LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[RoryAverage]

Alright, I'm sick in bed and on vacation from work for a week. Also, my partner's off on a fishing trip (read drinking trip) for a few days. I needs the help. Suggestions for web comics or downloadable comics would be much appreciated. I usually read Marvel mostly X-Men and Thor, but I'm bored of the mainstream stuff. What are you people reading? Inclusion of les or bi characters is always a plus.

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Elfquest!  The entire series is online! Elfquest.com

 

[shaeon]

Heck yes Elfquest

[Candace Koller]

God, I hope Texas isn't number 50...

[Madam_Patella]

 

God, I hope Texas isn't number 50...

 

 

Ditto. In my case, Tennessee.

Warning: Long rant ahead about dealing with people against marriage equality

 

Most of the people I've met that are against same-sex marriage are around 70-80 and/or ultra-conservative christians and/or they've had the idea drilled into their heads since they were born by said conservative, 70-80 yr olds. And the most common explanations that I've heard are "Marriage is how babies are made" and "God said a man shouldn't lay with another man as he would a woman".  These are both outdated sentiments and hearing them makes me want to scream that: 

1) This is the 21st century, not ancient Mesopotamia and believe it or not, social values have actually changed a bit in the last few thousand years.

2)Intercourse is no longer necessary to procreate thanks to medical advancements. Yes, Intercourse. I know you're not comfortable thinking about *GASP* sex and would rather pretend that women magically become pregnant a few months after marriage, but you're an adult and should act like one.  

3) All this bullshit about children being supposed to be born to a married couple was originally to ensure that they would be cared for and so that the parents would have an heir to carry on the family name. Also at the time, it was thought that contracts and alliances were best made through wedlock.

And finally 4) I'm pretty sure that the verse you keep throwing around about 'man lying with man' was laid out in a point in history that the people who wrote it were gathered in relatively small groups that could easily be rendered extinct by a bad harvest, disease, or larger group that wanted their resources, and so they were more focused on raising the population than allowing people to act as individuals. The easiest way of forcing these fairly superstitious people to conform was to convince them that some all-powerful deity arbitrarily decided that it liked them better than the other people and would also violently destroy them if they didn't obey the religious leaders without question. The monotheistic beliefs that came from this were pretty weird to the rest of the humans(mostly pantheistic or polytheistic) and so it was pretty hard for them to make allies to ensure survival (the beliefs that any group other than their own were evil and that they shouldn't breed with them didn't help much either.)

Instead of saying this I usually just change the subject because generally when this comes up there are several of them together, they're relatives, and I already have to hear them complain about the president and whatever the newspapers said about conflicts in the middle east, so the last thing I want to do is add fuel, or in this case, napalm to the fire.

[Candace Koller]

And let's not forget the bible never restricts lesbian sex

I don't see people getting in a tizzy about not having railings on the roof, tassels on clothing, or planting more than one type of seed in their gardens. Anyone seen people checking tags at local churches for linen-wool combinations? All of those were laws in the day too. Not to mention this guy.

People really need to get off their high horses sometimes.

 

[RoryAverage]

The stock answer to nosy douches who want to tell people how to live based on the bible:
 
"Jesus was very clear. He came along and established a new covenant between humans and God, rescinding the Old Testament. Hebrews 8:13, you nosy butt-sniffer!" Then ask them where their blue tassels are. If they say "I don't know what that means" tell em to re-read Leviticus. If they want someone else to follow every Leviticus law, they need to do the same.
 
Sometimes, when I'm really in a mood I start asking them if they're better than Jesus. If they say no I again quote Hebrews 8:12-13 and ask them "If Jesus can forgive, why can't you? Also, if Jesus rescinded Leviticus's laws, who the effin-h are you to say different? Take that plank out of your own eye first."
 
Hebrews 8:13

FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

 
I got into this lame argument all the time at my old church. Now that I go to the Gnostic church it's all meditation and "knowing thyself" to know God. Much more interesting IMO.
 
**Sorry if that seems harsh, but I'm tired of the whole Garriage argument. Consenting adults should be able to contractually obligate themselves to one another if they want. FFS, no one says shit about 2LGBTQs forming a corporation, but just don't let em file personal taxes or make medical decisions together. The horror! Next we'll have cats and dogs living together!
 

 

PS. Candace, I like the way you think!

[shaeon]

"Traditional marriage" was mainly about treating women like property - someone who belonged to her father, who was transferring ownership to another man. Just watching Downton Abbey is a reminder of how very recently marriage was all about property in western culture. The conflict that drives most of the plot on that show wouldn't even be an issue if the estate could legally be handed down to one of the daughters. So this entire idea of what "traditional marriage" is or should be about is basically ignorant within itself. You'd be hard-pressed to find even a preacher's wife who would want to be married in the way that people actually married in Biblical times.

 

My reaction to the furor over traditional marriage is basically that religion has nothing to do with marriage in the United States, because anyone here can marry regardless of faith, in or out of a church. I can keep going on that - other than being about love, marriage in modern society is also mainly a civil ceremony, and is about simplifying things like who your inheritor is, who the parents of these kids are (when they are not both biological parents), etc. But here's the thing - I don't feel like I owe it to people to explain to them LOGICALLY why I deserve rights. I don't need to defend it until it makes sense to them. I deserve rights because my rights do not interfere with theirs. I deserve rights because no one else deserves to take them from me. I deserve rights because I just do. I don't owe anyone an explanation for that.

[shaeon]

And if they don't like it they can talk to these boots.

[Cupcake_Kim]

I'm in Canada and luckily able to choose who I marry, but gah, the whole marriage issue drives me nuts. As someone of First Nations heritage (ok, half First Nations), I can tell you that we had marriage long before Christianity was introduced, and yes sometimes it was between same-sex partners. Why should people get to tell me or anyone else that we can't continue with that? It is beside the point that I choose not to marry, and instead have a common-law partner who I call "husband" for sake of ease.

Anywho, I hope that everyone is granted this basic human-right sooner rather than later.

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[shaeon]

I'm in Canada and luckily able to choose who I marry, but gah, the whole marriage issue drives me nuts. As someone of First Nations heritage (ok, half First Nations), I can tell you that we had marriage long before Christianity was introduced, and yes sometimes it was between same-sex partners. Why should people get to tell me or anyone else that we can't continue with that? It is beside the point that I choose not to marry, and instead have a common-law partner who I call "husband" for sake of ease.

Anywho, I hope that everyone is granted this basic human-right sooner rather than later.

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I really appreciate your point of view here. I have been told more than once by heterosexual libertarians "why do you want to marry anyway? It's a flawed system blah blah blah..." 

What's worse than someone telling me I don't deserve rights, is someone telling me I shouldn't WANT those rights to begin with. It's not about wanting to marry. It's about having the freedom to choose what I do. Religious zealotry is bad enough. What will really make you insane is a secular rational thinker who is utterly convinced that he's open-minded - just look at all the gay friends he has! Because we are badges of his open-mindedness, that's why we exist! - but has rationalized our lack of rights.

 

[ColoQ]

I really appreciate your point of view here. I have been told more than once by heterosexual libertarians "why do you want to marry anyway? It's a flawed system blah blah blah..." 

What's worse than someone telling me I don't deserve rights, is someone telling me I shouldn't WANT those rights to begin with. It's not about wanting to marry. It's about having the freedom to choose what I do. Religious zealotry is bad enough. What will really make you insane is a secular rational thinker who is utterly convinced that he's open-minded - just look at all the gay friends he has! Because we are badges of his open-mindedness, that's why we exist! - but has rationalized our lack of rights.

 

Man.. screw him. He's an unhelpful jerk-face, like for legitsies!  (go ahead and tell him I said that.)

 

I am personally in the "Marriage is a flawed institution camp" as well.. and I'll give you  you what his argument should be.

Marriage is a  Flawed system, that legalizes and places a legal "right" on a social construct, which is fluid, outdated, and generally sexist.

However, given that it won't go away any time soon - not having access to the privileges of what is essentially a legal contract, makes the people without access a second class citizen.  This is wrong, and should be rectified: as legal protections, and advantages should be given to all.

[Cupcake_Kim]

DELETED [insert Strong Bad GIF here]

[Cupcake_Kim]

...and now I think I may have missed something. Can we, blame this on cold meds? I've been reading and napping, then napping and reading. Not very conducive to a cohesive conversation. Oops.

[SevenofSeven]

May I ask a question?

If one of the states of 'Merica allows legal marriage of consenting adults of the same bloodline, "adult incest" , why are people all in a tizz about gay marriage?

Not trying to be funny here but it does not make sense to me. I would advocate gay marriage over incest of adults and the resulting offspring any day.

[Madam_Patella]

May I ask a question?

If one of the states of 'Merica allows legal marriage of consenting adults of the same bloodline, "adult incest" , why are people all in a tizz about gay marriage?

Not trying to be funny here but it does not make sense to me. I would advocate gay marriage over incest of adults and the resulting offspring any day.

Interesting point. I dunno, maybe we're still semi-accustomed to the idea since the days of "Sure, marry your first cousin. That way we'll keep the money in the family." were only a couple centuries ago... =/

And also: "Cuz itz 'Murca! We kin do watevur the heck we wan cuz othurwais them othur cuntriez mait notis tha we stole most uh ther iderz. Nope we inveinted baseball. Dun lissen tuh them britesh doodz talkin bout crickit. En we speik 'Murkin not Inlishh!"

[shaeon]

Man.. screw him. He's an unhelpful jerk-face, like for legitsies!  (go ahead and tell him I said that.)

 

I am personally in the "Marriage is a flawed institution camp" as well.. and I'll give you  you what his argument should be.

Marriage is a  Flawed system, that legalizes and places a legal "right" on a social construct, which is fluid, outdated, and generally sexist.

However, given that it won't go away any time soon - not having access to the privileges of what is essentially a legal contract, makes the people without access a second class citizen.  This is wrong, and should be rectified: as legal protections, and advantages should be given to all.

The main guy that used to pester me about this is not my friend anymore, because he was a self-important jerk. 

And that's just as well, because sometime soon after that friendship ended, he got engaged. So it saved me all the drama that slapping him for being a hypocrite would have caused. 

[Jett]

Hello! Just found this thread, which I am glad to see. My spouse and I are both queer in different ways. I'm pansexual and a little genderfluid, and "he" is trans (MtF). We'll probably have some questions in a few months about trying to work out and lose weight while starting estrogen. We also have to figure out how to explain this to our very conservitive families, which will be painful. x_x

[starsapart]

Hopping in to say that we finally got to file our taxes as married for the first time ever!!!!!!  Last year, our state still didn't recognize our marriage, plus the US federal situation was....... murky, so we filed as single.... as always.  Finally this year, for the first time in ages, I DON'T OWE TAXES.  Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy filing together!

 

[Hit]

Hello and welcome JMitch! 

 

 

 

We'll probably have some questions in a few months about trying to work out and lose weight while starting estrogen.

 

got you covered - http://rebellion.nerdfitness.com/index.php?/topic/50484-transsexual-looking-to-get-into-shape/?p=1144362

 

 

 

Finally this year, for the first time in ages, I DON'T OWE TAXES.  Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy filing together!

 

congrats stars! thats awesome news

[shaeon]

May I ask a question?

If one of the states of 'Merica allows legal marriage of consenting adults of the same bloodline, "adult incest" , why are people all in a tizz about gay marriage?

Not trying to be funny here but it does not make sense to me. I would advocate gay marriage over incest of adults and the resulting offspring any day.

According to wikipedia, It's more unusual that some states in the US ban cousin marriage, compared with other countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CousinMarriageWorld.svg

 

In my own opinion about this: in a lot of western countries, marrying cousins was pretty normal fairly recently, historically speaking. It's not like there was a big push for cousin marriage rights, but rather the opposite - something that was considered normal is now considered unusual and/or unhealthy for your offspring. In a situation like that, banning it means that people have decided that it's actually enough of a problem that laws should be enforced about it. 

 

Meanwhile, "homosexual acts" were illegal in many places until fairly recently (and still are in many places). Allowing gay marriage is the result of a large number of changes against longstanding prejudice. 

Also, when it comes down to it, "why can't it be legal when this type of marriage that I find weird is legal?" isn't, in my opinion, going to work nor is it a great way to win the argument. There are those who argue against gay marriage with the same kind of logic: "if that becomes legal, then before you know it bestiality will be legal too, and you'll be able to marry your German Shepherd!" Just because each of these examples are about some kind of marriage does not mean that they are at all linked, or related, or should have any affect on one another. 

And again, that's why I stick with saying that we deserve rights because we just do. I'm not going to argue the Bible with Christians. I'm not going to try to be clever or funny. I'm not going to argue against someone else's life in order to make my point. I won't come at this sideways. Anyone who wants to prevent me from having rights has to deal with my assertion that they want to keep me a second class citizen, and I won't spare them from that accusation in any way. 

[Hit]

 

 

It's not like there was a big push for cousin marriage rights, but rather the opposite - something that was considered normal is now considered unusual and/or unhealthy for your offspring.

 

my sister is the most unattractive person in the world to me, and my cousins are mostly super bogans, so i've never really got incest. but if the only issue is offspring, then i dont really get why you'd need to legislate against it? i mean, there are plenty of other methods for having kids - surrogates, adoption, sperm donars etc.

 

anyway, i agree with you shae. there's no point in arguing the bible verses, or slinging verse for verse with religious people. you can't win that game, you have to appeal to their humanity.

[kaelvan]

God, I hope Texas isn't number 50...

Well there was an article while back that Texas was considering it, so no Texas won't be lucky 50. No, Tennessee (why am I again thinking of moving there?...oh yeah fell in love with the city of Chattanooga.) will more likely be 50th.

[shaeon]

my sister is the most unattractive person in the world to me, and my cousins are mostly super bogans, so i've never really got incest. but if the only issue is offspring, then i dont really get why you'd need to legislate against it? i mean, there are plenty of other methods for having kids - surrogates, adoption, sperm donars etc.

 

anyway, i agree with you shae. there's no point in arguing the bible verses, or slinging verse for verse with religious people. you can't win that game, you have to appeal to their humanity.

Or hold up a mirror to their inhumanity until they get uncomfortable. 

[kaelvan]

Well you do have a same chance of birth defect (if baby dad/mommy is cousins) as 40 year old woman trying for a baby.

 

Frankly, I don't care if cousins want to marry. I don't get it, but if it makes them happy, who cares.

 

Also, if you need something non-serious to read comic wise, I Was Kidnapped By Lesbian Pirates From Outer Space. You can find it online or just download it.

[Cupcake_Kim]

You had me at "Lesbian Pirates".

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