like to think of it as “feeling good in my own skin”. In whatever way you define that. 
makes it feel comfortable adjacent to re decorating the house for me. In the same way i would get a radically different hair cut or redo my wardrobe because the old ones didnt feel like me any more. 
hopefully that makes sense (it is late here, brain is slightly fried)

[Harriet]

20 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

Funny thing is, I was super skinny when I was young. No shape at all as a teenager. Which is one of the reasons I got into resistance training. I wanted to look more toned. 

 

I was very thin--under 50kg, but hourglass shaped due to my bone structure. I *love* how I looked. It was unhealthy, though, and I was very weak and exhausted. If I lose some fat this time round I'll be a lot more muscular underneath. I can already see some definition here and there when I flex. 

 

20 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

That's how I feel about having eating phases. No more white knuckling through a cut phase.

 

Right. We can't do white knuckling because it will just lead to backlash eating. 

 

20 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

It will be a long time before I see abs. Even when I was skinny, I was skinny fat, and my felt like I had too much stomach. Also, I probably have unrealistic expectation and for my stomach. 

 

Everyone has a different shape. My legs will be the last to slim down, I know. Also you don't need visible abs to look awesome.

 

19 hours ago, Everstorm said:

Me too.  I weighed 107 lbs in college and still had no visible abs ? 

 

That's very low! Similar to my weight in my late teens. I didn't have abs, either. Just concave. 

 

19 hours ago, Everstorm said:

I feel this.  I sat down recently to write out my reasons and I couldn't not put looks.  Anti-fragility and physical independence are in there, but appearance is still a significant part.

 

I guess it's healthiest and most effective to include all our reasons? I definitely don't want to be frail as I age.

 

19 hours ago, Sea-to-sky said:

I like to think of it as “feeling good in my own skin”. In whatever way you define that. 

 

Definitely.

 

19 hours ago, Sea-to-sky said:

makes it feel comfortable adjacent to re decorating the house for me. In the same way i would get a radically different hair cut or redo my wardrobe because the old ones didnt feel like me any more. 
hopefully that makes sense (it is late here, brain is slightly fried)

No, it makes sense. I've also been trying to do things to feel good about how I look that have nothing to do with weight: finally going to the hairdresser after many years, painting my nails, things like that.

[Elastigirl]

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

Everyone has a different shape. My legs will be the last to slim down, I know. Also you don't need visible abs to look awesome.

 

Truth! And while we do have some control over how our body looks, we also just need to be happy with all the wonderful things our body and can do and our natural shapes. 

[Harriet]

19 minutes ago, Elastigirl said:

Truth! And while we do have some control over how our body looks, we also just need to be happy with all the wonderful things our body and can do and our natural shapes. 

 

Yeah I've definitely done some work on the body positivity stuff. Trying to flank the problem from both sides lol. 

[Elastigirl]

Rambling thoughts :

    In mid January, I started a reverse diet.  The first week, I just tracked my calories, to see how many calories I was eating. Then I started, very slowly, adding calories. I am now eating about 350 calories a week then I was in mid January. I have maintained my weight ( totally shocked me) I lost about 1 .5 inches around my belly and about 2 inches around my waist. Some of that could just be  that in December I was eating all the sugar , and I reined that in in January.

 

    The reason I started  with adding calories is that (supposedly) it will make it easier once I cut. Instead of my daily calorie goal being 1,500, I can do 1,800, or even a bit more since I will be more active now that the weather is warmer.  I plan to do this for 6 weeks, and then go back to maintenance-reverse diet for 6 weeks or so.

 

  So far, I am happy with the reverse diet. Looking at myself in the mirror, I do think I have gained muscle. And I can lift more than I did. It does seem to work to have sped up my metabolism. I know some people say this theory is bonkers. But, the plan of just eating less and less wasn't working for me, so I thought I 'd give it a try. The whole time, I've been pretty consistent with resistant training. Working out is fairly easy for me to be consistent in, it's the food part I struggle with.

 

I'm taking  next week off, then I will start my cutting phase. I was actually feeling a little anxious about it. I stopped and tried to think through what was causing that, and what I have control over and can manage.

 

1) Worried about feeling hunger

Obviously, I will be more hungry then when I was eating as much as I want. That doesn't bother me. It's that feeling that I am just constantly thinking about food that I don't want.

  I can do a few things for that:

A calorie range : This give me a bit of leeway, I can eat more if I am hungry

Know the first week is tough, but it gets easier

Cut a little less, and lose less weight, or maybe add in some steps to offset

 

2) Fear of failure

When I first lost weight, it seemed fairly easy. And I felt all the endorphins when the scale was going down. But, when I was struggling, the opposite happened. I'd read fitness tips about how it was because you weren't consistent enough,  or not being strict enough in your tracking. So, I would double down on that, and then burn out super quick, and feel like a failure.

  To help;

Remind myself how much stronger I am

Remind myself how much more mobile, and graceful I am

Keep my plan the same for at least two weeks. If I'm not seeing a change, just keep the same course for at least two weeks before I change anything

Remember this is a long term plan, it may happen slowly, but that's okay

 

3) Burnout

I am planning to  do the cut for 6 weeks, but if after 4 weeks, I'm burnt out, I can stop.

Do about the same level of tracking as I do now. When I eat at someone's house, I guestimate.That's fine. I do weigh my food most of the time, but sometimes I'm in a hurry and it doesn't happen. I know what serving sizes look like.

 

That's all my rambling. If you read all this , thanks, and I hope it may help.

 

[Sovalis]

Very solid thoughts, EG. Nicely done. 

[The Most Loathed]

12 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

1) Worried about feeling hunger

...

2) Fear of failure

...

3) Burnout

These three things kept me from dieting for at least a couple years when I knew I should. When I finally did diet I removed the fear of failure by not having a pass/fail condition. You've kind of done this with your 4 week escape hatch. I think 4 weeks is a good place to put that btw. But regardless of how long you go, you're a success because you continue to do the work.