What women love about men.

[Waldo]

THIS. I feel like dudes who are loud and boisterous as their M.O. are subconsciously aware that that may be their only mechanism by which to attract the ladyfolk. Does way more for me when it's obvious that a man is secure enough in his own skin that he lets his charm and humor speak for itself (rather than his volume).

 

Naw. I'm not old (I don't think...) but that's way hotter to me than Mr. Showoff.

But there is more to it than that.

SNL actually made fun of this fact the last time Tom Brady was on; shy quiet skinny little guy tries to be nice or even looks her way, she calls sexual harrasment, Tom Brady OTOH gets the totally opposite reaction despite being way over the top.

There is a feedback loop that creates both shyness and confidence. Skinny little guys who don't have over the top personalities seem to invariably become shy, as do many fat guys. The feedback they receive from their words and actions drives them that way.

One thing I've learned, over long term with my transformation, is that eventually the feedback loop that creates shyness can be and is reversed and the very same personality can gain a ton of confidence. People listen to me and take me serious in a way they never have before (both male/female), they also assume that I'm a confident leader just by looking at me, which feeds into making me a confident leader. Even things totally unrelated to fitness; the big fit guy gets A LOT of really positive snap impressions made about them which makes navigating your way so much easier.

Though married so it is merely a musing, I oft wonder how different attempting to pick up women in bars would be nowadays. Last time I tried (a very long time ago), I was a frail little shy guy that never got noticed, that also had very little experience with women and put them on a pedestal in a bad way (just scares you more). Nowadays I'm always noticed, and I notice that I'm noticed quite a bit (ladies regularly unabashedly checking me out is a fairly new thing tho), and I'm pretty sure I could just talk to anyone without issue. Don't really need to be cocky or arrogant about anything either, that just is a coping mechanism to make up for perceived snap judgement/first impression weakness. I at least believe (again, not in a cocky or arrogant way) that I'm at least physically "good enough" that pretty much any woman, based on visual impressions alone, would sleep with me, so the starting point would always be that; saying dumb things could could screw that up, but there is no need to worry about saying the right things as there is no need to try to make up for a perceived lack of attractiveness.

John Romaniello did a really good video about this that was posted about a year ago in one of the forums, weight loss I believe. Plus dealing with the issue in a positive way (all of a sudden believing every female you meet would sleep with you is great if you are single (especially when they are trying to), but it has to be managed if you are not; finding self confidence doesn't mean exploiting it).

[Missmouse]

Yeah, I disagree with your interpretation of the article Miss Mouse. It seems to me that he's not complaining so much about not getting the girl in the first place, but about the fact that women all "claim" they want what he believes he's offering, but in actual fact, they don't want that at all, and laugh or scorn those guys who are "nice".

I have loads of male friends. But when I hang out with them, it's as mates. There's non of this pseudo-boyfriend lark going on, because that would be using a guy for my own emotional gratification. That's the kind of behaviour the guy in the article is referring to, and why he feels used.

At least, that's how I read it.

 

But that's the real point - if you are only spending time with a women, and being her friend, in the hopes that you will one day get into her pants... are you really a friend?

 

That's why there's a big difference between nice people and "Nice Guys".  If a man feels used by a woman who leans on him for emotional support, and doesn't give him sex, he has the perfect solution at this fingertips: Stop hanging out with her.  Continuing to do so, and then complaining that he isn't getting a payout, is really, really disingenuous.

And as for women complaining that there are no nice guys, that's just generalized mumbo jumbo.  People are allowed to be attracted - and NOT attracted - to anyone they want. And when attraction goes unrequited, the "they just don't want nice guys' meme is a way to place the blame on the object of affection, rather than on the person with the unrequited feelings.

 

Yes, if a woman leads a guy on by hinting that there is a romantic relationship, when there really isnt one, she's obviously not a very good person.  But in most cases that I've seen, she has been clear that she offers friendship only.  But the guy keeps hanging around hoping for more.  And when he doesn't get it, SHE is labled a heartless biatch.

 

The CL article was a pretty good description of that dynamic.

[insanity]

But that's the real point - if you are only spending time with a women, and being her friend, in the hopes that you will one day get into her pants... are you really a friend?

 

And if you're spending time with her because you want an actual relationship?

 

That's why there's a big difference between nice people and "Nice Guys".  If a man feels used by a woman who leans on him for emotional support, and doesn't give him sex, he has the perfect solution at this fingertips: Stop hanging out with her.  Continuing to do so, and then complaining that he isn't getting a payout, is really, really disingenuous.

 

And now when he stops hanging out with her, she'll just tell her friends that he was just trying to get in her pants... so he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

 

And as for women complaining that there are no nice guys, that's just generalized mumbo jumbo.  People are allowed to be attracted - and NOT attracted - to anyone they want. And when attraction goes unrequited, the "they just don't want nice guys' meme is a way to place the blame on the object of affection, rather than on the person with the unrequited feelings.

 

It may be generalized, but... much like stereotypes, they exist for a reason....

 

Yes, if a woman leads a guy on by hinting that there is a romantic relationship, when there really isnt one, she's obviously not a very good person.  But in most cases that I've seen, she has been clear that she offers friendship only.  But the guy keeps hanging around hoping for more.  And when he doesn't get it, SHE is labled a heartless biatch.

 

The friendship only is fine, I've got one of those now... and that's not the complaint. It's the "friendship only, but then I'm going to complain that the only guys that exist are assholes" Which if it happens to the guy enough times, equates to "Well, if I want a relationship, then I guess I need to learn how to be an asshole."

 

The CL article was a pretty good description of that dynamic.

[Bekah]

I think here in the Rebellion, we females lean towards NOT being those stereotypes and not fitting into those generalities, but we are a subsegment of women, rather than a representative sampling of all women.We cant take what we say here and extrapolate that to be a majority viewpoint of our gender.

Also, as a woman who has been attracted to and rejected by one of those stereotypical women, and has also had the misfortune of being the rejector of a different woman and then bearing the brunt of the "heartless bitch" diatribe because she was angry bc I didnt reciprocate her feelings....there is truth in both sides and too much of it can and will get very old and you just give up....luckily for me, my primary romantic relationship is already established, so rejection is a little less painful, but I still feel like I am not attractive enough to be seen as worthy by those stereotypical "hot" girls (or boys if I was looking for them) and having been thin and more stereotypically attractive physically, until my late 20's, I know how I am seen differently, like Waldo said, and now my personality has to make up for what I lack in physical appearance, and thankfully I am too unaware to not put it all out there, but lots of people of both genders, dont even look at me twice...so it goes both ways and it's a societal issue, not a gender one.

[Missmouse]

I think here in the Rebellion, we females lean towards NOT being those stereotypes and not fitting into those generalities, but we are a subsegment of women, rather than a representative sampling of all women.We cant take what we say here and extrapolate that to be a majority viewpoint of our gender.

 

I love this.  Maybe that's why I don't understand a lot of this argument.  I've never complained that 'all men are assholes', because I don't believe it to be true.  I've never led a guy on while complaining about being in crappy relationships with abusive assholes, because I don't enter into those types of relationships.  And I don't know any women who do these things either. 

 

So, when I hear that this is an occurance that happens ALL THE TIME to men, I'm left scratching my head like whaaaaa???

[insanity]

Leave it to Bekah to find the underlying understanding on both sides... :-)

[Bekah]

Leave it to Bekah to find the underlying understanding on both sides... :-)

awww thank you

this is where my inner nerd is thriving alive and well...issues in gender and society (and mental illness) are my two dearest passions in life.

[Bekah]

not to mention I have life experiences to rival people twice my age...I've seen a lot of shit, unfortunately.

[Machete]

^^^^^^ All of that = Yup! You truly are the Adorable One (seriously, I'm going to ask the mods to change your name to that when you're not looking some day)

I wish I knew you IRL too.

 

Haha. You better not.

 

Machete - I really wasn't talking to you at all. I was responding to the Craigslist Nice Guy article, which basically indicates that if you offer a woman "emotional closeness" (which I call friendship), she is obliged to give you "physical closeness" (sex).

I apologize if you thought I was attributing those thoughts to you. But...nope. You're good. I did think it was interesting that you chose the CL article to back up some of your points though, as it seems to be the complete opposite of your actual opinion. (?)

 

No need for apologies, miss. It allowed us to expound upon the topic. That's how we got to page 60, and it makes backreading a huge pain. But I do have those thoughts. (I have this weird dynamic in my head where ideas appear in paradoxes.) I'm an involuntary nice guy. I'm not proud of it, but it's who I am. Invertebrates didn't grow a spine overnight; it takes years and years of hard evolution to do that.

 

But that's the real point - if you are only spending time with a women, and being her friend, in the hopes that you will one day get into her pants... are you really a friend?

 

That's why there's a big difference between nice people and "Nice Guys".  If a man feels used by a woman who leans on him for emotional support, and doesn't give him sex, he has the perfect solution at this fingertips: Stop hanging out with her.  Continuing to do so, and then complaining that he isn't getting a payout, is really, really disingenuous.

 

 

And as for women complaining that there are no nice guys, that's just generalized mumbo jumbo.  People are allowed to be attracted - and NOT attracted - to anyone they want. And when attraction goes unrequited, the "they just don't want nice guys' meme is a way to place the blame on the object of affection, rather than on the person with the unrequited feelings.

 

Yes, if a woman leads a guy on by hinting that there is a romantic relationship, when there really isnt one, she's obviously not a very good person.  But in most cases that I've seen, she has been clear that she offers friendship only.  But the guy keeps hanging around hoping for more.  And when he doesn't get it, SHE is labled a heartless biatch.

 

The CL article was a pretty good description of that dynamic.

 

Hope is pretty much what keeps them hanging on. Like I said, love makes us terrible decision-makers. Who would ever think that sucking dick for drugs is a good idea? But for some reason junkies still do it.

 

Here are two comic strips that illustrate the nice guy perspective:

 

 

 

 

not to mention I have life experiences to rival people twice my age...I've seen a lot of shit, unfortunately.

 

The primary source of all my interpersonal interaction for five years: my iPod and my right hand.

 

Speaking of rejection, I can totally see why a "heartless she-bitch" would keep a "Nice Guy" around on the hook. I have had the opportunity to be the object of attraction, without me being attracted to the opposing party. It dawned upon me that it was actually much harder for me to reject the person, and would rather have the person reject me. So I proceeded to start acting like a little shit, hoping that she'll eventually get sick of it and reject me. (I still had to do it in the end.) Maybe it's just me being a nice guy again, preferring to take the rejection rather than be the one to dish it out. But maybe that's also what she was thinking; she'd rather be rejected than reject. (I will never know.) Maybe with her, it was all about who the "bad person" (the one doing the rejecting) was going to be in the breakup. A stalemate between who wanted to be the asshole.

[Bekah]

Haha. You better not.

haha I was just about to ask the higher ups to do it too! Party pooper

[Liberator]

Can I just say… some guys are just not "closers"

 

You wait around cause you like them and then someone else comes along you don't like as much but knows how to "close the deal" and you just go with it because you are tired of the other guy dragging his feet.

[Spark]

There is a feedback loop that creates both shyness and confidence. Skinny little guys who don't have over the top personalities seem to invariably become shy, as do many fat guys. The feedback they receive from their words and actions drives them that way.

 

This. As the twig is bent and bent and bent and bent, so groweth the tree. Eventually I just decided that I wasn't good enough (whatever the hell that means) and gave up. Now I mostly work on my own stuff, improving myself while trying to banish any need/desire for a relationship, because that little voice that says, "Well, you're just not good enough" is so damn persistent thanks to very little coming along to give it a reasonable dispute.

 

I'm looking forward to the rest of Waldo's experience as well, that as I lose weight I gain confidence and people see that. More interesting experiments ahoy!

 

Didn't mean to get all "woe is me" here, neither. Here's a hedgehog!

 

[Bekah]

This. As the twig is bent and bent and bent and bent, so groweth the tree. Eventually I just decided that I wasn't good enough (whatever the hell that means) and gave up. Now I mostly work on my own stuff, improving myself while trying to banish any need/desire for a relationship, because that little voice that says, "Well, you're just not good enough" is so damn persistent thanks to very little coming along to give it a reasonable dispute.

 

I'm looking forward to the rest of Waldo's experience as well, that as I lose weight I gain confidence and people see that. More interesting experiments ahoy!

 

Didn't mean to get all "woe is me" here, neither. Here's a hedgehog!

 

Eh it sucks to be in that situation *hugs* and YAY hedgehogs

[Guzzi]

Oh Spark! I'm so sorry to hear that. Let me get this feedback loop thing started right now.

I LOVE reading your posts. Your humour, and your positivity bring a ray of sunshine into my day. You constantly make me smile, and every time I see your username come up in a thread, I think "Yay! It's my buddy Spark" because I'm happy to see (read?) you.

My opinion of you is based on your personality, without any prejudice from your physical appearance. I know you're overweight, I've seen your pictures, but because I don't see you when we interact, it doesn't really play into my perception of you.

I think you're a lovely guy. I'm glad we're "forum buddies" as you put it, and I think everything Waldo said will come true for you too. You just need to start having a little more faith in yourself. And don't wait for the weight to come off before you start trying to work on your confidence. You have so much to offer Right Now.

Seriously man, think about this. I have no reason whatsoever to say this to you other than that it's true. I don't flatter, and I don't "play games", if I say something it's because I genuinely mean it.

I hope this brings a smile to your face.

[SevenofSeven]

Righto then, seriously if any of you guys or gals were to ever be in the same space as me, I would buy you all a drink and we could debate the why's and wherefore's of shy v asshole.

My fella was definitely not shy, just loved to socialise, but he definitely wasn't a Bro, when I met him he had just come out of a 5 year engagement to a woman who by all accounts and purposes was a living bitch. She had broken his heart and almost killed his spirit. He was in a bad place so the very first time I met him he was aloof and barely looked at me, I was just indifferent because that's how I come across because of my shyness.

He wasn't looking and neither was I, we just kinda ran in the same circles every now and then, finally we just got talking. The fact he wasn't a shearer and rode bikes ( CBR 1100 ) at the time was in his favour. We just happened.

Take heart shy guys, I was definitely a wall flower, neither up front enough to go with the "make the first move" but confident enough to tell the Bro's to fuck off, which of course earned me the "frigid bitch" title, but coming from shearers........meh.

I totally agree with Guzzi, my days begin with you guys and ends with you guys, I love your posts and the fact that you are sharing your journey with us, whatever that may be, losing weight, getting fit or lifting heavy.

1st round is on me!

[Guzzi]

Second round's mine!

[Zorch]

 

I've always believed in only having sex with someone who wants it at least as much as, if not more than, you do. Consequently, I've never wooed or courted or dated anyone with the intent of convincing her to have sex with me. I've always had a very strange relationship with females.

 

I don't see this as strange at all - this is similar to my attitude, and the attitude that I believe more people should have.  During the times when I was single, there were plenty of occasions where someone would have been willing to have sex with me, where I deliberately avoided the situation, as I didn't see them as the sort of person I could be with over a longer period of time, while it was clear that their expectations were different.  I don't believe in using false pretenses to get others to do what I want, and it sounds like you don't either.

 

Incidentally, if all you cared about was sex, it would actually be a lot easier to go up and talk to someone - because, well, plenty of fish and all that.  If you see individuals you are attracted to as actual persons with distinct, individual value - the prospect of rejection and missing out on all the good things that one particular person has to offer becomes a lot more meaningful and painful - and hence lends itself to nervousness, etc.  Because of this, I'm if the opinion that having least a little nervousness when talking to someone in that context, is actually a GOOD thing - as long as the nervousness doesn't paralyze you into inaction.

[Machete]

Can I just say… some guys are just not "closers"

 

You wait around cause you like them and then someone else comes along you don't like as much but knows how to "close the deal" and you just go with it because you are tired of the other guy dragging his feet.

 

Yup. Non-closer, right here. Story of my life.

 

I don't see this as strange at all - this is similar to my attitude, and the attitude that I believe more people should have.  During the times when I was single, there were plenty of occasions where someone would have been willing to have sex with me, where I deliberately avoided the situation, as I didn't see them as the sort of person I could be with over a longer period of time, while it was clear that their expectations were different.  I don't believe in using false pretenses to get others to do what I want, and it sounds like you don't either.

 

Incidentally, if all you cared about was sex, it would actually be a lot easier to go up and talk to someone - because, well, plenty of fish and all that.  If you see individuals you are attracted to as actual persons with distinct, individual value - the prospect of rejection and missing out on all the good things that one particular person has to offer becomes a lot more meaningful and painful - and hence lends itself to nervousness, etc.  Because of this, I'm if the opinion that having least a little nervousness when talking to someone in that context, is actually a GOOD thing - as long as the nervousness doesn't paralyze you into inaction.

 

Well the strange relationship was supposed to be an independent stand-alone statement. It's complicated. Haha. I've been on two dates in my life (neither led to a second), because I just see the whole dating thing as our inner animals initiating the courtship process, which is essentially a human male convincing a human female to allow him to do disgusting things to her (probably starting with exchanging spit and eventually leading to putting a blood-filled penis inside her vagina). I see the act of sexual intercourse as a disposable pleasure, not a meaningful pursuit, but I see people as individual entities with their own stories to tell. That's why I just resort to masturbation; I can treat my right hand like trash without feeling bad about it. By maintaining a passive stance, I ensure that I only get women who are attracted enough to me to forgo the traditional human courtship process. Or the occasional nymphomaniac stalking for her next prey. Either way, someone I wouldn't have to goad into coitus. It severely limits my options, but I've got shit to do.

[SevenofSeven]

Consideration.

[Thrillho]

A lot of guys don't feel the need to be "closers".  If the girl isn't willing to step out of her comfort zone even slightly and make a reciprocal effort, when she wanders off to a guy who will do it for her, we're probably better off.

[Machete]

Ladies, what's the verdict on the "squint face"?

 

[Thrillho]

Can't tell if intense...

 

OR CONFUSED

[Raev]

Intensely confused?

[Bekah]

hah I refuse to play the "name that face" game....I fail horrifically! I will be interested to see the consensus here.

[Liberator]

A lot of guys don't feel the need to be "closers".  If the girl isn't willing to step out of her comfort zone even slightly and make a reciprocal effort, when she wanders off to a guy who will do it for her, we're probably better off.

Ouch! I guess there are a few guys from my college days out there better off without dating me! 

My feeling is if a guy doesn't feel strong enough about me to try to "close the deal" and make a move, especially if there is other men vying for my attention and I had given him special attention, I was better off too. 

 

Ladies, what's the verdict on the "squint face"?

 

 

 

 

Ahhhhhh……….. No! They look like they are in pain or constipated, not appealing. I prefer the mischievous grin!