What is Nerd Fitness?

[morethanjustamom]

this is not to pick on you oystergirl but i highlight this just because it was the first example i found...

when i try to respond to someone, i usually try to say, this has worked for me, and may or may not work for you for these reasons. the statement above reads to me like a medical conclusion. i wonder whether in an online forum, people with no medical training should be giving medical advice... am i crazy in thinking this?

Not to start a fight but I would assume that whomever is asking advice on such things would take everything with a grain of salt if the advice is being given by a person without medical training...I know I don't believe that anything anyone says on these boards is gospel, but simply information to take and further research/study/experiment with on my own.

But then again, I don't believe everything my doctor says either.

[aj_rock]

ETF does make some good points. I see plenty of posts in primal/paleo from people that aren't very well informed as to what the plethora of possible choices are. Sometimes, a non-paleo point of view is probably warranted, despite the presence of a question in the paleo section.

In the end, this is a problem for Spezzy and Steve to worry about, not us common forum-ers. As we've discovered, it simply fosters bad blood and emotions between peers.

Honestly, I think that, potentially, we might do better for the newer ones amongst us if they weren't even introduced to paleo vs non-paleo until they've had a fair glance at everything that is offered... As such, all newb questions should be directed to the general boards, so that we don't have members of one guild vs the other feeling like they need to venture into the other's board in order to respond to a question that, technically, should be open ended.

But like I said, impartialness of the board isn't our problem. Hope you're still reading this thread Kamb!

[ETFnerd]

afaik you need a license to legally make medical conclusions and dispense medical advice... that's a separate matter from whether you believe the advice or not...

[WizardTrip]

my question, which remains unresolved, i think, is whether we can openly talk about what we think and believe in NF...

although not openly discussed, i think that the answer is clearly in display on a thread started today by a member about some advice she got from the doctor about cholesterol. she is trying paleo, and looking for information about how to handle what was said to her by her doctor.

it saddens me that she will only hear the paleo side of the story, because i guess no one wants any more discussion of the merits and demerits of differing sides of the debate about cholesterol. in effect, the paleo camp appears to have achieved what it wanted... effectively a place where they can feed people just their ideas about healthy eating. i feel frozen out of that discussion and others that are important to me...

To address this part of your question, all I can say is what I have seen and felt ever since joining back in Nov. I love NF, and before NF, never really heard of Paleo/Primal diets. I looked into them, decided it was not for me. But with that said, I have felt like I can't (maybe shouldn't?) participate in the discussions on those forums with suggestions or advice unless it adheres to those lifestyles. What I saw you suggest was just fine IMO, but yes, I do feel that I am limited as to what I can offer for those asking advice.

Honestly, in just hitting up threads from the "New Posts" link, I've jumped into some of the women's discussions. Even though there are some things I might be able to mention (stretch marks aren't only on women), I do feel it might not be my place to leave comments. Hell if I know, but yes....there are some items I feel locked out of offering my ideas or suggestions, but I would hope it would all be good as long as what I suggest is following what the OP is asking for.

[Loren Wade]

It's a two way street though as well. It saddens me as well that I may not be able to provide a paleo-based answer in the non-paleo section.

What ETF is asking is a great question. Should either side interfere with the other forum?

I freely admit I could have handled my contribution to the original conversation a bit better, especially since the question being asked hasn't been addressed.

EDIT:

To address this part of your question, all I can say is what I have seen and felt ever since joining back in Nov. I love NF, and before NF, never really heard of Paleo/Primal diets. I looked into them, decided it was not for me. But with that said, I have felt like I can't (maybe shouldn't?) participate in the discussions on those forums with suggestions or advice unless it adheres to those lifestyles. What I saw you suggest was just fine IMO, but yes, I do feel that I am limited as to what I can offer for those asking advice.

Honestly, in just hitting up threads from the "New Posts" link, I've jumped into some of the women's discussions. Even though there are some things I might be able to mention (stretch marks aren't only on women), I do feel it might not be my place to leave comments. Hell if I know, but yes....there are some items I feel locked out of offering my ideas or suggestions, but I would hope it would all be good as long as what I suggest is following what the OP is asking for.

Which is part of the problem, because paleo/primal disagrees with some things that non-paleo/primal people believe. It does create somewhat if a dichotomy in the community.

[ETFnerd]

i don't have any issue with both sides being presented... that's how it should be so that the reader can make her or his mind up based on more information. as a practical matter though, the discussions lately go south really quickly, and i admit to participating in that by getting annoyed at some of the arguments. In the end I think we're all putting steve and staci in a difficult situation because it is really us that can't seem to discuss things calmly...

going fwd i'll try to be more aware of this and just present my views.. and allow others to present theirs...

[Morrigainz]

Personally, I always enjoy input from whatever direction it comes. I don't necessarily subscribe to the advice I'm given, a la getting it tattooed on my body or something, but I've learned things and a lot of times it helps point me in the right direction for continued research.

I think in general paleo/non paleo debates haven't been TOO bad...there have been a couple but nothing big. I think there is nothing wrong with offering paleo advice in a non paleo forum, or vice versa, or meatatarians posting in the veggie forum...understanding that those things are posted there for a reason...so, not going to a paleo thread and saying "you should eat ALL the grains!"

It's about having respect for other people's choices, even when you think they are wrong, and appreciating their feedback/input (because you can be wrong and still smart...right? Um....right?!?!?! If not I'm in trouble....) Again in general, I haven't noticed in my short time here that it has been a huge issue. I have seen several "agree to disagree" posts and it's often left at that, in a very respectful way.

Anyway. Just my two cents.

[Loren Wade]

i don't have any issue with both sides being presented... that's how it should be so that the reader can make her or his mind up based on more information. as a practical matter though, the discussions lately go south really quickly, and i admit to participating in that by getting annoyed at some of the arguments. In the end I think we're all putting steve and staci in a difficult situation because it is really us that can't seem to discuss things calmly...

I guess that's the question. Should both sides be presented?

For example, a new guy comes to the forum. He's trying paleo for the first time. He posts a question in the paleo section, but the first response he receives is someone telling him he shouldn't be paleo, red meat is bad, saturated fat is bad, and that he should consume bread.

I know this is a complete exaggeration. No one actually did this. My point is though, it's not fair for that person asking the question to receive a bunch of answers that isn't really what he's looking to hear, ya know?

In the end, I do agree. We're putting Steve and Staci in a tough situation and I also admit to being part of that problem.

EDIT:

Personally, I always enjoy input from whatever direction it comes. I don't necessarily subscribe to the advice I'm given, a la getting it tattooed on my body or something, but I've learned things and a lot of times it helps point me in the right direction for continued research.

I think in general paleo/non paleo debates haven't been TOO bad...there have been a couple but nothing big. I think there is nothing wrong with offering paleo advice in a non paleo forum, or vice versa, or meatatarians posting in the veggie forum...understanding that those things are posted there for a reason...so, not going to a paleo thread and saying "you should eat ALL the grains!"

It's about having respect for other people's choices, even when you think they are wrong, and appreciating their feedback/input (because you can be wrong and still smart...right? Um....right?!?!?! If not I'm in trouble....) Again in general, I haven't noticed in my short time here that it has been a huge issue. I have seen several "agree to disagree" posts and it's often left at that, in a very respectful way.

Anyway. Just my two cents.

Totally agree.

[MMyers]

The easiest way I can think of to make everybody happy is just condensing everything back into a single Nutrition forum. And then try to convey that posts should be labelled like: "Paleo: Cholesterol Results" or "Non-Paleo: Healthy Snacks". Originally, the sub-forums (from my understanding) were there to narrow down where you wanted advice. If it's a free-for-all again, it's kind of redundant to split everything up.

[morethanjustamom]

Personally, I always enjoy input from whatever direction it comes. I don't necessarily subscribe to the advice I'm given, a la getting it tattooed on my body or something, but I've learned things and a lot of times it helps point me in the right direction for continued research.

I think in general paleo/non paleo debates haven't been TOO bad...there have been a couple but nothing big. I think there is nothing wrong with offering paleo advice in a non paleo forum, or vice versa, or meatatarians posting in the veggie forum...understanding that those things are posted there for a reason...so, not going to a paleo thread and saying "you should eat ALL the grains!"

It's about having respect for other people's choices, even when you think they are wrong, and appreciating their feedback/input (because you can be wrong and still smart...right? Um....right?!?!?! If not I'm in trouble....) Again in general, I haven't noticed in my short time here that it has been a huge issue. I have seen several "agree to disagree" posts and it's often left at that, in a very respectful way.

Anyway. Just my two cents.

^ This!

One of the users on this forum is someone who's not in any way a Paleo believer, and yet he and I are perfectly capable of having a discussion about weight loss methods without him telling me even once that I should eat bread, and without me telling him grains are evil.

It can be done.

[Loren Wade]

What I'd we created a paleo-non paleo debate thread and stickied it somewhere.

It could have links that provides both sides of the story. Then it's there, it's presented. We refer people to the sticky for questions unless it doesn't answer it?

[Book]

Am I missing something? Didn't this get settled?

Hey guys -

ETF's advice wasn't bad advice, nor was it non paleo.

Let's not try to kick people out of certain areas of the forum when they're trying to be helpful.

This would seem to say to me, it's okay to post non-paleo in paleo.

[chairohkey]

My point is though, it's not fair for that person asking the question to receive a bunch of answers that isn't really what he's looking to hear, ya know?

Some of the best answers I've received have been ones I wasn't looking for. For example when I first started lifting weights again last year I went to a certain forum that specialized in body building. I think I posted a question about creating a good lifting routine. I wanted to know the best way to blast my bi’s, chest, and get teh abz. I was recommended numerous upper/lower body split routines straight out of Flex magazine before someone told me to forget all of that bullshit. They told me if I wanted to get strong I needed to squat, deadlift, and bench heavy. It got me thinking, I did my own research, and here I am today stronger, fatter, and happier.

[Loren Wade]

Am I missing something? Didn't this get settled?

This would seem to say to me, it's okay to post non-paleo in paleo.

I don't think that settled it. Staci was saying that what ETF specifically said wasn't inherently non-paleo. I overreacted.

[Morrigainz]

Loren, I think that's a good idea.

[ETFnerd]

Am I missing something? Didn't this get settled?

This would seem to say to me, it's okay to post non-paleo in paleo.

well, there's the law, however you want to interpret it, but also trying to get along with others in a community...

[Loren Wade]

Some of the best answers I've received have been ones I wasn't looking for. For example when I first started lifting weights again last year I went to a certain forum that specialized in body building. I think I posted a question about creating a good lifting routine. I wanted to know the best way to blast my bi’s, chest, and get teh abz. I was recommended numerous upper/lower body split routines straight out of Flex magazine before someone told me to forget all of that bullshit. They told me if I wanted to get strong I needed to squat, deadlift, and bench heavy. It got me thinking, I did my own research, and here I am today stronger, fatter, and happier.

I totally agree, which is how I found paleo. I'm with ETF on this.. As long as both sides are presented respectfully, then it's win-win. Otherwise, someone telling a paleo newbie to eat lots of bread is counterproductive.

[Book]

I don't think that settled it. Staci was saying that what ETF specifically said wasn't inherently non-paleo. I overreacted.

You're ignoring the second sentence, Loren. He was trying to be helpful.

[Loren Wade]

You're ignoring the second sentence, Loren. He was trying to be helpful.

I know. I respectfully disagreed, and I think we're doing a fine job of talking it out!

[WizardTrip]

Honestly.....simply addressing the poster's questions should be the main thing that will sway the topic. If someone is asking for the pros and cons of paleo, then both sides need to be represented. If s/he has already made the decision and is asking about advice on how to proceed or something specific to paleo, then answers need to address it as the OP intended, as paleo. Of course, those answers can come from paleo and non-paleo people, as long as it is answered in the manner in which the OP is expecting. This should be the same for all topics. As an example, earlier today Maggie May asked about post workout drinks, and specified "I don't use dairy (besides whey) so that's out", so I'm not gonna hop in and say "Drink Milk!"

[WizardTrip]

Woh! After hitting submit on that last one, there were ~5+ more replies.....this thread is getting ahead of me. HA :-)

[katscratch]

my question, which remains unresolved, i think, is whether we can openly talk about what we think and believe in NF...

although not openly discussed, i think that the answer is clearly in display on a thread started today by a member about some advice she got from the doctor about cholesterol. she is trying paleo, and looking for information about how to handle what was said to her by her doctor.

it saddens me that she will only hear the paleo side of the story, because i guess no one wants any more discussion of the merits and demerits of differing sides of the debate about cholesterol. in effect, the paleo camp appears to have achieved what it wanted... effectively a place where they can feed people just their ideas about healthy eating. i feel frozen out of that discussion and others that are important to me...

it does strike me that many don't to openly say what they feel... i don't know if it's decorum or tiredness from the recent incessant arguing, but i wonder if it's the group or just a vocal minority that wants the discussion, at least in certain sections of the forum, to be limited to one viewpoint.

It's a two way street though as well. It saddens me as well that I may not be able to provide a paleo-based answer in the non-paleo section.

What ETF is asking is a great question. Should either side interfere with the other forum?

i don't have any issue with both sides being presented... that's how it should be so that the reader can make her or his mind up based on more information. as a practical matter though, the discussions lately go south really quickly, and i admit to participating in that by getting annoyed at some of the arguments. In the end I think we're all putting steve and staci in a difficult situation because it is really us that can't seem to discuss things calmly...

This is *my* opinion, but I always welcome a viewpoint different from my own, as long as it comes without judgement -- for example, someone telling me "I'm not paleo, but I've read/experienced xyz" or "I know I don't have a vagina but my girlfriend has found" is awesome in my book. I have learned so much more in my life from people that aren't like me but support me anyway, than I have my peers/family etc that have the exact same outlook on various issues.

When my son was an infant, I was a member of a couple of parenting-related forums. One was full of forward-thinking, open-minded people and I met some amazing friends, but the whole site imploded because of issues like this-- first there was a moms of color forum so that those mamas had a place to discuss their issues without having to constantly explain racism etc, open to be read by all members but understood you didn't participate if you didn't identify non-white -- a little drama ensued when people posted questions in other areas about things they had read in that forum -- more and more divisions occurred breastfeeding vs formula, natural vs medicated birth, homeschooling vs public etc etc etc -- instead of the new forums being created to divert heavy posting traffic into manageable spaces, they were created in response to heated discussions in the main forums. The whole site went dark shortly after, because nearly every thread had someone pop in to police responses and point out off topic replies.

The same thing happened on the other forum I was a member of, but it had the initial problem of growing very rapidly so has managed to retain membership-- it however does not feel like a community, but a searchable, postable database of information. Valuable, but not at all what I like about NF.

Obviously I am new here, but I don't think we're so gigantic that discussion among any of us needs to be relegated to rules and policies. If I say something that offends someone, I wanna be called out on it. If my co-rebel offers me tips from their very different perspective, sweet. If either of those things lead to passionate discussion, I think that's ultimately a *good* thing as long as there aren't personal insults involved.

As a side note: I think ETFs point about how we phrase advice in regards to health/medicine is important-- I work in healthcare so learned long ago to phrase things carefully, but more than that, each of us here DOES have slightly different experiences and what is ideal for us may not *always* be ideal for everyone. Not that anyone posting here is likely to sue any of us over a suggestion

[Loren Wade]

Honestly.....simply addressing the poster's questions should be the main thing that will sway the topic. If someone is asking for the pros and cons of paleo, then both sides need to be represented. If s/he has already made the decision and is asking about advice on how to proceed or something specific to paleo, then answers need to address it as the OP intended, as paleo. Of course, those answers can come from paleo and non-paleo people, as long as it is answered in the manner in which the OP is expecting. This should be the same for all topics. As an example, earlier today Maggie May asked about post workout drinks, and specified "I don't use dairy (besides whey) so that's out", so I'm not gonna hop in and say "Drink Milk!"

I'm inclined to agree, so why a paleo and non paleo section then?

EDIT: Agreed with above post.

But this defeats the purpose of a paleo and non-paleo forum. Which I'm totally fine with. I think we'd all be better off this way.

[ETFnerd]

one of the things that i find difficult is advice along the lines of: "eat all the bacon you want and don't worry about it". it feels like there is an unhealthy amount of bacon we can eat... those are times when i feel like i want to jump into a discussion...

"eat a reasonable amount of bacon and exercise regularly" sounds cool to me... and i wouldn't feel the urge to comment...

[Guest Snake McClain]

first we were like

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then we were like

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