Librarian of Doom Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 ...that good always triumphs over evil...http://toriahamilton.blogspot.com/2011/01/fantasy-teaches-us-that-good-always.html Hobbit Ranger seeking balance (and cookies) Current Challenge Link to comment
azsf Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 ive always wondered exactly why the orcs were 'evil' in the tolkein universe. industrious sure, "dirty" definitely, but what is particularly evil about them? every race (bar hobbits i guess?) built giant empires and castles and armies. i mean when you consider the environment they lived in, you can't really blame them for wanting to carve out a piece of middle earth that wasn't half festering swamp / half active volcano... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] AZSF - lvl 4 assassin STR - 9 | DEX - 12 | STA - 10.5 | CON - 7 | WIS - 8.5 | CHA - 1 Link to comment
RandomWanderer Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 not if you read " A Song of Ice and Fire" series(aka game of thrones).. although I would say that that series isn't very " these people are all good, these people are all evil". I never believed that in real life and it doesn't fit to well for me in fantasy either. That being said I am a huge life long fantasy reader and gamer so I've read/played my share of good v evil rpgs.. I usually enjoy playing the evil dudes for some reason LOL( Siths, Nazi's, etc). Assassin: Rank: 6 (Disciple) STR: 10 DEX: 20 STA: 7 CON: 6 WIS: 6 CHA: 5[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]"Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he indeed is the noblest victor who conquers himself." - BuddhaHeight: 5'9" Weight: 215lbs Age: 34|RW's Chronicle(log)| RW's Introduction|Fitocracy|Challenge| Link to comment
leadchipmunk Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 In the more fairy tale aspect of fantasy, I've always seen it more of a way to give the poor masses hope, usually shown through a fight between the weak (poor/usurped) and the strong (rich/powerful). It usually takes the story of either poor defeats strong (Herr Korbes); poor moves up the societal ladder and becomes rich (Cinderella); or rich gets destroyed and becomes poor and finds out how bad it is, changes his ways and fights for the poor (some versions of Robin Hood).That being said I am a huge life long fantasy reader and gamer so I've read/played my share of good v evil rpgs.. I usually enjoy playing the evil dudes for some reason LOL( Siths, Nazi's, etc).The evil people have more fun. I usually choose them too on my first playthrough. Less rules allows for more fun. On that note, when I get serious into the games, I'll try for a chaotic good, same as I try to follow in life. Still allows for more options (don't have to follow the laws) but still helping those in need. Level 1 Woodwose STR 5 | DEX 2 | STA 1 | CON 2 | WIS 5 | CHA 4 WAR 0 | RNG 0 | SCT 0 | ASN 0 | MON 0 | DRU 0 | ADV 1 Current Challenge: Specialization is for Insects Previous Chapters: 1 Link to comment
azsf Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 haha game of thrones message is "everybody dies" [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] AZSF - lvl 4 assassin STR - 9 | DEX - 12 | STA - 10.5 | CON - 7 | WIS - 8.5 | CHA - 1 Link to comment
KAllen Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Klingons Rule!!!Feddies Drool!!!Suck it Romulans!!!Jedi's are insignificant!!! "A sharp knife is nothing without a sharp eye" - Koloth "Ya can't grill it until ya kill it" - Uncle Ted "If it ain't Metal...IT'S CRAP!!!" - Dee Snider Link to comment
--- Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 ive always wondered exactly why the orcs were 'evil' in the tolkein universe. industrious sure, "dirty" definitely, but what is particularly evil about them? every race (bar hobbits i guess?) built giant empires and castles and armies. i mean when you consider the environment they lived in, you can't really blame them for wanting to carve out a piece of middle earth that wasn't half festering swamp / half active volcano...The origins of orcs are a bit murky, but my Tolkien super-fan friends have explained at least two possibilities to me. They were originally elves who either joined or were captured and tortured to insanity by Sauron, then by a different name, centuries before the opening of LOTR. In the process of their corruption, they were transformed into orcs. I'm sure some fans better-read than I in the Tolkien-verse can offer up more information. Link to comment
Raincloak Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Most fairytales actually have some political purpose, at bottom. For instance, they espouse a moral that is designed to reinforce some social norm -- princesses triumph in stories because they are highborn, noble and pure, which reinforces the idea that royalty deserves its rank. Boys who assist elderly beggars get rewarded, which teaches the value of charity. Prideful folks get humbled, sometimes with violence, and so forth. You can assume that a story about an evil baron who winds up nailed to the town flagpole by his underwear was told by peasants who knew what real evil barons were like, and they were probably having a joke at his expense, since they didn't have any other way of getting revenge.As for the orcs business: it's detailed a bit in "The Silmarillion," but basically, the cosmogony of Middle-Earth has a foundation of Christian mythos overlaid with paganism. On top is God, under him are the Valar (essentially lesser gods, they're the ones who govern Middle-Earth), and under them are the Maiar (essentially angels, they serve the Valar in a variety of forms). Morgoth, inspired by Lucifer of course, was a very high and powerful Vala who wanted to create and rule worlds for himself, but only God had the power of true creation, so the best Morgoth could do was to twist, corrupt, and destroy. He caught some Elves (their names are never specified), imprisoned them in the pits of doom, and later on the first Orcs appeared, so it's assumed he made them from Elves, since he couldn't create people from nothing (and humans weren't around yet).Some of the Maiar went evil and joined Morgoth's army. Sauron was one of those and grew up to be his second in command. (Gandalf, the other wizards, and the Balrogs also were Maiar; thus Gandalf can more or less match a Balrog in power, and he came back from the dead because the Valar sent him back! But the wizards were forbidden to compete directly with Sauron, which is why Gandalf refuses to touch the One Ring.) Eventually the other Valar kicked Morgoth's ass and imprisoned him permanently by shoving him into the Outer Void, which left Sauron in charge of the Dark Lord business so far as Middle-Earth was concerned. Sauron's role is similar to that of Satan; in addition to the basic terror and domination, he also tricks people with flattery and trapped gifts, like the rings he gave to men which turned them into wraiths. Since he is a minor divine creature, he can't be permanently killed, but you can destroy his body, which has happened to him at least twice.A lot of people have observed that orcs and goblins don't really get a fair break in the Tolkien-verse, leading to accusations of racism etc. ... but plenty of other authors have made it up to them. I have seen several books and game settings that feature orcs in more complex, even positive lights. Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future. Hylian Assassin 5'5", 143 lbs. Half-marathon: 3:02It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue. Link to comment
CowboyMisterIndependent Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 This conversation is already a win. I love being part of the nerdmunity for reasons like this. And now I also want to reread a bunch of Tolkien.Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 2 Cowboy - Human Adventurer STR: 3 | DEX: 2 | STA: 2 | CON: 2 | WIS: 3 | CHA: 3 Link to comment
Daisy88 Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 For the Alliance!Everyone knows the Horde is evil... AND ugly. kek Level 1 Hylian Ranger| STR: 2 | DEX: 2 | STA: 2 | CON: 3 | WIS: 3 | CHA: 3 |FitocracyCurrent Challenge:Reset. Time to save the princess. Again.Dúnedain Team _____________________________________Change is the essential process of all existence. ~Spock Link to comment
Waldo Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 ...that you should always draft a running back with one of your first two picks, that you shouldn't draft a backup kicker, and that your primary kicker should always be your last pick. currently cutting battle log challenges: 21,20, 19,18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 don't panic! Link to comment
azsf Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Lol alliance...So, orcs are evil because they are corrupted by evil. I guess that makes about as much sense as any other answer i dont think you can really call "racism" on a fictional race, but it did strike me as weird that all the orcs were so reviled (in the movies). oh and why im asking questions about LotR, why was Gandalf so afraid of Moria? Did he know it had been invaded? Why would he be worried about passing through an epic home of the dwarves? It certainly seemed like he wasn't expecting them to all be wiped out (Gimli even cries about them being dead) so why would they be wary of passing through? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] AZSF - lvl 4 assassin STR - 9 | DEX - 12 | STA - 10.5 | CON - 7 | WIS - 8.5 | CHA - 1 Link to comment
Jcannon98188 Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Well in regards to Moria, there was a lot of things going on.First, it was actually Aragorn not Gandalf who did not want to go in. Aragorn had been there before, and knew something evil was going on. He convinced Gandalf that the best way forward was going OVER the mountains. Secondly, Moria is huge. It takes days to travel from one side to the other, and that is assuming that they don't get lost. Dwarven cities were known for their twists and turns. It was also pitch black in their. The WitchKing and the other 8 thrive in darkness. An ambush by the 9 against the fellowship in the dark would have ended very badly for the fellowship, as the 9 in darkness are almost as strong as Gandalf, and Gandalf would have had to given everything he had to protect the others (possibly causing him to die). There was also the issue that Moria has been silent for 20 years. They knew something was up in there. There were rumors of something called Durin's Bane residing there (later discovered to be the Balrog). Gimli's cries of them being dead was more of a realization that they actually were dead. He knew they were before that, but didn't want to believe that they actually were. But once he was inside, he realized the truth, and let out that cry of despair. Link to comment
Jcannon98188 Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 As for the orcs business: it's detailed a bit in "The Silmarillion," but basically, the cosmogony of Middle-Earth has a foundation of Christian mythos overlaid with paganism. On top is God, under him are the Valar (essentially lesser gods, they're the ones who govern Middle-Earth), and under them are the Maiar (essentially angels, they serve the Valar in a variety of forms). Morgoth, inspired by Lucifer of course, was a very high and powerful Vala who wanted to create and rule worlds for himself, but only God had the power of true creation, so the best Morgoth could do was to twist, corrupt, and destroy. He caught some Elves (their names are never specified), imprisoned them in the pits of doom, and later on the first Orcs appeared, so it's assumed he made them from Elves, since he couldn't create people from nothing (and humans weren't around yet).The Balrog are technically stronger than Gandalf if I am not mistaken. Gandalf was a Maiar, but was in a weakened mortal form, and I believe the Balrog were actually still in Maiar form. Gandalf "broke the rules" by unleashing his full force on the Balrog, which is why he came out as the stronger "Gandalf the White" because he was accessing his Maiar power.It is interesting to note, the hierarchy of gods in LOTR is very similar to the "Gods" in The Elder Scrolls. I actually love reading about both TES and LOTR mythology. Both of which are super rich in detail, you can get lost for hours reading and studying them. Link to comment
SirEarl Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Even if evil wins firstFirefly/SerenityEven when the lines between the two are blurredAngelEven though evil is strongerStreet FighterEven when hell is on EarthBuffy "You don't life for be sad, no?" Link to comment
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