LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Artinum]

Depends what you mean by "safe space". If you want it to be a thread about rainbows and puppies and sunshine, it's going to be safe - but it's also going to be dull, and pretty useless. Fact is, there's still a world out there where there are people who don't like us. I'd rather we had a thread that acknowledges such people exist and tries to understand why they exist, what we can do to stay safe and, perhaps, find a way to change the world to make it a better place.

 

Please feel free to set up the Rainbows, Puppies and Sunshine thread. I probably won't be subscribing.

[SevenofSeven]

LOL, not rainbows, but "safe" as in we can carry on as we have been and not have to defend our decisions to those who do not agree with our life choices, within a thread that is essentially for us to have our own discussions about topics which may be relevant to our community, gay marriage, adoption, transitioning, love, life, happiness, maybe puppies.

Maybe I just can't express what I mean very well. I am open to debate, it makes things interesting and an exchange of opinions and information is a very good thing, but thread jacking can be discouraging.

[Syn]

 

I still think we need that group hug

 

I'm in, but only if everyone keeps their hands to themselves. A handless group hug. Like a

.

(I googled it just for kicks and there are actually youtube vids of slow-mo chest bumps. The Internet is amazing.)

 

 

 

Not letting them feel free to express their bigotry is just as bad as us being discriminated against, so for us to limit their freedoms for the sake of our own comfort is just as bad, in my opinion.

 

Wow, I don't agree with that. Sounds like the argument often trotted by religious bigots, "you trying to keep me from oppressing you is oppressing me!".

 

When bigots are allowed to spout out their hateful rethoric or "casual" derogatory comments unchallenged, they are perpetuating and legitimizing the systemic belittlement, dehumanization and ensuing discrimination of minorities that exists in our society. That's the very reason why stereotypes and the like exist - they're long-term propaganda tools to keep oppressed populations down.

When we tell them to stop, we're just... hurting their feelings. It's not anywhere near as bad.

 

I can totally see where you're coming from though - I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume that you're from the US, where personal freedoms and the (oft misunderstood) First Amendment are held in the highest regards, whereas where I come from there are anti hate-speech laws because our government acknowledges that fact, and as a society we're more focused on group harmony than individual freedom. We're all deeply influenced by the culture we live in.

 

Now of course we have to consider the way we address this issue - there's a time for torches and pitchforks, but there's also a time for diplomacy and trying to build bridges.

But I don't think this is an area where the "pick your battles" strategy is applicable - nothing good can ever come from letting bigotry prosper unchallenged.

[Bekah]

I'm in, but only if everyone keeps their hands to themselves. A handless group hug. Like a

.

(I googled it just for kicks and there are actually youtube vids of slow-mo chest bumps. The Internet is amazing.)

 

 

 

Wow, I don't agree with that. Sounds like the argument often trotted by religious bigots, "you trying to keep me from oppressing you is oppressing me!".

 

When bigots are allowed to spout out their hateful rethoric or "casual" derogatory comments unchallenged, they are perpetuating and legitimizing the systemic belittlement, dehumanization and ensuing discrimination of minorities that exists in our society. That's the very reason why stereotypes and the like exist - they're long-term propaganda tools to keep oppressed populations down.

When we tell them to stop, we're just... hurting their feelings. It's not anywhere near as bad.

 

I can totally see where you're coming from though - I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume that you're from the US, where personal freedoms and the (oft misunderstood) First Amendment are held in the highest regards, whereas where I come from there are anti hate-speech laws because our government acknowledges that fact, and as a society we're more focused on group harmony than individual freedom. We're all deeply influenced by the culture we live in.

 

Now of course we have to consider the way we address this issue - there's a time for torches and pitchforks, but there's also a time for diplomacy and trying to build bridges.

But I don't think this is an area where the "pick your battles" strategy is applicable - nothing good can ever come from letting bigotry prosper unchallenged.

I see what you are saying, I just think the militant fighting approach is never the right way, and telling them how wrong or bad they are for their opinions are from the beginning (speaking solely in context of an online forum, in "real life" or in the event someone is being threatened is very different) , is less effective in changing them, and since that is the ultimate goal then why not start there? Causing people to defend their opinions sometimes only leads them to be reinforced, whereas showing them the fallacy of those opinions without directly "calling them out" (similar to what ColoQ said in his post) may be more effective.

For example, with the previous posts by Insanity, because he and I have had several positive interactions on other threads, he chose to respond to me as more questioning and clarification of my intent, rather than feeling attacked or threatened by my disagreement with him, and I just feel that in general (meaning outside of our safe space) his thoughts and feelings could be addressed more positively and he may have had a much different response than feeling attacked or threatened, and it may have changed his thoughts on the LGBTQA community, rather than reinforcing the "militant gays" stereotype.

I realize there are times when this is not the right approach, and that because many of us in our real everyday, experience extreme hatred and discrimination, and are angry and dont want to talk to a bigoted person for any reason, this isn't going to appease that anger, but it does get results, and anger is not as good at bringing positive change, even though it feels good and is a valid response. So to each his own, this is the way I feel is best for me, and if you are unable or unwilling to interact with people in an online forum, who may just be ignorant and misguided, rather than truly "hate" us, and possibly change that, then do what you feel you should, and I will do the same.

[insanity]

I see what you are saying, I just think the militant fighting approach is never the right way, and telling them how wrong or bad they are for their opinions are from the beginning (speaking solely in context of an online forum, in "real life" or in the event someone is being threatened is very different) , is less effective in changing them, and since that is the ultimate goal then why not start there? Causing people to defend their opinions sometimes only leads them to be reinforced, whereas showing them the fallacy of those opinions without directly "calling them out" (similar to what ColoQ said in his post) may be more effective.

For example, with the previous posts by Insanity, because he and I have had several positive interactions on other threads, he chose to respond to me as more questioning and clarification of my intent, rather than feeling attacked or threatened by my disagreement with him, and I just feel that in general (meaning outside of our safe space) his thoughts and feelings could be addressed more positively and he may have had a much different response than feeling attacked or threatened, and it may have changed his thoughts on the LGBTQA community, rather than reinforcing the "militant gays" stereotype.

I realize there are times when this is not the right approach, and that because many of us in our real everyday, experience extreme hatred and discrimination, and are angry and dont want to talk to a bigoted person for any reason, this isn't going to appease that anger, but it does get results, and anger is not as good at bringing positive change, even though it feels good and is a valid response. So to each his own, this is the way I feel is best for me, and if you are unable or unwilling to interact with people in an online forum, who may just be ignorant and misguided, rather than truly "hate" us, and possibly change that, then do what you feel you should, and I will do the same.

Just to clarify, my thoughts on the LGBTQA community aren't negative. As far as I'm concerned everyone can participate in their activities, whether it's a choice or not, given that they're consenting adults, not hurting anyone elses physical person or property and not violating another persons rights.

 

I don't feel a negative opinion of anyone that participates in activities I myself may not participate in or that I myself may feel uncomfortable participating in, so long as they don't violate those three conditions. As I've said before in this thread, I'm an ally, but I'm also someone in the group that many of you are trying to convince that you're just people, same as them, and merely wanted to throw in my two cents on the discussion that was going on at the time on how that could possibly be achieved.

[Hit]

I think in a lot of cases, its ignorance that leads to intolerance. My guess would be most people havent met a trans person, so its easy to parrot old jokes and be (perhaps unintentionally) hateful. Going in and adding a presence and saying "hey this is actually really disrespectful to queer folk" is how we open up a dialogue that leads to positive change.

Thats a lot different from popping up in a thread and saying "yeh i dont see anything wrong with you people being kicked out of stores". I am militant in response to people who continue to push their ignorance regardless of any discussion. Id act the same way if i dropped in on the mens thread, asked people to not be so intolerant on trans people and then be met with biological determinism or gender=sex=genitals arguments.

Pick your battles for sure, but we shouldnt be afraid to fight for our rights.

[Hit]

Double post! Heres laura jane grace.

[Flex Luthor]

Haven't been on the boards in a while. I can't say that I've personally seen any intolerance towards gay, trans, or any people in between ever. I'd appreciate a link to be honest.

 

<3 to ALL the peoples, I've possibly missed this thread most of all.

[Hit]

Mens thread, one or two pages back - ladyboy discussion

This thread - page 54 - start of the insanity fight

Neither of these are people coming out and saying "lol i hate queer folk eww right", but they reflect those ingrained intolerant attitudes. The broader discussion is born from that: what is a safe space and where is the line for entering anothers safe space.

[Bekah]

Haven't been on the boards in a while. I can't say that I've personally seen any intolerance towards gay, trans, or any people in between ever. I'd appreciate a link to be honest.

 

<3 to ALL the peoples, I've possibly missed this thread most of all.

and I missed you <3

[Flex Luthor]

Mens thread, one or two pages back - ladyboy discussion

This thread - page 54 - start of the insanity fight

Neither of these are people coming out and saying "lol i hate queer folk eww right", but they reflect those ingrained intolerant attitudes. The broader discussion is born from that: what is a safe space and where is the line for entering anothers safe space.

 

Ah ok that would explain because of aforementioned absence. Thanks.

 

and I missed you <3

 

<3

[Flex Luthor]

Alright my thoughts on this thread.

 

I saw no homophobia nor did I see anyone really being made to feel unwelcome because they are LGTBQA. I also thought that Insanity made 1 excellent point. And that point was that we tend to shy away from things that are different. The interesting thing about that though(downright hilarious sometimes), is that ALL people have more similarities than we do differences if you dig beyond the surface. if we truly want to enact change, acceptance and love we need to find ways for people to see them and forget the bs that makes us different.

 

HOWEVER, all that being said, I don't believe this is the place for that type of discussion. You wouldn't like it too much if you called your best friend to vent and instead they lectured you on your life choices. Well that's what this is. We're the best friend that just listens. I'd be more than happy to discuss any of the above points elsewhere on the forum but right here isn't the place.

 

I do think someone brought up a fair argument though(can't remember who, sorry) that this thread can be somewhat inactive at times other than people saying hello. So we'll just have to work hard to change that

[Phytomancer]

I was the one who started it all. I posted that photo. It came out of my ignorance and the comment that I thought was harmless. Turns out I have hurt a lot of people. I am sorry that I have caused all of you to feel this way. I thank those who understand that I, and many people, will need to learn a little more about making things right.

 

I also thank Flex Luther who have brought it to men's page and to my attention, or else I'll never notice that the words I typed are hurtful. Please forgive me and some of the ignorant men like me who need some patient shush and a friendly shove in a right direction.

 

We all come to this board to better ourselves and stay to be a better person. Thank you for making sure that we can improve in many dimensions.  

[Bekah]

I was the one who started it all. I posted that photo. It came out of my ignorance and the comment that I thought was harmless. Turns out I have hurt a lot of people. I am sorry that I have caused all of you to feel this way. I thank those who understand that I, and many people, will need to learn a little more about making things right.

 

I also thank Flex Luther who have brought it to men's page and to my attention, or else I'll never notice that the words I typed are hurtful. Please forgive me and some of the ignorant men like me who need some patient shush and a friendly shove in a right direction.

 

We all come to this board to better ourselves and stay to be a better person. Thank you for making sure that we can improve in many dimensions.  

and THIS is why I love it here. We arent perfect, but we own our shit, all of us, and that is awesome Thank you for your apology and Simon (I just cant call you FL...without peeing...sorry) you are awesome for bringing it to their attention. Yay for cohesiveness   

[Thrillho]

It's a tricky subject.  Any situations so closely tied to someone's feelings and identity is always tricky, and saying the wrong thing is INCREDIBLY easy... but it's awesome when mistakes and misunderstandings and sometimes straight up ignorance can be chalked up to experience, everyone hugs and moves forwards.

 

...

 

Are you sure we're on the Internet? That sort of thing never happens on the Internet.  There should be poop-flinging by now.

[Teirin]

Hi Phyto!  Thank you for coming by and apologizing and explaining.  Glad you learned :-)  We all mess up sometimes but we can learn from it.

[Frost of the Gloaming]

I am sorry to any pre-op post-op transgender people out there that I made uncomfortable with my callous joke (adams apple) I honestly meant no harm, which after being called fag everyday during highschool I should know better, it still doesn't give me an excuse.

[Hit]

 

 

Are you sure we're on the Internet? That sort of thing never happens on the Internet.  There should be poop-flinging by now.

To be fair, hands were dirtied. But every now and then there's a rainbow at the end of the storm. Thanks to Flex for taking point and standing up for us; you're a champion.

[Flex Luthor]

To be fair, hands were dirtied. But every now and then there's a rainbow at the end of the storm. Thanks to Flex for taking point and standing up for us; you're a champion.

 

I didn't really do much of anything to be honest. I think you deserve a ton of credit by being one of the main voices to speak up about it. I hadn't been on the forums in months and would not have seen it if it weren't for you.

[Hit]

well aren't you just so sweet you make sugar taste just like salt

[BarrensChat]

edit: nvm

[Bekah]

Call it the Sociologist in me if you will...but I would love to know...do you think more people of non-heterosexual origins lean toward polyamory than hetero's or is it just we admit it more easily?

[Teirin]

It could be that non-heterosexuals are just more accustomed to not following societal norms and are more comfortable with the idea? Just a guess!

On a somewhat related note: I was wondering in anyone here is familiar with the webcomic Kimchi Cuddles? I have no idea if it's popular. Is it a good representation? It was mentioned on one of the asexual communities after Ace was added as a character. I've been wondering about it. It seems quite nice.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Anathema]

Oh, hai! Just found this group. And just in time to see the poly question.

 

It's funny. I'm a bi cis female married to a dude and we've had various secondary type relationships over the 20+ (yikes! how did that happen!?!) years we've been married. Last year I went through a very, very awful, drama-filled breakup with a woman I'd been pretty serious with. And it was sort of germane to my Challenge logs because I was so sad that it was hard to motivate for fitness, plus she'd been my fitness buddy so even tracking felt triggery . . . and of course I went through a phase of drinking too much because, well, drama-filled breakup.

 

What's my point here? Just that I have a super supportive group of NF friends, and I was talking about having an emotionally awful time and, well . . . I'm pretty out in my real life as a bi / poly / kinky person, but I was definitely sort of closeting myself in my comments because explaining my whole relationship situation seemed like so much effort. It's interesting, it's not like I think any of my fellow Scouts would have unfriended me and called me a filthy heathen or anything but . . . it's weird when one suddenly finds oneself doing that kind of thing. Old closet habits like saying, "My . . . um . . . friend."

 

Anyway, that was a lot of personal blah blah blah for an intro, but anyway. Hi! Nerdy bi runner chick being happy to have stumbled on this group!

[clrknight]

I'm new to the forums and found this topic and got super excited!

 

I'm a very strong ally of the LGBTQA movement, but being a straight cis-male, people like to think that I'm not "serious" about how much I support the movement. As if only LGBTQA can support it! 

 

But I am a very strong supporter. I have many close friends that identify as LGBTQA (probably more than those that don't) and I've seen first-hand the horrible prejudices that get thrown around. I'm here to offer support and friendship to the community and whoever else needs it!