Group Read: Ender's Game- May Contain Spoilers!

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Hello NF book clubbers!

This is the thread to discuss this month's book, Ender's Game.

Out of respect for others who may have not yet finished the book, if you are going to post spoilers in your post, type spoiler alert: then change the color of the text following to white.  The result will be the following.

 

Spoiler alert: This book is awesome

 

You can then highlight the text with your mouse pointer to read it. We have bbcode for it, but I can't get it to work.

 

Enjoy!

[Jakob Kopfeld]

Someone from 'round here recommended this book to me as a great read. I'd love to join, next time I got 10 bucks to spare I'll buy it. 

[ICB]

Ender's game was one of those formative books for me. I first read it in high school and I end up rereading it at least once a year. As a kid, I was always in gifted and accelerated classes (read: NERD) so I really identified with Ender and the kids at Battle School. The idea that being smart made you feel excluded or pressured was something that I felt a lot as a kid.

Since it's still early in the read, I'll stay away from spoilery questions and instead ask a meta-question: do you separate the author from the work?

This is particularly timely because Orson Scott Card recently became the center of controversy when he was picked to write the new Superman comic. His long history of anti-gay comments made him an unpopular choice, but I think it's pretty unlikely that the comic itself would have contained any political statements at all. Ender's Game has always seemed to include a lot of inclusive messages as it features students from different backgrounds, religions, and genders working together.

Should it bother us that the author holds unpopular political views if those views are not also apparent in the text?

[Nomad Jay]

I reckon if I deeply researched the political viewpoints and leanings of every writer/author/actor/musician/what-have-you whose works I enjoy or appreciate, I'd find something about their personal paradigm that I disagree with even if it doesn't show up in their work. What really amuses me is that no one made such a ruckus about Mr Card writing issues of Ultimate Iron Man. Perhaps Superman simply carries more cultural weight.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I do separate him from the work and Ender's Game is still my favorite book. However, I did stop calling him my favorite author once I found out about those sentiments.

[CalvinHobbes]

Gah I'm mad this book was chosen now. I'm hooked but need sleep ;-)

[joedog]

What a great book! Its been on my 'to read' list for a long time but I never did until I now. I'm not good at starting discussions but I'm ready to jump into one.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I'll start a topic then: What does everyone think of Ender's idea of retribution/defending himself?  He tends to avoid conflict but when he needs to act, it is swiftly, decisively, and so hard that the other person is not going to screw with him again.

[WildColonialGrrl]

Has anyone read the whole series? I picked up the second book and after a chapter was thinking 'oh no not again' couldn't keep going. I might read the prequel that has just come out though because what I really want to know is what happened to the earth to start this off.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Here is a list of all the books in the series:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender%27s_Game_series

 

I have read 1-9 and 11, which encompass both the Ender and Shadow Sagas, a book of short stories, and Ender in Exile (which fills a gap between books 1&2 of the Ender Saga). I really need to get around to reading the rest and they may be the next books on my list. The books of the Enderverse are easily my favorite series of books, beating out LoTR by a good margin.

 

If you're interested in further reading after Ender's Game, I'd reccomend reading the Shadow Saga, which follows Bean and Earth, before the rest of the Ender Saga.  They're the best 4 books in the series beyond Ender's Game.

[joedog]

I'll start a topic then: What does everyone think of Ender's idea of retribution/defending himself?  He tends to avoid conflict but when he needs to act, it is swiftly, decisively, and so hard that the other person is not going to screw with him again.

 

I have a friend who has this theory about how you just have to be 10% crazier than your potential attacker to stay safe. Her credentials come from commuting for years on the Metro in DC. I thought about that when I read your question. It's clear that Ender's will to survive is very strong. He doesn't enjoy what he has to do to survive like some of the other characters but he is willing to do it.

[AverageFish]

Yay, a book I 've read ( just a few weeks ago, too) so I can follow along without adding another book to my reading list or worrying about spoilers!

[Nomad Jay]

Ender's martial philosophy reminds me a bit of Roosevelt: "If you must hit, by God, do not hit small." In other words, if you're in a position where force is the only option, make sure you strike with enough force to make sure whomever it is you're hitting doesn't come at you again.

[Max Power]

I finished the book last night, I enjoyed it, but I don't know if I'll be reading the rest of the series.  

 

I think it's easy to empathize with Ender that his swift and brutal attacks were the best way to solve those situations because we are seeing those events from his point of view.  But if we were just reading an article about a six year old boy killing another boy in a fight, it would be a lot harder to agree with it.  Ender even touches on that a bit towards the end when he's comparing the billions of bugger dead that no one questions compared to the two boys that are killed that the prosecution uses as evidence against colonel graff.  

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Ender's martial philosophy reminds me a bit of Roosevelt: "If you must hit, by God, do not hit small." In other words, if you're in a position where force is the only option, make sure you strike with enough force to make sure whomever it is you're hitting doesn't come at you again.

 

 

I have a friend who has this theory about how you just have to be 10% crazier than your potential attacker to stay safe. Her credentials come from commuting for years on the Metro in DC. I thought about that when I read your question. It's clear that Ender's will to survive is very strong. He doesn't enjoy what he has to do to survive like some of the other characters but he is willing to do it.

 

I personally share the philosophy completely.  If you're going resort to violence, do so with overwhelming force such that it prevents further violence in the future.  It only goes so far though, most of the time you don't want to permanently cripple someone, just make them think two or three times of ever doing it again, so far as school yard/fist fights go. However, if someone possibly poses a threat to me or mine on the level of permanent damage, like if someone broke into my house at night, all bets are off.

 

For me it was because I got bullied a bit early in life, in elementary school, because I was one of the nerdy quiet kids that shied away from confrontation. I got beat up in 3rd or 4th grade, which brought things to my parents attention. From then on I was raised never to hit first, but if someone did hit me, I was to get the last hit. I was to finish the fight. From then on I did just that and I've only ever been in 3 more fights since then. I may not have decimated the kid I was fighting, but I hit hard enough and got enough good hits in that people knew I wasn't an easy target and it wasn't worth it to really try to pick a fight with me. I'm pretty sure this is why I like the book so much, I relate so well to the underdog that got his butt kicked when younger.

[guest439437484421]

i'm a bit behind, but i jsut bought the book for my kindle.  we'll see if i can get it read relatively quickly.  i've read it before, but that was years ago.

[Georges]

I finally made it to the library!  I'll be back to this thread... soon.

[Josh_C]

Ender's game was one of those formative books for me. I first read it in high school and I end up rereading it at least once a year. As a kid, I was always in gifted and accelerated classes (read: NERD) so I really identified with Ender and the kids at Battle School. The idea that being smart made you feel excluded or pressured was something that I felt a lot as a kid.

Since it's still early in the read, I'll stay away from spoilery questions and instead ask a meta-question: do you separate the author from the work?

This is particularly timely because Orson Scott Card recently became the center of controversy when he was picked to write the new Superman comic. His long history of anti-gay comments made him an unpopular choice, but I think it's pretty unlikely that the comic itself would have contained any political statements at all. Ender's Game has always seemed to include a lot of inclusive messages as it features students from different backgrounds, religions, and genders working together.

Should it bother us that the author holds unpopular political views if those views are not also apparent in the text?

 

As a long-time Superman fan (although I don't read the comics anymore) this was the best news I had read in a while. I find it ridiculous that people would not read something because of the author's views. There was a comment on one blog where the person summed it up nicely: Orson Scott Card is just an outspoken bigot. If you think there aren't bigots working in every industry, and working on every project you love, you're delusional. That's my thought. BUT, obviously the issue with OSC is that because he has so much money, he can spread his views. So the question becomes, does our disagreement with something he believes in mean we shouldn't give him money. That's a tougher question. It requires balancing our own pleasure against the possible displeasure of others. Candidly, I'm OK with it. 

 

I'll start a topic then: What does everyone think of Ender's idea of retribution/defending himself?  He tends to avoid conflict but when he needs to act, it is swiftly, decisively, and so hard that the other person is not going to screw with him again.

 

I have only ever been in one fight. It was in high school and I walked away. But this philosophy definitely flashed through my mind.

 

I think it can apply to non-violent situations. I use this approach in my work all the time. As a litigator, most of what I do is very you vs. me. But as a young lawyer, I find myself not holding anything back. My thought process, from the million times I've read E.G., is that I need to show this attorney that I'm not messing around. So I don't ever pull any punches.

 

The same applies in the courtroom for me. When I"m cross examining a witness (except a kid) I don't leave anything on the table. I get in, "hurt" the witness as much as I can, and then stop. Of course, it doesn't apply the whole concept, since it's not like the witness is going to come after me or anything, but it's the general idea of not holding back.

 

Also, not sure how I missed this thread until now. I love this book as much as Corey_D. I've read all the books on that wiki except Earth Unaware. I feel like he is just milking it at this point. Don't bother with the book about gifts. It's horrible.

[Georges]

Ender's game was one of those formative books for me.

Yeah, so the first reaction I had to this book was "how did I miss this during my childhood?" I think it would have made a pretty big impact.

meta-question: do you separate the author from the work?

I generally won't pay for works if I know that I have a strong disagreement with the author. (This means I get their stuff from the library. I've yet to find any musicians that I don't want to support financially who make music that I would want to own.) But I'll still read their stuff. This goes for non-fiction, too, sometimes (yeah, Thomas Friedman, I'm talking 'bout you).

 

 

I'll start a topic then: What does everyone think of Ender's idea of retribution/defending himself?  He tends to avoid conflict but when he needs to act, it is swiftly, decisively, and so hard that the other person is not going to screw with him again.

Maybe it's a good thing I didn't read this as a kid, after all...

I think the danger in this path is defining "unavoidable."

 

(Spoiler tags only work in "More Reply Options") I mean, he manages to avoid conflict with the one person out there who seems to want to pick fights with him (his brother) and knows best how to manipulate him, but he can't avoid conflict with those who are considerably less capable? Really? And, there is the human tendency towards expedience... how much easier is it to say "it was unavoidable" each time?

[WordSmith]

As a member of a Vessel Boarding Search and Seizure (VBSS) team we are taught the best principles to neutralize a threat are speed, suprise, and violence of action. It's simple and effective. I agree with it but then again my views come from boarding crafts with potentialy hostile crews.

[Roflhouse]

The issue with it as a strategy is that if the other person has the same attitude, someone dies. It means situations escalate extremely quickly - you're always bringing a gun to a knife fight. Take for example the current situation on N Korea - thank god no one is saying act violently and decisively, or we'd be at war.

I read a essay recently about Ender's game, link is here http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm. The essay argues that Card specifically frames the story so Ender is completely justified and "good" in all his actions. If you read it, what do you think?

One of the ideas it mentions is that Ender is always portrayed as acting coolly and rationally - do you think that's realistic for a child, or potentially a child's fantasy, or denial from someone unable to acknowledge anger? Is Ender a unreliable narrator?

[ICB]

I agree. Ender is always justified. Even his greatest sin, the xenocide of the buggers, is placed entirely at the feet of Colonel Graff.

 

Then again, Ender's Game is a story, I think, about war and about weapons. The lesson I've always taken from Ender's Game is that we can't use weapons irresponsibly. Remember, Ender is a child. By training him and, in the end, lying to him about the real-world consequences of his actions in the ansible, the military command is denying him agency and using him as a very smart, very deadly gun. And as the overly politicized saying goes, guns don't kill people....

 

I don't agree that this attitude necessarily means that situations escalate quickly. If anything, all of the situations Ender finds himself in escalate very slowly. I think a more accurate reading of this philosophy re: North Korea would be that we continue to ignore their posturing until there is no option left but violence. Ender never struck first. Ender's philosophy is to avoid, avoid, avoid until overwhelming force is pried out of him.

[Elastigirl]

I don't agree that this attitude necessarily means that situations escalate quickly. If anything, all of the situations Ender finds himself in escalate very slowly. I think a more accurate reading of this philosophy re: North Korea would be that we continue to ignore their posturing until there is no option left but violence. Ender never struck first. Ender's philosophy is to avoid, avoid, avoid until overwhelming force is pried out of him.

Hmmm . Do you think if Ender had responded first and been more direct in the beginning some situations could have been handled without violence?. Say, if he had talked to the boy who was bullying him, or even just confronted him. I hadn't thought of it that way. But I see some truth. Even at the end scenarion where he as used as a weapon, it was because he was so fed up with the games. Though, I am not to sure what he could have done about that. He tried to opt out of playing, but then was coerced back into it.

[Elastigirl]

I asked my son why he connected with this book. He said it was because he understood how Ender felt isolated. He was smart enough to b a leader, and wanted to lead, but that often made him feel isolated from his friends. Do you think that is a common feeling among nerds-especially the smart, driven, nerd type?

[guest439437484421]

Just finished the book.  :-D