Gaining fat

[TheSavageBean]

I'm not eating unhealthily. I'm just eating a lot. It's in line with my goals to gain weight and academically I KNOW that weight doesn't come on as 100% LBM. I still feel that sinking feeling though when I weight myself and see the number go up. I mean, a big part of me cheers and happy dances because I know I'm going to push more weight this week, and another part of me goes, "1kg closer to diabetes". Why does fat mess with my head? Does it mess with yours NF? If you're curious, my diet looks like this:

10 weetbix + milk (2.5 cups)

1 tuna subway footlong

1 brotein shake + milk

Some eggs at some point (3-4)

Pasta, veggies and beef for dinner (big honking bowl or two)

Milkshake + Sustagen

I'm aware that if I wanted to gain less fat I could just eat cleaner or go paleo. I don't want this thread to be about my diet in particular, more just the psychology of fat gain while you're getting stronger, how you deal with it and how you prevent yourself from going "Right, time to eat 1000Cal deficit now."

[andygates]

Going "eek!" and switching to a deficit is probably a key reason my pre-2010's weights were all just dabbling. It was a real mental effort to embrace the bulk. I did it by focusing on my lifts instead of my body composition or the mirror, and I found a Rip quote that helped when I went "eek" - "You didn't start lifting weights to get smaller."

[Pat G]

You're training for real strength, not relative strength, not aesthetics or abs that could cut steel.

Eating heavy for a relatively short period of time in order to reach performance goals is good. Look at the old 70sbig motto, Adult Male> 200lbs.

LOL

Clean it up once you get where you want to be performance wise or when you're nearing your target weight.

and Weetbix?! i can't eat more than 2 before getting bored.

[TheSavageBean]

I like that quote Andy, thanks.

I'm just a weetbix kid at heart. I almost did a backflip (unfortunately not literally) when I read the packet, 4g protein each with decent other macros, can have as many in the bowl as I want, tastes like delicious man-food (i.e. no taste). Whenever I get bored, I just chant food is fuel until I conquer the plate. My friends say I get this really scary look when I stare at food. I normally respond with, "Hardest lift for gaining is fork to mouth. Hardest for losing is table pushaway."

What /is/ a good target weight anyway? I was going to stop around when I could see BF hitting danger zones (30% ish, I'm starting somewhere around 22-25%)

[leadchipmunk]

What /is/ a good target weight anyway? I was going to stop around when I could see BF hitting danger zones (30% ish, I'm starting somewhere around 22-25%)

That depends on what you want. Do you just want to weigh more, or do you want to build muscles and you are just happening to gain fat at the same time? Where do you want to finish at in regards to BF%? What are your plans through the whole process?

[Morrigainz]

In theory, I believe (although I'm no expert), if you are eating lots (and esp lots of protein) and lifting MOAR, your bf% shouldn't go up that dramatically compared to LBM. But leadchipmunk asks good questions - figure out the answers to those and you will be headed in the right direction.

As for your OP, yes, I have the same problem. I am absolutely freaking out about my weight and the amount of fat I feel on myself right now. It is partly due to beer, and partly due to woman things (I hope I hope I hope).

[TheSavageBean]

That depends on what you want. Do you just want to weigh more, or do you want to build muscles and you are just happening to gain fat at the same time? Where do you want to finish at in regards to BF%? What are your plans through the whole process?

These are good questions and I should have clarified them. It's actually a problem I suffer, I know the end point's on the other side of the mountain, and I know vaguely how to get through the mountain, I just don't know when to take the lunch breaks. My end goals (timeframe 3-5 years) are 220kg DL, 180kg Squat, 140kg BP, 100kg Snatch (the hard one) and I vaguely want to do some awesome gymnastic tricks. I'm not going to get there in one bulk/cut cycle (I presume/imagine) without going into the 40% BF range, and because one of the things I want from exercise is longevity I basically find the idea of keeping myself above 30% BF unacceptable. My general "mud map" plan is to follow a strength/Hypertrophy split until I'm pushing and pulling at a beginner level (and following form religiously), move on to 5x5 strength compounds with assistance lifts, then onto 5/3/1 when I'm intermediate.

I'm worried that my metabolism is conducive to fat storage, and that going above 30% BF for prolonged will be completely unavoidable during my strengthening periods and if I set the threshhold (for when to cut) too low that I'm going to be constantly interrupting the muscle development process for reasons of vanity (i.e. bad reasons) and long term health. So my question above was really "Should I set a 'when to stop bulking' threshhold based on time (e.g 9 week bulk), weight or BF%?"

MirGSS: The worst part is when you find a new place your body's been sneakily storing it the whole time.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Your weight lifting goals are almost the exact same as mine (500/400/300/200 lb DL/squat/bench/press). I want to get those to 1RM then make them my working weights. Honestly, it took me awhile to get over the fat gain when eating enough to gain strength. At the beginning of this year I tried to lose/maintain BF% while getting strength gains and it just didn't work, all my lifts flatlined. After I came back from my lifting break (training to run 10 miles), I was finally in the mindset of "Screw it, I know I'll put on fat, but I'm going to eat enough to make gains. I'll get strong and worry about looking sexy later."

Yeah, I preached that form was a consequence of function, but I never really took it into myself. I have now. I'm hanging at around 28-30% BF right now judging from what I look like nekid compared to what I used to when I measured by BF%. I seem to be haning right there and not getting any bigger. I don't measure right now because I'm honestly not worried about it anymore, that comes later when I'm deadlifting almost twice my bodyweight. Once I hit my lifting goals, then I'll increase rep ranges and drop the calories because I'll no longer be looking to make gains for awhile, but while I am, there's no way I'm eating at anything near a deficit.

Like I said, right now I'm hannign in the high 20's for BF% and it may even be dropping a bit ever since I started dropping the carbs and grains from my diet more and cleaning up dessert. I know you donb't want this to turn into a diet thread, so I won't address yours, but below I'll show you what I typically do for mine and you can take from it what you want.

Breakfast: Egg monster. You'll see this around, plenty of people do it. Mine is 18 eggs, 1 green pepper, 1 sweet onion, and 1 lb of bacon. I have 1/6th of that for breakfast every day, which totals 530 kcal, 54g protein, 40g fat, 4g carbs.

Lunch: 1 lb chicken breast, 520kcal, 108g protein, 4g fat, 0g carbs

Snacks: I bring 1-2 pieces of fruit since I'm so low carb with the rest and it won't cause big insulin spikes. Lets say 200kcal of all carbs, so 40g carbs. I'll do anything hear, my favorites are oranges, clementines, bananas, and apples. I used to do unts for snacks as well but have found I'm not that hungry anymore since I went off leangains and eat breakfast again.

Dinner: Whatever my wife or grandmother (living there while we house hunt) makes. usually about a 1200 kcal dinner of whatever, usually the typical American protein main with veggie and carb sides.

So with the above I'm eating 2450 kcal with minimum 162g of protein. I usually probably get another 30-50 from dinner, so I'm making my 1g per lb of lean bodyweight (LBM for me is about 185-190 lb). My BMR is about 2800, so I'm actually eating at a deficit on non-lifting days. After I lift, I come home and drink a quart of whole milk with 2 scoops of whey in it, which is 840 kcal, 78g protein, 36g fat, 54g carbs. That takes me to a surplus of about 500kcal for the 24 hours after lifting.

I pretty much do what I want on the weekends with regard to drinking and eating out, just try to make healthier choices with it. We also do icecream like twice a week.

This has worked awesome for me over the last month. My lifts are flying up again and I'm maintaining a slightly high BF% than before. If you are goign to worry about BF%, you may be able to glean something from above. But the biggest thing for me has finally been to not worry about it too much and make sure I give my body what it need for the 24 hours after I lift (3 times a week) and while I don't try to eat a big deficit during recovery like I used to, I now just try not to go over my BMR.

[Waldo]

These are good questions and I should have clarified them. It's actually a problem I suffer, I know the end point's on the other side of the mountain, and I know vaguely how to get through the mountain, I just don't know when to take the lunch breaks. My end goals (timeframe 3-5 years) are 220kg DL, 180kg Squat, 140kg BP, 100kg Snatch (the hard one) and I vaguely want to do some awesome gymnastic tricks. I'm not going to get there in one bulk/cut cycle (I presume/imagine) without going into the 40% BF range, and because one of the things I want from exercise is longevity I basically find the idea of keeping myself above 30% BF unacceptable. My general "mud map" plan is to follow a strength/Hypertrophy split until I'm pushing and pulling at a beginner level (and following form religiously), move on to 5x5 strength compounds with assistance lifts, then onto 5/3/1 when I'm intermediate.

I'm worried that my metabolism is conducive to fat storage, and that going above 30% BF for prolonged will be completely unavoidable during my strengthening periods and if I set the threshhold (for when to cut) too low that I'm going to be constantly interrupting the muscle development process for reasons of vanity (i.e. bad reasons) and long term health. So my question above was really "Should I set a 'when to stop bulking' threshhold based on time (e.g 9 week bulk), weight or BF%?"

The ratio of muscle building to fat storage varies with what BF% you are at. The ideal band for efficiency is 10% BF to 15% BF. Below or above that the body will tend to store fat at a higher rate.

If you cut down to 10%, if you are gaining at 1 lb/wk and gaining muscle at 0.5 lb/wk, you should be able to bulk for 11-12 weeks straight before hitting 15% BF. Losing at an average of ~0.75 lb/wk, 8 weeks of cutting should have you back down to 10% so you can get back to bulking. If you also add a couple weeks between each at maintence, with this timing you should go through 2 full cycles per year and never waiver outside of 15% or so (about where some ab definition begins). Sync this with periodic workout cycles and you are good to go.

If you want to do gymnastic tricks, cutting to a low BF% is most important of all. You need to be strong relative to your size. You should also consider doing precursor work, many of the coolest gymnastic feats take years to master, and many months of slow going prep work (elbow conditioning for example), strength does not transfer well from weights, if anything it actually is a hinderance, gymnastic shoulder strength is totally different.

From the sounds of it you've still got noob gains in your pocket. If that is the case cut and take advantage of the fact that you can gain while cutting. You aren't going to gain much muscle anyway if you've got a long way to go with beginner neural adaptations.

The "cleanness" of your eating has nothing to do with the ratio of muscle to fat gain.

I'm currently bulking at around 1.0-1.2 lb/wk (@10-11% BF), I'm not sure I've gained any fat, my BF% is actually declining a bit despite eating >4000 cal/day.

[alice-on]

I've been eating a lot to gain some mass, gained about 20lbs in mass actually, and I'm pretty sure my body fat % is the exact same as it was about 15 lbs lighter (around 20%), but sometimes the new size does get to me. I think it's just because 20lbs ago I thought that would be my size forever, but now that it has changed I have to change my mindset. I look great, I feel great, and I'm able to perform better with my workouts, and it's not exactly like you with "fat" necessarily, but gained size in general for me. Remember, any fat you put on you can take off. Fitness isn't just a physical thing, it's also mental. It's like, we have to exercise our thoughts and make sure they line up with reality, and not irrational fears (which are very easy to have when it comes to body composition).

[TheSavageBean]

Thank you for responses.

CoreyD - I'm curious how you eat 1lb chicken breast at what I presume is work lunchtime. Do you have a grill at the office? The only alternative I can think of for me is to cook it the night before and reheat in the microwave *shudder* Making the chicken breast dry AND overcooked. Lovely combination. I guess the Ronnie Coleman solution would come into play, bbq sauce the shit until it's half edible.

Thanks for the advice anyway, I think I need to get used to adopting a "get over it" attitude to match all the platitudes I tell myself and my friends all day. I was mostly concerned about this turning into a diet thread because I know grains are a little unpopular around here and I'm always aware of stepping on toes. I am actually iterating towards paleo (or to be more precise, eating animals and vegables only), and bulking (and more, not having the cash to bulk on junk food) is turning out good for me learning to eat a little cheaper and buy from the supermarket. The current diet I like because of scalability, I can drop the amount of weetbix, the eggs, the brotein, and the pasta and then I'll have a cutting diet.

Waldo - I actually drew a lot of inspiration to continue bulking from this post. Not because I just like to disagree, but because thinking about cutting again reminded me of the reason I want to get strong. I looked at myself for a long time, trying to imagine me without fat. Then I realised I didn't actually want to see it until I could push/pull decent numbers. That was the catalyst for me to bulk first and then cut. In any case, if I build muscle and strength train it should be easier to go on a cut afterwards, right? Because the muscle will need more fuel, and so the increased LBM will make my BMR go up. So I set basic performance goals, DL 100kg, Squat 80kg (or LP 120kg, whichever's first), bench 60kg, and I've decided to bulk until I'm approaching that, and then cut, keeping my lifts at stall/maintainance.

While I'm interested in Gymnastics it's not really a main goal. I am keen to do the prep work and make my joints stronger and more stable. I don't mind it takes 2-3 years, because I mean I'm planning on being alive for more than 60 more. I do lack a bit of patience, I'm kicking myself at the moment actually because I'm pretty sure I've learned the wrong motion for squat by going too heavy too fast and have to go back to basics and do 5000 form perfect squats. I have actually been gymming for a couple of months now, so I'm not sure how many noobgains I've got left. If I do still have them though, I'd rather spend it maximising my bulking gains.

Thank you very much for your insight.

(PS: update, I /have/ learned the wrong motion for squat, my shoulders come forward too much throwing me off balance and causing a good morning as I come up. A trainer (trains oly lifting peeps) confirmed it for me today, my routine has switched to 5x10 strict form squats bar or light weight only on squat days instead of weighted squats. I said I'd stay on it for 3000 repetitions and he didn't even blink an eye, "That should do it but you might need a bit more..."

Aburrrrr...)

Alice-on - I know that feeling, I dropped under 90kg I said "Never again". Now I'm peeking over it on purpose. I think the head games I'm playing with myself need to be better in general. I'm getting there, but all I can do is iterate, can't go from depression eating to superman without a few steps in between (or driving myself nuts)

[leadchipmunk]

CoreyD - I'm curious how you eat 1lb chicken breast at what I presume is work lunchtime. Do you have a grill at the office? The only alternative I can think of for me is to cook it the night before and reheat in the microwave *shudder* Making the chicken breast dry AND overcooked. Lovely combination. I guess the Ronnie Coleman solution would come into play, bbq sauce the shit until it's half edible.

Why reheat it? Cook it the night (or batch cook it the weekend) before and refrigerate it overnight. When lunch rolls around, it should still be slightly cool, and quite tasty.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Step 1- get 3 lb chicken, whatever your cut of preference. I typically do breasts but have lived thighs lately.

Step 2- trim up chicken if desired

Step 3- put in 30 minute marinade ($2 a bottle) for 60-90 minutes.

Step 4- bake at 375 until done. For boneless this is typically 10-12 minutes a side for me.

I take a lb a day. I typically eat it cold the first day and reheat in the microwave the others. The trick is to bring it in microwave safe containers that you keep mostly closed and keep the moisture in.