A Discussion about God

[Korosia]

EDIT: It seems to be the general consensus from the community that this sort of topic isn't really appropraite for the NF forums, due their somewhat personal nature and potential to cause rifts in the community. Having thought it through, I agree with them. If anyone has any questions/queries/opinions feel free to PM me

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Hi all As you may have noticed, a few of us accidently hijacked Daffy's "What do you REALLY want out of life?" thread and started a discussion on God/Christianity. So instead of distrupting a perfectly good thread, here is one dedicated just to that discussion.

If anyone's got any specific questions about Christianity, I'd love to answer them! Alternativly, if you want to put up your own spiritual view, that would be cool too!

For anyone who wants the original context of this thread, you can see the start of the discussion here:

http://nerdfitness.com/community/showthread.php?10450-What-do-you-REALLY-want-out-of-life&p=148472&viewfull=1#post148472

[Korosia]

Now, this bit might get a little confusing because I'm going to try and continue on the discussion from the previous thread So bear with me if this gets a little crazy!

There was a while that through more personal study of the Bible and other texts that I just didn't care for actual church services with one leader (minister, padre, rabbi, ...) and cared more for small groups with equal leadership or individual studies.

I completely agree! I was once told that you can judge how good a church is from how much they get people to read the bible on their own. I'm really lucky in as much as the church that I go to is really good - there are *so* many events and meetings organised to help us read through the Bible and discuss it with small groups. We're also all encouraged to meet up with the Student Workers for one-to-one's, which is *really* helpful. You get to ask the questions that are important to you, and get different people's ideas on it.

that led me to question whether or not there was just a natural universal "good" or if some being greater than us created all or most religions within each culture's separate understandings of the world.

I guess from a Christian perspective I would say that everyone is connected to God, which is why every culture creates a religion. I'm not going to claim to know much about any other religion, but a lot of these religions are fundementally different from Christianity in as much as they all rely on us doing something to earn our way into heaven. Christianity, on the other hand, realises that there is no way we're ever going to be perfect. Instead of heaping rules and regulations, and telling us what we can and can't do, and saying that if you follow these rules perfectly then you'll get into heaven, it says that by turning back to God you get into heaven. That simple.

A lot of people think that this means we can be terrible people and still get into heaven, despite all the bad things that we do. But there's a suitable differnece between just saying that you've turned back, and actually turning back. When you truely turn back, you change how you live completely. Like I've mentioned, I got into fitness because I realised that I could say I'd turned back, but still go on doing the same bad things I'd always done. There was no way I was ever going to be perfect, and I was still going to screw up all the time, but I knew that if I had really turned back, then I had to be willing to try.

It's just so hard for me, considering the scope of our universe, that there is a God like the God of Christianity.

I've heard a lot of my friends say similar things when we have similar discussions, so I was wondering if you could go into a bit more detail on it? It would be really interesting to know what people thoughts about this were.

This is a bit off-topic, but there was actually a really interesting article recently in Time magazine about a "different kind of heaven". Many contemporary Christians have taken the view that at the End of Days there will be a literal "resurrection of bodies" and so many of their efforts are more activist in doing things like protecting the environment and shaping our corrupted, polluted world into a better place. There were better examples in the article but I've been locked out of my dorm room and don't have access to it now, hahaha. But anyway, it differs slightly from the conventional and stereotypical view of Heaven as that place in the clouds that we will go to and spend all eternity in when we physically die.

This is actually very similar to the way I feel about it. When you look at the creation story (as a side note, I'm definatly not a creationist! I believe the creation story was more of a metaphor for the evolution process), I think that perfect world that God created for us was actually this world. There is so much natural beauty in the world when you get away from the all things human's have done to it. This probably sounds really cliched, but I think times like hanging out with friends in the park, or going for long walks through the forest just for the heck of it or anything like that, I think that's the time when we see a piece of what God's perfect world was suppose to be like. And I think once he comes back and helps correct everything that went wrong, we'll be able to spend our lives like that. And I think that would be awesome

A little heresy is a good thing. I'd say it's essential for any religious belief, both at the organisation level and the individual. If you don't question your beliefs, that makes you gullible. We need someone to ask awkward questions about the most deep seated ideas because how else are we to know if they are right? They keep us focused. Without that focus, we're liable to drift away from our ideals.

Homework for everyone - think about what you believe in, and question it. Where did you get those beliefs? Did you form them yourselves or inherit them from outside? Are they still true for you? Christians, think like atheists. Atheists, think like Christians. Perhaps we'll all meet in the middle!

Oh, yay! Homework! That is probably the best way to discover who you are. Explore your beliefs (not just religion but everything), question them. Explore other beliefs and question them. You will very rarely end up with any actual answers, but you will also rarely walk away without understanding yourself more.

I couldn't agree more!

[unicornassassin]

Eeeeep. I see this going nowhere good fast. Prove me wrong, NFers!

ETA: Nevermind... I read the thread (duh!) and.... well, nevermind.

You are all so cool!

[Loren Wade]

Even as a Christian, I'm not sure how I feel about this thread. I do know one thing, if it goes downhill, it'll get shut down fast. Not being a downer, as I hope it's useful for someone.

On a better note, there are actually a lot of Christians on Nerd Fitness. I think I've met most of them because I am so open about my faith. I always hold an open door policy on this stuff, so if you have a question, PM me or ask here and I would be willing to answer questions also.

[oystergirl]

This certainly will be an interesting conversation, but I will say this, as you are very young, you have only lived in a christianity that did not tell you what to do and if you are lucky enough to be in a church that does not tell you what to do that makes you even more lucky. MOST churches in the christian faith with Roman Catholicism being the basis for all christianity most certainly tell you what to do and if you review your churches tenets they will say they follow the 10 commandments and those are certainly telling you what to do.

They were also born to usurp the power of women and place women in the category of soulless chattle who were lower than man. They were born to lie to people and make them believe, in obvious contradiction to the reality that MAN came from MAN and not from the loins of a woman.

I would also love to have someone address the fact that previous to the last 3,000 years God was a woman and goddess worship existed at the same time as Abraham....goddess myths have been overwritten with god myths and every single religious culture takes the basis of their creation myth as an over written goddess myth twisted to demonize women and put them into their place. The bible explicitly describes mass slaughter of those groups of people who did not believe in the male god or practiced an alternative religion. That is the basis of male dominated religion, take over a city and slaughter every single person in that city, oh except of course the virgins who were forced to "marry" (aka raped and confined) into this new male dominated world where they were punished with death if they were not a virgin or if they committed adultery or where raped, but of course their husbands could take multiple wives.

I wonder if like geneology, people go back in the archeology history of their religion to see its basis in the real world, exclusive of the bible, which of course has been completely rewritten and edited and expunged whenever a new form of religious class takes power. I have read the bible about 3 times through, studied it extensively as well as the history of human culture, existing myths and the systematic over writing of history to further the cause of conquoring nations. With that said, I wonder how anyone who is spiritually evolved can not look at the atrocities that have been blessed by their religions and not question them. These atrocities are not confined to one religion but participated in by all. I love the universal spirit that is God, but I am absolutely not a participant in religion. Remember, GOD did not create religion...man did.

Just some interesting points of study to help expand the discussion of God. There is more than one view of God(dess)...I am in no way trying to attack anyone's beliefs, as I think a belief in a higher spirit is a normal thing for all humans, but it is important to view it all in context.

[Artinum]

I've come across the idea before that no religion has it right, and that all of them are just attempts to describe some cosmic truth. This is pretty fair to me. The problem with religion is the human element - when people get so wrapped up in the rituals and the written word and don't realise these parts aren't important. Fundamentalists bring down any philosophy.

[msuroo]

Even as a Christian, I'm not sure how I feel about this thread. I do know one thing, if it goes downhill, it'll get shut down fast. Not being a downer, as I hope it's useful for someone.

On a better note, there are actually a lot of Christians on Nerd Fitness. I think I've met most of them because I am so open about my faith. I always hold an open door policy on this stuff, so if you have a question, PM me or ask here and I would be willing to answer questions also.

Yeah, there's a lot of good folks here, both Christian and otherwise, but even on the most civil of message boards, religion and politics are generally taboo topics of discussion - they just turn heated too easily.

Anyway, I decided years ago to start keeping my beliefs to myself. I'm comfortable with how I live my life, and that's all that matters to me.

[Loren Wade]

Yeah, there's a lot of good folks here, both Christian and otherwise, but even on the most civil of message boards, religion and politics are generally taboo topics of discussion - they just turn heated too easily.

Anyway, I decided years ago to start keeping my beliefs to myself. I'm comfortable with how I live my life, and that's all that matters to me.

They are always "taboo", agreed.

I understand keeping them to yourself. I personally can't. It's so much of who I am that it would literally be impossible for me to hide. Either way, no matter the beliefs, people, or whatever... we're all still one Rebellion and we all love each other. I think that's what's important.

[herpius_derpius7]

I've heard a lot of my friends say similar things when we have similar discussions, so I was wondering if you could go into a bit more detail on it? It would be really interesting to know what people thoughts about this were.

Gladly! I can't vouch for whether or not my reasons for that statement will be similar to theirs or not, but this is the general consensus that a few of my friends and me have reached on the subject.

The way we generally have been taught about the Christian God (remember, I was raised in a Catholic school) is that God cares for all mankind, that God created us in God's image, that God gave this world to us, etc, etc. However, given the relative size of the earth (and thus us) compared to the vast cosmos out beyond the limits of what we can detect -- and even given the immensely short amount of time that humans have lived given the age of the universe -- , it just seems so improbable that God would have chosen us to be God's chosen people, to be created in God's image, to have this special privilege -- and then, as I sometimes mention, do I really want to believe in a God that, in a sense, "plays favorites"? Why do I get to be special? Why me instead of the plants, the animals, even the dust on the ground? What about potential life in other galaxies, other planets? I don't doubt it exists. The universe is so much older and larger and more complex than we could possibly ever imagine. If God created everything, God should view everything equally.

(Admitedly, some of these arguments sound decidedly weaker when written than they did in my head! )

Like I mentioned earlier, I hesitate to use the term "God" when referring to what I personally believe, but my own opinion is that "God" did create everything (everything!) in God's image because that's what God is -- existence. God is in existence and God is existence. That's why earlier I referred to God as an "essence", one that permeates throughout the universe. I wrote this earlier, but we all come from the same cosmic dust.

I feel like there is definitely some truth in all religions, that their most basic, fundamental beliefs are the same, that they are different paths to the same, ultimate goal -- a sense of enlightenment, of enrichment, of unification.

However, I still feel that even admitting the existence of a God Proper, we still have to deal with the same existential problem: Do we have an objective purpose? If one argues around our reason for existence being to glorify God/bring about God's kingdom, then we still have to find meaning for God's existence. One can also argue that our purpose is to help the poor/improve the earth or anything along those lines, but I honestly don't feel that "helping other people" is a sufficient answer to "why people exist". I don't feel that it gets at the root of the problem.

his probably sounds really cliched, but I think times like hanging out with friends in the park, or going for long walks through the forest just for the heck of it or anything like that, I think that's the time when we see a piece of what God's perfect world was suppose to be like.

Dude, can I please just say that it was this feeling that spurred spiritual beliefs in me in the first place! I went to Maine the summer before my freshman year of college and the whole experience of being outside in nature, undisturbed by man-made pollutants, made me feel. I physically felt the repercussions of my emotions. Like, I'd like awake under the stars on the cliff sides by the ocean, and my throat would clog up like I was going to cry, and I felt wholesome and sound and serene. That's when I started thinking about our human connection to nature and to each other. That's when I realized that humans are intrinsically selfish, but that it is a good thing: In its unperturbed form, it drives us closer to each other and to nature.

And honestly, when it comes down to it, I would call that feeling of well-being, that feeling of being alive, I would call that God*.

*But like I mentioned, I still hesitate to use the term God because it conjures images of a "God Proper", when what I believe in is an energy, and essence. Sorry for being so repetitive, lol. I mean, thinking about it, my beliefs aren't drastically different from Catholic beliefs. They take a different shape, certainly -- they're founded in nature and the cosmos and in energy and vibes -- but they really, truly aren't that different

Also, I'm sorry if anything I said seemed to contradict itself. I've never actually taken the time to write any of this up before, so what makes sense in my head might come out garbled and confusing lol

[Korosia]

as you are very young, you have only lived in a christianity that did not tell you what to do and if you are lucky enough to be in a church that does not tell you what to do that makes you even more lucky.

Very true. For any Christians reading this, please jump in at any point any correct me. I have only been a Christian for a few months, so you may have to excuse my inexperience at certain points.

They were also born to usurp the power of women and place women in the category of soulless chattle who were lower than man. They were born to lie to people and make them believe, in obvious contradiction to the reality that MAN came from MAN and not from the loins of a woman.

From what I understand, historically this has been a problem in a lot of churches. I'm not going to try and explain away their behavour or anything like that. As far as I'm concerned, woman are just as competant at men. Of the Churches I've seen, a lot of them don't treat women any differently to men. I know that probably doesn't really answer your question very well. But there are a lot of churches who don't follow this belief.

I would also love to have someone address the fact that previous to the last 3,000 years God was a woman and goddess worship existed at the same time as Abraham....goddess myths have been overwritten with god myths and every single religious culture takes the basis of their creation myth as an over written goddess myth twisted to demonize women and put them into their place.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer for that one. I'll try and talk to somebody that does and get back to you.

I wonder how anyone who is spiritually evolved can not look at the atrocities that have been blessed by their religions and not question them. These atrocities are not confined to one religion but participated in by all. I love the universal spirit that is God, but I am absolutely not a participant in religion. Remember, GOD did not create religion...man did.

I think one of the fundemental parts of Christianity is that we are suppose to follow Jesus and do what he says, and not what men say. I absolutely hate some of the stuff that people have done in the name of God, from big things like murders and slavery, to smaller things like punishing people for having a baby outside of wedlock, or being gay.

As you said, one of the major problems is that mankind is too willing to twist things for its own gain. People use any position of power -- be it in religion, or government, or economy -- to gain control over those around them.

That's why a lot of churches do put so much emphasis on group reading and discussion. Without one person clearly in charge, there isn't that same level of power. Rather than being an institution, it is just a group of people who are trying to follow Jesus, and live a life like he was trying to live. That's really the main point of Christianity; to follow Jesus, and not give in to the power hungry people who are willing to twist the church for they're own gain.

Either way, no matter the beliefs, people, or whatever... we're all still one Rebellion and we all love each other. I think that's what's important.

I definatly want to reiterate that. Like you said, its such a big part of who I am, and I wanted to discuss it with others and hear their views. But ultimatly the community comes first.

[herpius_derpius7]

I've come across the idea before that no religion has it right, and that all of them are just attempts to describe some cosmic truth. This is pretty fair to me. The problem with religion is the human element - when people get so wrapped up in the rituals and the written word and don't realise these parts aren't important. Fundamentalists bring down any philosophy.

This is what I was trying to say in one of my earlier paragraphs lol

[herpius_derpius7]

OMG this thread is going too fast haha.

From what I understand, historically this has been a problem in a lot of churches. I'm not going to try and explain away their behavour or anything like that. As far as I'm concerned, woman are just as competant at men. Of the Churches I've seen, a lot of them don't treat women any differently to men. I know that probably doesn't really answer your question very well. But there are a lot of churches who don't follow this belief.

It's funny, because even though you say you've only been a Christian for a couple of months, I feel you have a better grasp on it then many that have been Christians their whole lives. I think that comes about because you chose the religion, whereas for me and all of the people I went to school with, it was forced upon them/us. This results in

• rebellion against it
  
• not understanding it
  
• blind faith, which is equal to no faith
  

Also, it needs to be reiterated that there is a difference between one's religion and the concept of the church. The politics of the church have been corrupt throughout all of history, but that should not reflect on Christianity's fundamental values or the perception of the general Christian population.

Furthermore, any spiritual that tells someone what to believe instead of providing nurture and guidance for one's beliefs is not valid. That is my main qualm with most religions establishments. I really enjoyed my Catholic grade school because they told us to question our faiths and think critically about them.

[leadchipmunk]

I completely agree! I was once told that you can judge how good a church is from how much they get people to read the bible on their own. I'm really lucky in as much as the church that I go to is really good - there are *so* many events and meetings organised to help us read through the Bible and discuss it with small groups. We're also all encouraged to meet up with the Student Workers for one-to-one's, which is *really* helpful. You get to ask the questions that are important to you, and get different people's ideas on it.

That was the problem with my old church, we had study groups (though I was too young to really be allowed to go to them at the time and had to stay with the other kids) but they became little more than gossipers and there wasn't much Bible studying going on. When they did study, they all agreed on what the preacher had said about it and nobody had their own thoughts.

I guess from a Christian perspective I would say that everyone is connected to God, which is why every culture creates a religion. I'm not going to claim to know much about any other religion, but a lot of these religions are fundementally different from Christianity in as much as they all rely on us doing something to earn our way into heaven. Christianity, on the other hand, realises that there is no way we're ever going to be perfect. Instead of heaping rules and regulations, and telling us what we can and can't do, and saying that if you follow these rules perfectly then you'll get into heaven, it says that by turning back to God you get into heaven. That simple.

Most religions have some sort of repentance (as you said it includes truly changing your ways) that allows them to go to Heaven or attain Nirvana or whatever else it is they aspire for. Very few, including some Christian denominations, require that you be perfect to go to heaven, and even some (including Jehovah's Witnesses) believe there is almost no possible way to achieve a greatness after life (Witnesses believe that only a certain amount of people total enter heaven, if you take into account how many people have lived and died, the amount of open spaces seems to be nearing zero). Then there are the groups, still including some interpretations of the Christian Bible, that believe that everybody goes to Heaven.

I've heard a lot of my friends say similar things when we have similar discussions, so I was wondering if you could go into a bit more detail on it? It would be really interesting to know what people thoughts about this were.

I can't really comment on this too much. I have heard the same thing, but never really experienced it. My personal guess is to think of only yourself, now expand upon that to include your house and property, then city, county, state (if in the US), country, continent, and keep increasing the magnitude until you are now thinking of the universe as a whole. How minute are you in the great expanse of the universe? Now try to imagine a single being that is the sole creator of everything. Most people will think of a "person" similar to themselves, after all humans are the most powerful and intelligent creature that we know of and has personally met. Even though we are powerful and intelligent, it is near impossible to imagine some person creating and controlling the whole universe. Groups of people (government) can barely properly control a country.

Many contemporary Christians have taken the view that at the End of Days there will be a literal "resurrection of bodies" and so many of their efforts are more activist in doing things like protecting the environment and shaping our corrupted, polluted world into a better place.

So, you are saying the contemporary Christian's End of Days is actually going to be a Zombie Apocalypse? We will be so prepared for it! Sorry, couldn't pass that up.

There is so much natural beauty in the world when you get away from the all things human's have done to it. This probably sounds really cliched, but I think times like hanging out with friends in the park, or going for long walks through the forest just for the heck of it or anything like that, I think that's the time when we see a piece of what God's perfect world was suppose to be like. And I think once he comes back and helps correct everything that went wrong, we'll be able to spend our lives like that. And I think that would be awesome

I couldn't think of a place more perfect than this world's natural beauty. It is stated in the bible that after so long a time after the rapture everyone, including those sent to Hell, will be returned to a perfect Earth, a new Garden of Eden of sorts.

[msuroo]

Also, saw this the other day - I figure the NF demographic can appreciate the humor, regardless of your beliefs.

[herpius_derpius7]

So, you are saying the contemporary Christian's End of Days is actually going to be a Zombie Apocalypse? We will be so prepared for it! Sorry, couldn't pass that up.

OMG but we actually will tho

[Korosia]

However, given the relative size of the earth (and thus us) compared to the vast cosmos out beyond the limits of what we can detect -- and even given the immensely short amount of time that humans have lived given the age of the universe -- , it just seems so improbable that God would have chosen us to be God's chosen people, to be created in God's image, to have this special privilege

This is something that I was bothered by for a long time, for much the same reasons. But now I kind of think that maybe it was nesseccary to create humans. I'm not sure if this is going to come out at all sensibly, but hey Basially, I kind of think that God didn't/couldn't just 'flip a switch' and there were humans. He had to go through the process of creating them. I thinkt that that may be what the sciencfic history of the cosmo's is: God couldn't make humans until he's made the Earth, which he couldn't do until he'd made the sun, which he couldn't do until he's made the galaxies and so on. I guess that the fact that human life is so improbable kind of explains why there are so many 'duff' planets about: to get one to work, you would have to create millions. I guess its much in the same way that IF fertilisation works. They put several eggs in there, so that way you will actually get one that works.

That probably wasn't the best explanation ever :/ As for other lifeforms? To be honest, I don't really know. For a long time I thought about it, and then I realised that it wasn't something we could really know anything about right now. I don't think the idea that there are other life-forms like us defeats the idea of God - why shouldn't he create more than one? I guess I just realised there was no way of knowing right now, so I focused on more important things. Sorry if that's a bit of a dissattisfying answer.

[Loren Wade]

Guys, I really don't see this thread going anywhere productive. I think we should lay it to rest before it gets closed down. For the good of Nerd Fitness.

[leadchipmunk]

Loren, Msuroo and the community at large - I'm addressing you first because I believe this is the most important thing I'm going to say here. If this becomes an argument, please have it locked down or deleted or whatever else. I want to cause no harm to this community. I'm actively participating in it because I believe that most of the people here are mature enough to accept this as an exchange of ideas and that we are not trying to cause problems. Nobody is being asked to participate or defend themselves or their beliefs. It is such a rare treat to find so many people with such differing beliefs that can civilly discuss this taboo topic without it ending in a fight, that it is too much for me to be able to pass up. So, once again, if this gets out of hand, I apologize for my part in it and will completely respect any moderator's and the community as a whole's decision to stop it where it lies.

OysterGirl - I have noticed that about the religions having roots in goddess worship. I'm not going to debate that because everything people believe these days have been adapted from a previous belief, changed (at least somewhat) and possibly respun into the new beliefs. I will agree with Kurosia when he said "As you said, one of the major problems is that mankind is too willing to twist things for its own gain. People use any position of power -- be it in religion, or government, or economy -- to gain control over those around them."

Korosia - Herpius_Derpius has it right. You are very knowledgeable in the religion, especially for someone joining it so recently. You understand what took me 15+ years to figure out, and you have some interesting insight that I would have never thought of if it wasn't for this discussion.

[leadchipmunk]

Guys, I really don't see this thread going anywhere productive. I think we should lay it to rest before it gets closed down. For the good of Nerd Fitness.

As the great Dread Pirate Roberts once said, "As you wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish..."

This went a lot further than I thought it would (not saying it is a bad thing, but it has the chance of it), and it may be favorable to end it before this does get out of hand.

Thank you everyone for the insight, I will treasure this community for its acceptance of everything. And as I have said before, if anyone has anything they want to discuss with me, feel free to leave it in a PM.

[Korosia]

Guys, I really don't see this thread going anywhere productive. I think we should lay it to rest before it gets closed down. For the good of Nerd Fitness.

I definatly don't want to do anything to hurt the community, and if you think that that is starting to happen, I'll happily stop. But it seems to me that at the minute we've got a good discussion going, and people are responding well to it

Korosia - Herpius_Derpius has it right. You are very knowledgeable in the religion, especially for someone joining it so recently. You understand what took me 15+ years to figure out, and you have some interesting insight that I would have never thought of if it wasn't for this discussion.

Thank you both I'm really glad I've been able to help out Though I can't really claim all the credit; I'm really lucky to have such a good church, and an amazing group of friends who are willing to put up with my hours of questioning!

[dshale]

I think the reason these topics can head south is perception of what they stand for. I am a christian and a conservative republican. I think the most misunderstood aspect is that I don't want to force change on anyone, but if they are willing to listen I am willing to tell them why I believe what I believe. If that touches them then they can investigate further else they reject it but made that decision with some knowledge.

[Korosia]

As the great Dread Pirate Roberts once said, "As you wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish..."

This went a lot further than I thought it would (not saying it is a bad thing, but it has the chance of it), and it may be favorable to end it before this does get out of hand.

Thank you everyone for the insight, I will treasure this community for its acceptance of everything. And as I have said before, if anyone has anything they want to discuss with me, feel free to leave it in a PM.

Agreed I'd like to thank you all; this has both been fun and encouraging! Drop me a PM and I too would be more than happy to answer any questions or just generally discuss things with anyone.

[leadchipmunk]

I think the reason these topics can head south is perception of what they stand for. I am a christian and a conservative republican. I think the most misunderstood aspect is that I don't want to force change on anyone, but if they are willing to listen I am willing to tell them why I believe what I believe. If that touches them then they can investigate further else they reject it but made that decision with some knowledge.

That is the view of most Christians that I know, and many of the people I know of other religions. Most people do not want to force anybody to change their beliefs, this isn't the Crusades anymore.

Kurosia and myself, possibly others, had stated that we are actively not trying to change anybody, but are willing to discuss our views further if anyone else wants to, though we may have not stated that in this thread. I believe the other participants in this conversation had implied the same, but still had not explicitly said so in this thread.

But as per Loren's wishes, and possibly those of the community majority, I will personally end my part in the more philosophical aspect of this thread. I will still comment on posts like this if I feel the need to, but anything deeper I will recommend that it goes through a more private means.

[WizardTrip]

Guys, I really don't see this thread going anywhere productive. I think we should lay it to rest before it gets closed down. For the good of Nerd Fitness.

Just to add my quick thought in, I could not agree more. Of course, less than 2 hours of a thread started, ~22 posts and I don't even want to know what the word count on this is? WOW! Impressed. With that said, I too am a Christian, a preacher kid ("son of a preacher man"), and a missionary kid (well....was....guess I'm not a 'kid' anymore). I have told him, and will say it again....I have been very impressed and inspired by Loren's openness to his faith. I tend to hold back more often than I should, but I never hide behind it. However, like others have voiced, I'm not sure I see this thread going anywhere. As mature as the NF community is, there are some topics that will simply unravel in a way you could never predict.....and this may be one of them.

[RaeVynn]

Benchmarks of a valid religion:

Does it connect you to the divine?

Does it make you a better person?

Does it help you play nice with others?

Answer yes to all three... we're good.

and that's all I'm saying on the subject.