LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[kawatan]

Bisexuality doesn't explicitly exclude trans people... and neither does being straight or gay, for that matter. Some people are more comfortable with it than others, and depending on what attracts someone, they might be attracted to, say, cismen and transwomen who didn't get bottom surgery, because they're attracted to people with penises of any gender (but not people without penises, regardless of gender). But there isn't really a word for that, so they might call themselves straight (if they're female) or gay (if they're male) because cis people are way more common than trans people.

 

Anyway, my point is, when someone says they're bisexual, they don't necessarily mean they're not attracted to trans people. They might or their might not.

This is very very true, but I'm a mathematician, which means I like being very very precise with my definitions. (Which also means I can be very pedantic. Sorry.) I like the implications of "pansexual" and the fact that it makes people consider the various options beyond the cisgendered norm - and, in fact, beyond the gender binary itself. So I prefer it over "bisexual" because I like having those discussions. If I had to put it mathematically, I'd say "my romantic/sexual attraction to people is statistically independent of genitalia as well as statistically independent of gender identity", but that's long and most people don't really understand what statistical independence really is, so "pansexual" is good shorthand. 

[TankGrrl]

^^^^ THIS

YAY for Maths nerds!!!

[Draken273]

LGBT stuff always confuses me. Mostly becuse when you really start to get into it, theres so many different ways for one to "classify" themselves and it just makes me wonder what ever happened to just being...human. You know, just being "you"? I'm not even sure if that makes sense right now but im gonna hope for the best.
 

[Tarmac]

Can't lie. For completely self serving reasons I'm vastly more concerned about the SCOTUS ruling on DOMA. My partner and I are both active duty Navy, so, we're getting worried about what will happen when she comes up for orders in a year and when I start deploying to the Horn of Africa later this year. Yes, come August things will be better when the memo that DOD recently put out takes effect for the military, but there are still some very scary and shitty things that could happen without us having equal rights to heterosexual couples in the military. We aren't married yet (but we could be since we're stationed in Washington DC presently), but I foresee it on the not too distant horizon. Honestly, within the next year in all likely hood.

 

I understand the concerns - it's a pretty scary situation to be in right now. We have some friends in a similar spot. I hope things work out for you.  I have to admit we've been rather fortunate; Rhode Island is making progressive steps, and we'll be moving to New York City in August, so we're likely covered whichever way we decide to go in the next year or so (probably Rhode Island - my girlfriend has had her wedding pictured for years...it's just my job to show up, which is entirely fine with me  ) .

 

DOMA, particularly, is an interesting matter - truly, it's one of the few times where I think I'm almost grateful for the Court's conservative majority  and stance on federal vs. state rights (then Scalia opens his mouth again). I think the angle that might ultimately win out is whether or not 'marriage' as a social institution traditionally regulated by the states, can be defined by the federal government, without actually addressing - at least head on - the issue of marriage rights. That, honestly, is probably where Prop 8 will come in, and even that will probably only be a matter of equality due to the nature of existing tax laws...

 

...of course, they could surprise me and see the merit of the prima facie issue...and that would be truly something to see. It would be one of those times that I think I could honestly say I had faith of the bulk of the people in my profession. However, it would also destroy my FantasySCOTUS average this term. (Not kidding: www.fantasyscotus.net ) 

 

Either way, we'll be in for some fairly interesting debates - or at least I think so. Then again, as my girlfriend politely reminds me, the law student's definition of "interesting" rarely matches up with everyone else's....

[ModernSpartacus]

Lesbian here, but I don't really identify with the whole gay scene thing and I'm not really an activist. 

[ModernSpartacus]

LGBT stuff always confuses me. Mostly becuse when you really start to get into it, theres so many different ways for one to "classify" themselves and it just makes me wonder what ever happened to just being...human. You know, just being "you"? I'm not even sure if that makes sense right now but im gonna hope for the best.

 

YES. ALL THE AWARDS. THIS. I hate how everyone feels the need to call themselves female bisexual genderqueer transexuals or whatever, just to feel unique and special. Everyone is equal and everyone is human. If people want to be treated the same, why keep labeling yourself to be different? uh, rant over.

[kawatan]

YES. ALL THE AWARDS. THIS. I hate how everyone feels the need to call themselves female bisexual genderqueer transexuals or whatever, just to feel unique and special. Everyone is equal and everyone is human. If people want to be treated the same, why keep labeling yourself to be different? uh, rant over.

Because people assume I'm something I'm not when they try to treat me like a "normal" person and that bothers me. Because apparently since my relationship looks heterosexual I must be straight! But I'm NOT.

[ModernSpartacus]

Because people assume I'm something I'm not when they try to treat me like a "normal" person and that bothers me. Because apparently since my relationship looks heterosexual I must be straight! But I'm NOT.

But why do you not want people to think you're normal? I don't know what your orientation is or whatever but why do people need to know every detail of your romantic and sexual life? You like dressing as a guy sometimes and a girl at others? Thats fine. We don't need to know. We love you anyway. 

[kawatan]

But why do you not want people to think you're normal? I don't know what your orientation is or whatever but why do people need to know every detail of your romantic and sexual life? You like dressing as a guy sometimes and a girl at others? Thats fine. We don't need to know. We love you anyway. 

Saying "I'm attracted to people regardless of their sexuality" is very different from giving them the blow by blow of my romantic/sexual life. One is "I really like sushi"; the second is a glowing review of every sushi-ya I've had the pleasure to eat at. Maybe I'd like to talk about sushi now and then, so it's kind of useful to have people know that I enjoy it! 

 

And apparently the instant I'm in a heterosexual relationship, people assume I'm straight because most people in hetero relationships are straight. It's a "fair assumption" in a sense, but I dislike people making that assumption. 

[ModernSpartacus]

Saying "I'm attracted to people regardless of their sexuality" is very different from giving them the blow by blow of my romantic/sexual life. One is "I really like sushi"; the second is a glowing review of every sushi-ya I've had the pleasure to eat at. Maybe I'd like to talk about sushi now and then, so it's kind of useful to have people know that I enjoy it! 

 

And apparently the instant I'm in a heterosexual relationship, people assume I'm straight because most people in hetero relationships are straight. It's a "fair assumption" in a sense, but I dislike people making that assumption. 

Fair enough, you have some good points! I guess I'd get annoyed if people assumed I'm something I'm not, I can relate to that. It's just when people label themselves so specifically, it irritates me. I just want you to know that I'm not trying to insult you here, I'm just trying to get my broad opinion across, it's not personal.

[pandraztic]

Lesbian here, but I don't really identify with the whole gay scene thing and I'm not really an activist.

Don't forget that not everyone who talks about things happening are activists. The closest I get to being part of the "scene" is that I'm part of OutServe and we get together once a week to have dinner, do some job mentoring, or go somewhere as a group of friends. Because frankly, activism is way over my head and those folks scare me sometimes. Especially when they yell at you for not doing enough because you didn't want to cause a scene and "stand up for your rights" under DADT.

[Avistew]

Some things are an important part of our identity, and will matter more to some people than to some others. The labeling often is less about telling other people what box to put you in, and more about realising that whatever it is that you are, you're not alone in it.

 

Sometimes it's just relevant. A bi or pan woman who's currently dating a man might want to comment that a girl who just walked by is pretty without people going "but you're straight, not gay!" as though there weren't any other options. And as a poly person, it's important to me that people don't assume I'm cheating if they see me flirting with, or even kissing/holding hands with someone who isn't the boyfriend they know me to have. Because a lot of the judgement we get is based on the contrast between what people expect and what's reality, it's useful to just let them know.

 

I could think "it's not their business that I'm poly", and sure, I can see that. But people might end up interacting with my family. I might want to mention my boyfriends. If a straight, mono person can talk about their husband and nobody accuses her of shoving it in everyone's faces, or tells her to just shut up because it's disgusting, other people in other forms of relationship should be allowed to do the same. You don't have to talk about your sex life in details, you might just want to talk about the movie you saw yesterday, and not want to HAVE to say, instead of the natural "My boyfriends and I went to see a movie" or "My girlfriend and I went to see a movie", have to censor that part out because some people might be bothered by it.

 

Sure, it would be better to just be able to talk about things without people being confused and saying things like "wait, you're talking like your ex was a woman... but you're with a man! Did you use to be a lesbian?". But people do, and so if you're not "normal" you end up having to explain just so people will leave you alone. "Seeming normal" is fine, I guess, but I don't want to have to actively pretend I'm someone I'm not. I don't want to have to actively hide people in my current life or from my past. And things like that are required in order to "seem normal", and if you don't correct people when they make assumptions, it can lead to pretty uncomfortable situations because people will just assume the wrong things.

 

I'm not sure if this comic has been linked here before (it's not safe for work), but it's a comic by Erika Moen about why it can be a problem for a woman in a relationship with a man to be assumed to be straight. It doesn't go into all the details but it's a really good first glance.

[ModernSpartacus]

Don't forget that not everyone who talks about things happening are activists. The closest I get to being part of the "scene" is that I'm part of OutServe and we get together once a week to have dinner, do some job mentoring, or go somewhere as a group of friends. Because frankly, activism is way over my head and those folks scare me sometimes. Especially when they yell at you for not doing enough because you didn't want to cause a scene and "stand up for your rights" under DADT.

True, very true. I agree with all the points made, maybe activist was the wrong word. I am a supporter of gay rights, obviously, but not a shove it in your face gay.

[pandraztic]

True, very true. I agree with all the points made, maybe activist was the wrong word. I am a supporter of gay rights, obviously, but not a shove it in your face gay.

Yeah, that kinda gay is taxing on everyone's nerves. The closest to shove it in your face gay that I get is my partner and I hold hands as we walk about town, just like any other couple ever.

[tseecka]

Hey all!

 

I've given up trying to affix a label to myself, as I always seem to find "issues" with one or another, places where I don't feel comfortable adhering, and I don't want to appropriate a community's term if I don't feel like I fully fit the definition, so...I'm cisgendered female, and I'm currently in a relationship with a cisgendered female partner. I call it my "lesbian relationship" but I don't define as a lesbian--it just makes it easier for others to understand. It's a good enough place to be though, and I don't really feel the need to define myself with a label. I'm beyond happy with her, and hope to be for many more years!

 

Don't know how often I'll be dropping in but thought I'd pop by and say hello!

[ModernSpartacus]

Yeah, that kinda gay is taxing on everyone's nerves. The closest to shove it in your face gay that I get is my partner and I hold hands as we walk about town, just like any other couple ever.

I will happily display affection in public, as much as any person, but when people walk around wearing pink man thongs screaming out 'gay of the day', it is too much.

[I-Jo]

That goes for almost any situation of ANY couple (least to me)

I don't want to see ANY couple of any gender of any sexuality flaunting themselves outside an "appropriate" forum- sure there are times being overly sexy is the name of the game.  If someone by some random miracle were having a straight pride parade... I wouldn't want to see straight folks running around tonguing each other.  That's foul.  PDA has it's limits- no matter who you or what label you are.

 

I have a gay friend who I LOVE seeing his pictures with his boyfriend- it makes me heart swell- because it's just the same picture of any couple- its heart-warming genuine affection that is just normal cute moments caught on camera- rather than ridiculous barf romantic I want to vomit "love" crap.

 

I don't want to see that from anyone- straight or anything else. 

[Raikas]

 If people want to be treated the same, why keep labeling yourself to be different? uh, rant over.

 

I think part of the labelling is that without a label people can't point out where inequalities exist.  And in terms of putting on a display, in my experience the most "in your face" people are either really young and still working out who they are (so they'll outgrow it) or are people who have faced some pretty hideous explicit prejudices and want to get everything out in the open early so that they can avoid those reactions in the future.

[Zeuel]

I think if more people were openly bi then I probably would have come out at a much younger age than 28. Speaking of bi invisibility, my own dad was bi but I never knew it because I only ever saw him in straight relationships(and also because he was a pretty hardcore conservative who called me "girly boy" and "f*gula" growing up).

[AceVixen]

Hey, bi-girl here married to bi-guy. Not sure if two bi's make a hetero-relationship, but there it is. (Technically I supposed

I'm pan, but I never use the word as I assume people won't know what it means, and because 'bi' is what I was thinking when I was coming out to myself, so I guess that label and I have history).

 

On the subject of labels... in an ideal world we would all just be ourselves, with no need for them. I think every day we get closer and closer to that idyllic future. But that's not where we are now, and we need names for things in order to be able to stand up and defend them. I also think the identity is important. As a girl in a mono relationship with a guy you might think it's not important to me to be 'out' to people and have that identity, but it is. People often say some nasty stuff around you when they don't know you are queer... had a lesbian friend tell me once that 'bi girls don't count, they aren't really queer', had someone at work rant about 'choosing to be gay' and then when I challenged this was told I didn't know what I was talking about(!) Sometimes I also just feel a little out of place being put in the 'straight females' box. I'm totally cis, but I'm a bit of a tom-boy and I just don't 'get' most girly stuff. Actually for that reason I also sometimes get put in the 'gay females' box, which is equally uncomfortable, especially when I then try to introduce my husband to someone who thought I was a lesbian...

[swaffe]

Hi everyone!

 

I identify my gender as other, because I have personally never identified as female or male, though at times I have felt male and at others I have felt female,  though most of the time I feel like neither.

 

I am also sexually attracted to both genders, and have had serious relationships with both.  I can totally relate to everyone else who has mentioned feeling out of place when they are bi, or pan-sexual, or any queer identity that encompasses both, because I have had people judge me and assume things about me on both sides of the fence (both queer and straight people).  Though in most cases those closest to me have been supportive.

 

The worst part of it seems to be when you decide to spend your life with someone.  I can't believe how many people have assumed that the girls where "just a phase" now that I starting to have serious discussions about marriage with the man in my life (I am biologically female).  They assume that because my relationship appears hetero-normative that it automatically makes it hetero-normative, even though they have no idea what it looks like on the inside.  I guess I understand when casual acquaintances assume it because they most likely never knew about the gender and sexuality to begin with, but if they did it just hurts that they assume that I've changed my mind.  I just don't understand how people don't realize that both the gender non-identity and the pan-sexuality are a part of me and always will be regardless of who I spend my life with. 

[obax]

YES. ALL THE AWARDS. THIS. I hate how everyone feels the need to call themselves female bisexual genderqueer transexuals or whatever, just to feel unique and special. Everyone is equal and everyone is human. If people want to be treated the same, why keep labeling yourself to be different? uh, rant over.

 

'Equal' does not mean 'same'. I don't think people want to be treated the same as everyone else, at least I don't, but I do want to be treated equally. Look at this comic, and ignore the political reference. The one on the left is people being treated the same (they all have the same sized box), the one on the right is people being treated equally (they have different sized boxes, but they all get the same end result). Those are two very different things to me, and I, for one, don't have much use for the same sized box as everyone else.

 

I think the thing about labeling is, it's human nature to create groups or categories for things, including oneself. Evolutionarily speaking, it was immensely useful to be able to categorize things, like food/not food, predator/prey, friend/enemy, etc. Obviously these binary categories aren't the whole story, and as human society evolves so too do the categories.

 

I have more of a problem with labels given to an individual by someone other than oneself, be it another individual or society as a whole, or rather, that the idea that the label I give to you is the only label there is. It's natural for me to give you a label, but I personally don't think for a second that it's the right one, or the only one, or that it will even be a valid one once I get to know you better. Some people do think that, and to me, that's where prejudice and discrimination comes from.

 

I do agree with you that I don't like it when people shove it in my face. This goes for any label, not just ones related to sexuality or gender. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate and respect, and even celebrate, the labels one gives to oneself, even if they're completely different from the labels I give to myself. But for me it's important to separate judgement from labels, the two don't really belong together as far as I'm concerned. I don't have to agree or understand, I simply have to learn and accept.

[prefect42]

Hey everyone, just saying hi as a gay dude around these parts.  I'm a bit of a NF old-timer, but haven't been around much the last year or two.  I'm really glad to see this space exist--would've been really nice when I was first coming around here!

 

I won't wade too much into the above debate re: labels and identity, but wanted to direct you to a somewhat hilarious interview with Edie Windsor (the NY woman who challenged DOMA up to the Supreme Court) in the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/magazine/edith-windsor-takes-back-what-she-said-about-topless-gay-activists.html.  The pertinent quote: 

 

Did you participate in the Dyke March the day before gay pride? 
Well, I loved it, I thought it was great. I sang with them. Some went topless. I used to wish they would put on clothes. I was once saying something about disliking some of the extreme stuff to a straight friend, and she said, “Edie, somebody has to keep pushing the envelope.†I said: “I think you’re right. I apologize for everything I thought.â€

[spezzy]

Hey everyone, just saying hi as a gay dude around these parts. I'm a bit of a NF old-timer, but haven't been around much the last year or two. I'm really glad to see this space exist--would've been really nice when I was first coming around here!

Prefect!!!!!! <3

(If this post seems brief or anything like that it's because I'm using my phone and don't want to type a lot )

[prefect42]

Prefect!!!!!! <3

(If this post seems brief or anything like that it's because I'm using my phone and don't want to type a lot )

 

I'm offended that my return didn't even warrant a gif in your post.  Pfft.

 

Happy to be back, and clearly have some catching up to do with all these new whippersnappers.