MEN ONLY THREAD part two

[Hit]

i dont know how many of you (if any) are down with this sort of stuff, but id be interested to hear your opinions on this article: 

 

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/12/04/The-Sexodus-Part-1-The-Men-Giving-Up-On-Women-And-Checking-Out-Of-Society/

 

I know what i think, and i know what my friends think, but i wanna hear your thoughts! and also i just like saying the word sexodus.

 

sexodus.

[Sloth the Enduring]

I couldn't bring myself to read the whole article. I recognize the problem. I don't place the blame on radical feminists or woman trained to be victims. Rather I think the problem is that we are now in a society that men don't grow up, they are perpetual adolescents, devoting their life to being entertained and being consumers.

The blame perhaps could be placed on how we are raising boys. Giving them infinite choices, constant entertainment, and few opportunities to be responsible or useful. How many boys even do chores anymore? I'd bet 90+% of my male students don't do any.

[cn3wton]

Is it bad that I saw the picture at the top of that article and went "Awesome that guys playing borderlands!"?

[Dradis]

i dont know how many of you (if any) are down with this sort of stuff, but id be interested to hear your opinions on this article: 

 

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/12/04/The-Sexodus-Part-1-The-Men-Giving-Up-On-Women-And-Checking-Out-Of-Society/

 

I know what i think, and i know what my friends think, but i wanna hear your thoughts! and also i just like saying the word sexodus.

 

sexodus.

 

Hmmm, yeah i can see this being a problem, but i don't believe its a big as the article makes out. And of course you can always argue that in quite a few portions of society we still haven't got to equality for women yet. 

The men withdrawing from society need to have a word with themselves and man-up. That's just my opinion.

 

Interaction with women has always been hard/daunting/etc, its nothing new created by feminists.

[Endor]

There's certainly some deliberately inflammatory generalisations in this article, the suggestion that women have given up on monogamy is a ridiculous generalisation but there are some interesting points in it too. 

 

I was lucky enough to grow up in an era when boys were allowed to be boys and men were allowed to be men.

 

These days it's all about "safety" and cotton wool and woe betide you if you say the slightest negative thing about a woman, Misogynist!  That word is as popular as beard's and tat's these days, use it to be cool and fit in like the other kids.

 

I've been raised to respect and value women, I live and work with some amazingly talented and interesting women. As a man though the more extreme feminist vitriol does get boring, but then again most people that get their self worth from banging their particular drum over and over to anyone that will listen tend to get boring fairly quickly.

 

I do think there's a sentiment of instant gratification and the world owes me a living from the younger generation. I think we worked harder to earn things 20 years ago but then maybe I was the same at that age and I'm just turning into a grumpy old man

[Dradis]

There's certainly some deliberately inflammatory generalisations in this article, the suggestion that women have given up on monogamy is a ridiculous generalisation but there are some interesting points in it too. 

 

I was lucky enough to grow up in an era when boys were allowed to be boys and men were allowed to be men.

 

These days it's all about "safety" and cotton wool and woe betide you if you say the slightest negative thing about a woman, Misogynist!  That word is as popular as beard's and tat's these days, use it to be cool and fit in like the other kids.

 

I've been raised to respect and value women, I live and work with some amazingly talented and interesting women. As a man though the more extreme feminist vitriol does get boring, but then again most people that get their self worth from banging their particular drum over and over to anyone that will listen tend to get boring fairly quickly.

 

I do think there's a sentiment of instant gratification and the world owes me a living from the younger generation. I think we worked harder to earn things 20 years ago but then maybe I was the same at that age and I'm just turning into a grumpy old man

 

I think that last statement is definitely true, and i'm saying that as someone who is pretty close to the age-range the article discusses (i'm 33, the article talks about 15-30). To a certain degree i'm guilty of it myself. The big problem i see in my profession now (since 2007/2008 anyway) is there is actually no real incentive to work hard. Over the last 6 or 7 years the reward you get for working hard is negligible compared to doing "just enough". Other than professional pride there is little incentive to bust a gut.

[insanity]

The men withdrawing from society need to have a word with themselves and man-up.

This is part of the problem, men simply have to "man-up" despite everything that goes against them. I didn't read the entire article, but what I did read gave me the gist of it.

 

If you look at society today, while it's hard for both sexes, men aren't allowed to speak up lest they get labeled misogynist. Women can make false rape claims with little to no punishment, even remaining anonymous many times, ruining a guys life (Cosby, Duke, Jameis Winston, and others, now I'm reading about UVa). Women win up to 68 - 88% of child custody depending on where you look, they start a large majority of divorce proceedings, chances are they'll end up with child support and alimony, so they don't lose there.

 

(Divorce) http://www.unc.edu/courses/2010fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pdf

 

Men who want to be a teacher or work in a daycare, are seen as creepy and/or pedophiles, even a guy sitting on his roof with a camera elicits worry (I was the guy, taking pictures of a sunset)

 

(Men not allowed to sit next to kids on airline) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-414550/Revealed-How-BA-bans-men-sitting-children-dont-know.html

 

(Here's a good blog for examples of men automatically assumed to be predators) http://www.freerangekids.com/category/eek-a-male-and-stranger-danger/

 

You can also bring in things like Title IX, it's been abused to the point of shutting down mens sports, and Vawa, which brought in things like mandatory arrest to a domestic violence issue which most often goes against the man, even when nothing should be done (Pushing or grabbing), or the woman should be arrested (Men and women are about even when it comes to initiating violence in a relationship).

 

(Mandatory arrest) http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/articles/1679122-Mandatory-arrest-A-flawed-policy-based-on-a-false-premise/

 

(Men and women about even, and it also notes the lack of help for men who are victims of domestic violence) http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

 

(Just one example of Title IX shutting down mens sports) http://www.towson.edu/president/athleticssolutioncommittee/athleticstaskforce/index.asp

 

I could go on (crime and punishment, they way men are portrayed in media. etc), as this just scratches the surface, then to turn around and have people tell men to "man-up" and people wonder why men are just going out on their own.

[Thrillho]

Reminds me of the Denis Leary bit about Ireland, and how men have to repress / suppress their feelings. "Those aren't terrorist bombs, those are regular guys just fucking EXPLODING one day." 

[Robpocalypse]

i dont know how many of you (if any) are down with this sort of stuff, but id be interested to hear your opinions on this article:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/12/04/The-Sexodus-Part-1-The-Men-Giving-Up-On-Women-And-Checking-Out-Of-Society/

I know what i think, and i know what my friends think, but i wanna hear your thoughts! and also i just like saying the word sexodus.

sexodus.

There is a lot covered in that article and the discussion could cover a zillion tangents. There could be pages long discussions on any of the reasons alone, let alone how they converge. What I will say, from a purely selfish, biological male view is I could care less and the reasons themselves don't matter.

To simply say: Woah is me, feminism is keeping me from getting a date, is a poor excuse. A male has 2 options: figure out how to play the game, or identify a potential mate that is going to have similar values to the ones he holds (please note I am not advocating that a wife beater should locate a victim, more that both parties should be on the same wavelength has far as social values, timing of children, political view points, career ideas etc.)

I view it simply as a form of evolution where you adapt and reproduce or you don't. 10,000 years ago you had to provide safety, security and a food source to woo a wife, today's society presents a different set of challenges but the end result is similar: figure out what a woman needs and provide it to win.

The rules of the mating dance have changed and men who adapt will thrive, those that don't won't. Like everything the situation will self correct if it becomes too much of a problem, if women set up challenge gauntlets too daunting and seriously limit the potential pool of mates it will invariably weaken. This happens to both sexes who have strict ideals about their perfect match that slowly erode as they reach their mid 30's single life.

That's not to say people can't be perfectly happy on their own, just from a pure relationship and reproducing standpoint the young men that the article is addressing is those that understand the dating game has changed and chosen to take their balls (pun intended) and go home. You have to work to pass on your genes, you used to need to farm, fight, fish or hunt, now you need to navigate women's needs, or find a like minded companion. You either do and win, or fail and open up the pool for your competitors.

[Artinum]

I couldn't bring myself to read the whole article. I recognize the problem. I don't place the blame on radical feminists or woman trained to be victims. Rather I think the problem is that we are now in a society that men don't grow up, they are perpetual adolescents, devoting their life to being entertained and being consumers.

 

That's only partly right. It's not just the men that need to grow up. A lot of women too are expecting everything to be handed to them on a plate. The main difference between dogs and wolves is that we keep dogs in a puppy mindset throughout their lives - because that makes them easy to control. Keeping the majority of the population in an adolescent mindset - same thing. Much better to keep you distracted with shiny things than have you realise that the people in charge are corrupt. You might decide to do something about it.

 

I do sometimes wonder if feminism is the result of a deliberate effort to turn men and women against each other.

[Robpocalypse]

Interaction with women has always been hard/daunting/etc, its nothing new created by feminists.

I think this is a truth that gets lost in the conversation. No one is born knowing how to talk to women, you learn by practice. The article seems to imply that young men are afraid to practice, everyone was afraid when they first started out but the difference is that there is a generation of young men that are giving up.

Why are they giving up? I don't think it's feminism, I believe it's more society entitlement issues. I see a marked trend in business where younger workers have an entitlement issue that I believe comes about from child rearing trends over the past 2 decades and helicopter parents.

I work with some smart younger kids that simply can't take critique or rejection. Not even that they struggle to process it, they simply break down. Gonna be a tough career if your manager shoots down your idea and your first response is a sniffly: "That's not fair.".

I would imagine much of that same mindset nukes their romance life.

[insanity]

I do sometimes wonder if feminism is the result of a deliberate effort to turn men and women against each other.

Some stuff I've read brought  up the idea that feminism was an effort to get women into the workforce, thereby doubling the numbers of workers available, and supply and demand would dictate that salaries would go down as a result.

[Hit]

 

 

Some stuff I've read brought  up the idea that feminism was an effort to get women into the workforce, thereby doubling the numbers of workers available, and supply and demand would dictate that salaries would go down as a result.

 

lol what? that's pretty tinfoil hat level. Especially considering "women entered the workforce" in the greatest numbers during the first and second world wars in order to make up for the lack of men to run industry in the home countries. 

 

If you look at the history of womens rights movements there's a significant jump from pre 1900's to post. pre there was a big push on womens suffrage, womens property rights and womens education - those broad based and political concepts.

 

during the first half of the 1900s womens rights railed against more of the social plight of women (the feminine ideal) and the idea of gender roles. This jumped right up due to necessity to help the war efforts, then 1950s feminism gripped on tight to the gains made in the previous 2 decades and fought against the new "homemaker" ideal. 

 

the focus since has been getting narrower and narrower, as the larger "issues" get sorted we move on to the smaller ones. 

 

 

 

If you look at society today, while it's hard for both sexes, men aren't allowed to speak up lest they get labeled misogynist.

 

i dont think id agree with this at all, but i guess it comes down to what they'd be "speaking up" about? you've gone a bit scatter-gun in your post, with a whole range of issues that becomes hard to untangle to make a coherent argument beyond "men have problems too". 

 

It's really easy to turn these discussions into a zero-sum argument, and go back and forth on who has it harder and whos being discriminated against. Where there are cultural or legal frameworks in place to discriminate one gender over the other, these need to be dismantled. Mandatory arrests of men in cases of domestic abuse are a serious problem, as are rape laws that define rape as penetration only.

 

But to blame women for these laws, or feminism for that matter, is rather short sighted. If you speak about rates of violent crime, discriminatory rape laws, incarceration rates, or boys schooling, then being called a misogynist is very unlikely. Conversely if you say "well the worlds gone to shit and now i cant even get a girl to fuck" you probably will be called out for your bullshit.

[crash3400]

i dont know how many of you (if any) are down with this sort of stuff, but id be interested to hear your opinions on this article: 

 

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/12/04/The-Sexodus-Part-1-The-Men-Giving-Up-On-Women-And-Checking-Out-Of-Society/

 

I know what i think, and i know what my friends think, but i wanna hear your thoughts! and also i just like saying the word sexodus.

 

sexodus.

 

sexodus.  yes, i like it.  i think there's a lot of truth in there, but it's also blown a bit out of proportion.  unfortunately the majority of the media thrives on inflammatory (like Endor mentioned) or fear infused articles.  

 

as a college educated, divorced, adhd dude... i can say that yeah things have been hard, i took myself off medicine in high school and fight distractions constantly, i got raked over the coals in a divorce and thank God didn't have any kids to be taken away.

 

but you know what? sometimes shit is hard.  it may not seem related, but looking out for each other is huge - and i didn't get a feel that there was a whole lot of that going on for the guys in that article.  feminism arsonists (joke) - but people who rage about feminism are on the defensive because yeah, that's a real issue.  and the immasculating of dudes is a perceived issue, but just getting each others backs and not being shitty to each other would go a long way to resolve both sides.

 

we've all got issues, we all need a little help sometimes.

 

sexodus.

[Dradis]

What it boils down to is...

 

Now - there are some difficulties for men, the severity of which is questionable, and according to the article men are running and hiding (also questionable, yes there will be some of course)

 

Past - there were difficulties for women, lots of them, quite severe. They "manned-up" and (mostly, nowadays) got themselves on equal footing.

 

So i still stand by my statement that these hiding men need to man-up in the face of adversity, like women are and have done.

 

 

Also what crash said - sometimes shit is hard

[cn3wton]

I'd have to re read the article but I believe they say "radical feminists". Not just feminists.

I don't know what they consider to be radical feminists but to me it's those women who believe all men are shit and that kind of stuff.

And honestly radical feminists are a problem for men and women alike. They give feminism a bad name.

[insanity]

lol what? that's pretty tinfoil hat level. Especially considering "women entered the workforce" in the greatest numbers during the first and second world wars in order to make up for the lack of men to run industry in the home countries. 

 

If you look at the history of womens rights movements there's a significant jump from pre 1900's to post. pre there was a big push on womens suffrage, womens property rights and womens education - those broad based and political concepts.

 

during the first half of the 1900s womens rights railed against more of the social plight of women (the feminine ideal) and the idea of gender roles. This jumped right up due to necessity to help the war efforts, then 1950s feminism gripped on tight to the gains made in the previous 2 decades and fought against the new "homemaker" ideal. 

 

the focus since has been getting narrower and narrower, as the larger "issues" get sorted we move on to the smaller ones. 

 

Tinfoil hat level... maybe, but worse has happened. And I'm not sure how mentioning 2 events that led to the mass removal of men from the workforce defends against the idea, women replaced men when they went to war... they weren't competing with them like the idea would need. Like I said, just something I read, I don't have enough interest in it at the moment to look into it more.

 

As a note, the number of women being stay at home mothers continues to rise, despite this last "depression/recession" hitting men's jobs a lot harder.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21600998-after-falling-years-proportion-mums-who-stay-home-rising-return

 

i dont think id agree with this at all, but i guess it comes down to what they'd be "speaking up" about? you've gone a bit scatter-gun in your post, with a whole range of issues that becomes hard to untangle to make a coherent argument beyond "men have problems too". 

 

Scatter-gun, yes... I've written a couple papers on the relationships between men and women, not published mind you. But covering 5 "subjects' led to a 4 page paper, and I hadn't even scratched the surface of THOSE subjects, much less all the other ones I could write about. I was just wanting to post a few examples for reference.

 

It's really easy to turn these discussions into a zero-sum argument, and go back and forth on who has it harder and whos being discriminated against. Where there are cultural or legal frameworks in place to discriminate one gender over the other, these need to be dismantled (There already is a framework to dismantle discrimination, The 14th Amendment, it just simply needs to be enforced, instead of bringing about any one of numerous laws). Mandatory arrests of men in cases of domestic abuse are a serious problem (Glad we can agree), as are rape laws that define rape as penetration only (And not touching this one).

 

But to blame women for these laws, or feminism for that matter, is rather short sighted. If you speak about rates of violent crime, discriminatory rape laws, incarceration rates, or boys schooling, then being called a misogynist is very unlikely (It's not as unlikely as you might like to think, much like the word racist these days, it's almost one of the first reactions thrown out by many, not all women who enter a discussion on mens issues). Conversely if you say "well the worlds gone to shit and now i cant even get a girl to fuck" you probably will be called out for your bullshit. (Point out issues with how women act, and it gets turned into "She doesn't owe you sex so that's bullshit" even if it has nothing to do with sex, that's been done on this very forum)

 

 

[insanity]

I'd have to re read the article but I believe they say "radical feminists". Not just feminists.

I don't know what they consider to be radical feminists but to me it's those women who believe all men are shit and that kind of stuff.

And honestly radical feminists are a problem for men and women alike. They give feminism a bad name.

Unfortunately they're the vocal minority...

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

So much for men only thread.

[insanity]

So much for men only thread.

I'll stop my part of the conversation....

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I'll stop my part of the conversation....

 

Oh I don't care, I was just noting what it was becoming. I'm only here to make sure the thread doesn't get offensive, I rarely participate myself.

[insanity]

Oh I don't care, I was just noting what it was becoming. I'm only here to make sure the thread doesn't get offensive, I rarely participate myself.

Well, it's probably safer that I stop now, I've had my experience in this forum, and it's probably safer to just walk away now.

[Suited hippy]

Oh come now! This has been the most interesting discussion this thread has had in a while.

 

Too often people with too much passion on either side of the sexism argument end of dividing the causes further apart for the moderates. I would never call myself a feminist, not because I don't believe in equality, but feel that dedication to an ISM is a dangerous path. 

[pwallace]

Made some good arguments Insanity.

Also I was thinkin the same thing Gainsdalf. "men only" huh.

[insanity]

Oh come now! This has been the most interesting discussion this thread has had in a while.

 

Too often people with too much passion on either side of the sexism argument end of dividing the causes further apart for the moderates. I would never call myself a feminist, not because I don't believe in equality, but feel that dedication to an ISM is a dangerous path. 

The problem is I've already been in a similar discussion on this forum. I have no issue talking about it, or even debating it... hell, I'll debate till I'm blue in the face, but I've seen here that people like to read too much into things, and take offense to it. There's a deleted thread, at least I think it was deleted, that was about interactions between men and women that I participated in, and this one can quickly head down that path... and I'd like to keep this one here.